True, only the Israelis are not reactionary. More like actionary if you catch my drift...Turquoise wrote:
There is a lot of dogma on both sides. Essentially, most of it boils down to Palestinians being way too attached to land they lost decades ago and the Israelis being too reactionary.
I really don't think either side can tolerate the other, although Yitzhak Rabin brought us very close to an agreement (until some idiot Zionist killed him).
Regardless, I don't think we can ever hope to see such an agreement again, because there are too many powerful people on both sides that will not be satisfied until one side is dead. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it seems true given past events...
I think they did until Palestinians started blowing themselves up.jonsimon wrote:
Seems to be a popular question, but I haven't seen a single stab at an answer.
So, try your hand at reasoning why Palestine can't live in peace with Israel.
And, if you can't provide a logical answer, I guess that just means Palestine can live in peace with Israel.
I think that's a very selective view of history.Phantom2828 wrote:
I think they did until Palestinians started blowing themselves up.jonsimon wrote:
Seems to be a popular question, but I haven't seen a single stab at an answer.
So, try your hand at reasoning why Palestine can't live in peace with Israel.
And, if you can't provide a logical answer, I guess that just means Palestine can live in peace with Israel.
Dubai, Jordan, Kuwait - i would have thought their standard of living, and personal rights be at least equal to or greater than Israels.ATG wrote:
Because they have outside influences who keep reminding them why they should be pissed, funneling weapons and explosives and fomenting unrest.
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Talking mostly about civil freedoms; voting rights, court systems etc...Iron_Sentinel wrote:
Dubai, Jordan, Kuwait - i would have thought their standard of living, and personal rights be at least equal to or greater than Israels.ATG wrote:
Because they have outside influences who keep reminding them why they should be pissed, funneling weapons and explosives and fomenting unrest.
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Not an attack or debate, just a query.
Fair enough.ATG wrote:
Talking mostly about civil freedoms; voting rights, court systems etc...Iron_Sentinel wrote:
Dubai, Jordan, Kuwait - i would have thought their standard of living, and personal rights be at least equal to or greater than Israels.ATG wrote:
Because they have outside influences who keep reminding them why they should be pissed, funneling weapons and explosives and fomenting unrest.
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Not an attack or debate, just a query.
The countries you mention enjoy a massive social wellfare platform because of all of the oil money, but have little say in their government.
Last I check, ANY Israeli citizen, regardless of Muslim or not, has an equal vote.
If they haven't been forced out yet.ATG wrote:
Last I check, ANY Israeli citizen, regardless of Muslim or not, has an equal vote.
Oug, I'm well fucking aware of it. I never said it was feasible, or that they'd be willing. I'm not sure if you've never read my posts or not, but I'm solidly on the side of the Palestinians. And I've had similar experiences, You don't let it go when someone royally fucks with you.oug wrote:
Alright you people need to realize what you're saying here: How exactly do you suppose they should "let things go" Ikarti? You need to place yourself in their shoes, if that's possible: What if your country, your house and everything you own was occupied / taken away from you by some other country/nation /whatever. How the hell would you let go?
Last edited by Ikarti (2006-10-23 17:11:19)
Good point, but.... As someone else mentioned, a lot of the land was taken decades ago. Most of the terrorists are too young to even remember most of the Israeli advances into Palestinian land. That's why "letting it go" is a good thing. You can't win against an established army anyway. These people are just asking for death by attacking Israel.oug wrote:
Alright you people need to realize what you're saying here: How exactly do you suppose they should "let things go" Ikarti? You need to place yourself in their shoes, if that's possible: What if your country, your house and everything you own was occupied / taken away from you by some other country/nation /whatever. How the hell would you let go?
So how can it be expected of them? I know I wouldn't let it go... (I too have similar experiences btw...)Ikarti wrote:
You don't let it go when someone royally fucks with you.
But then again, you cant win against an established Guerilla 'Army'. Vietnam and now Iraq will prove invaluable to the future of urban and guerilla warfare.Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but.... As someone else mentioned, a lot of the land was taken decades ago. Most of the terrorists are too young to even remember most of the Israeli advances into Palestinian land. That's why "letting it go" is a good thing. You can't win against an established army anyway. These people are just asking for death by attacking Israel.oug wrote:
Alright you people need to realize what you're saying here: How exactly do you suppose they should "let things go" Ikarti? You need to place yourself in their shoes, if that's possible: What if your country, your house and everything you own was occupied / taken away from you by some other country/nation /whatever. How the hell would you let go?
It's not something that could happen overnight. Being treated humanely would have to start. Hamas would need to have at the very least a ceasefire, Israel would need to stop running around in Palestinian lands. The US would need to provide a significant amount of aid to Palestine (take it from the military aid to Isreal) to help rebuild and get a decent infrastructure in place. Al-Quds/Jerusalem should be put under control of a neutral 3rd party (Switzerland or a new body comprised of atheists, since Israel thinks the UN hates them.) Create some feasible connection between Gaza and the West Bank. Find some way where they don't have to like each other, or really talk to each other, but where they can live next to each other without wanting to kill each other.oug wrote:
Dude, I know where you stand, and we agree.So how can it be expected of them? I know I wouldn't let it go... (I too have similar experiences btw...)Ikarti wrote:
You don't let it go when someone royally fucks with you.
Decades or no decades that doesn't change the fact... My guess is they're not worrying about winning anything... especially since they resort to suicide...Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but.... As someone else mentioned, a lot of the land was taken decades ago. Most of the terrorists are too young to even remember most of the Israeli advances into Palestinian land. That's why "letting it go" is a good thing. You can't win against an established army anyway. These people are just asking for death by attacking Israel.
Touche'... Vietnam was a mess that would've required America to just take the Pol Pot approach and kill everything that moves, in order to win. There are times when I wish we had done that.Iron_Sentinel wrote:
But then again, you cant win against an established Guerilla 'Army'. Vietnam and now Iraq will prove invaluable to the future of urban and guerilla warfare.Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but.... As someone else mentioned, a lot of the land was taken decades ago. Most of the terrorists are too young to even remember most of the Israeli advances into Palestinian land. That's why "letting it go" is a good thing. You can't win against an established army anyway. These people are just asking for death by attacking Israel.oug wrote:
Alright you people need to realize what you're saying here: How exactly do you suppose they should "let things go" Ikarti? You need to place yourself in their shoes, if that's possible: What if your country, your house and everything you own was occupied / taken away from you by some other country/nation /whatever. How the hell would you let go?
More sepcifically, Jordan has universal sufferage, a relatively powerful legislature, and reserved seats for minority groups such as Christians.Iron_Sentinel wrote:
Fair enough.ATG wrote:
Talking mostly about civil freedoms; voting rights, court systems etc...Iron_Sentinel wrote:
Dubai, Jordan, Kuwait - i would have thought their standard of living, and personal rights be at least equal to or greater than Israels.
Not an attack or debate, just a query.
The countries you mention enjoy a massive social wellfare platform because of all of the oil money, but have little say in their government.
Last I check, ANY Israeli citizen, regardless of Muslim or not, has an equal vote.
I think those three countries are ruled more or less by their respective Royal families anyway. Not sure that they are the leaders - might have a Prime Minister etc - , but i know the royals there are active within the community and in running of the countries.
But if they resort to suicide, they're as good as dead. This is why I feel very little sympathy for them. I can sympathize with a Western oppressive power far easier than an extremist non-Western culture that resorts to suicide.oug wrote:
Decades or no decades that doesn't change the fact... My guess is they're not worrying about winning anything... especially since they resort to suicide...Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but.... As someone else mentioned, a lot of the land was taken decades ago. Most of the terrorists are too young to even remember most of the Israeli advances into Palestinian land. That's why "letting it go" is a good thing. You can't win against an established army anyway. These people are just asking for death by attacking Israel.