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2006-10-23 16:13:33
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command
https://i13.tinypic.com/339k7lk.jpg
October 23, 1983
A day that will live in infamy in the eyes of the United States forever.
A idea born of the tactics of the Tamil Tiger rebels, Hamas operatives drove a truck laden bomb into the Marines barracks at the airport, and blew themselves up under sleeping marines.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general … y_big.html
241 Americans died, and in a lessor known, but almost simultaneous attack 58 French paratrooper were killed in a blast nearby. These attacks were carried out by Hezbollah.

Propecy about Hamas/Hezbollah by Pat Buchanan  http://antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=5204

This article makes a good case for letting bygones be bygones. After all, to insist on Democratic elections and then withhold aid simply on the basis that we do not like who got elected is to make of ourselves fools. I have often wondered why Muqtada al-Sadr  hasn't been killed in Iraq. After all, he is a thorn in our side and many Americans have died fighting his followers.
     The reason we can't is because he holds seats in parliment. It would be wrong and turn the people against us even more. He, and/or his people have been elected in Iraq and we can't just say ( although I personally think he needs to be killed ) we don't like you, without being seen as puppet masters.
     By extensions, the U.S. needs to forgive this decades old crime, and recognize Hamas as a freely elected government.
     Should they insist on funding terrorism, or attacking Israel, then we take them out.

For the usual suspects who will say Israel was to blame for this too; I've taked the time to provide you with your talking points...
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_ord … ebanon.htm
these clowns claim Mossad controls Hezobollah lol!

     
     So, what do you think; can the U.S. foster elections, but rightly cry foul when terrorists are elected?
     Can Israel be blamed for the bombings in Beirut?
     Can we deal with elected terrorist like nothing ever happened, and if we are suppossed to, should a requirement of that be that they let bygones be bygones in regards to Israel?

Last edited by ATG (2006-10-23 19:16:40)

2006-10-23 16:24:29
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7020|d
"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"
2006-10-23 16:24:48
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6966|Wilmington, DE, US

ATG wrote:

So, what do you think; can the U.S. foster elections, but rightly cry foul when terrorists are elected?
Can Israel be blamed for the bombings in Beirut?
Can we deal with elected terrorist like nothing ever happened, and if we are suppossed to, should a requirement of that be that they let bygones be bygones in regards to Israel?
It was a good article.

#1 No. Flagrant hypocrisy. It only reinforces the image that the US only cares about democracy when it is in its own interests.
#2 I would say that's really stretching it. The Mossad has been behind some big setups but that's far too extensive.
#3 Like nothing ever happened? No. Hypothetically if we were, it would require a lot of cooperation from a lot of parties that wouldn't want to let it go. Hezbollah would probably be easier to let go as an organization and deal with however, but when it comes down to Israel and Palestine, it's always going to be about ownership of the land and rights of the people.
2006-10-23 16:26:31
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command
Ikarti, I could have swore that when I gave you karma you were at 221. Now you are at 220. I think your going backwards.
2006-10-23 16:27:15
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6966|Wilmington, DE, US

ATG wrote:

Ikarti, I could have swore that when I gave you karma you were at 221. Now you are at 220. I think your going backwards.
I was at 219. Must have looked at it wrong or something.
2006-10-23 16:28:09
CC-Marley
Member
+407|7086

Ikarti wrote:

ATG wrote:

So, what do you think; can the U.S. foster elections, but rightly cry foul when terrorists are elected?
Can Israel be blamed for the bombings in Beirut?
Can we deal with elected terrorist like nothing ever happened, and if we are supposed to, should a requirement of that be that they let bygones be bygones in regards to Israel?
It was a good article.

#1 No. Flagrant hypocrisy. It only reinforces the image that the US only cares about democracy when it is in its own interests.
#2 I would say that's really stretching it. The Mossad has been behind some big setups but that's far too extensive.
#3 Like nothing ever happened? No. Hypothetically if we were, it would require a lot of cooperation from a lot of parties that wouldn't want to let it go. Hezbollah would probably be easier to let go as an organization and deal with however, but when it comes down to Israel and Palestine, it's always going to be about ownership of the land and rights of the people.
If Israel was not there, they would just kill each other. Which they still do.

Last edited by CC-Marley (2006-10-23 16:28:46)

2006-10-23 16:29:33
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6966|Wilmington, DE, US

Turquoise wrote:

As for the Palestinians, well, that's Israel's bag.  We're too busy to do much about them, but we might as well give Israel the green light to do as they please with regards to our connection.  I also can't say that I mourn what they did to Lebanon.  That was a country just asking to be bombed with how they let Hezbollah shoot rockets into Israel.
You know, I am all for that as long as we're not paying for their equipment over here. Or we give training and weapons to the Palestinians as well to level the playing field.
2006-10-23 16:30:03
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6979|Eastern PA
Minor quibble, but it was Hezbollah that blew up the Marine Barracks and US Embassies in Lebanon. HAMAS didn't exist until 1987.
2006-10-23 16:32:09
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

So, what do you think; can the U.S. foster elections, but rightly cry foul when terrorists are elected?
     Can Israel be blamed for the bombings in Beirut?
     Can we deal with elected terrorist like nothing ever happened, and if we are suppossed to, should a requirement of that be that they let bygones be bygones in regards to Israel?
This is a well written and well thought out post.

Still, I think Hamas is too dangerous to trust, as is Muqtada.  Both the Palestinians and Muqtada's followers hate America already.  I say we wipe out Muqtada's militia and Muqtada himself.

As for the Palestinians, well, that's Israel's bag.  We're too busy to do much about them, but we might as well give Israel the green light to do as they please with regards to our connection.  I also can't say that I mourn what they did to Lebanon.  That was a country just asking to be bombed with how they let Hezbollah shoot rockets into Israel.

Getting back to the questions...

The U.S. shouldn't really try to instill democracies in the Middle East.  These people just can't handle them.  We need to put puppet governments in place, if we are to intervene at all.

Israel can be blamed for many things, but ultimately, it is the terrorists that blow us up, not Israel.

Elected terrorists are fair game in my book.  Assassination is A-OK in my opinion, especially if they are connected to attacks against us.
2006-10-23 16:33:30
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Ikarti wrote:

You know, I am all for that as long as we're not paying for their equipment over here. Or we give training and weapons to the Palestinians as well to level the playing field.
I just think the Palestinians are a lost cause.  The world would probably be a better place if Israel just...  you know...  "dealt" with them.
2006-10-23 16:36:43
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6966|Wilmington, DE, US

Turquoise wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

You know, I am all for that as long as we're not paying for their equipment over here. Or we give training and weapons to the Palestinians as well to level the playing field.
I just think the Palestinians are a lost cause.  The world would probably be a better place if Israel just...  you know...  "dealt" with them.
It was something I really thought about today. The Palestinians have their own government, but what can they do? Another government controls their borders, walls them in, puts military posts along the border, makes forays into their territory, bulldozes homes...They have rights too. If Israel were to "deal" with them, then I'd like to see them "deal" with the consequences. Without our help.
2006-10-23 16:42:05
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command

mafia996630 wrote:

"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"
How about instead of objecting to my choice of words why don't you answer the questions?

Turquoise wrote:

I say we wipe out Muqtada's militia and Muqtada himself.


The U.S. shouldn't really try to instill democracies in the Middle East.  These people just can't handle them.  We need to put puppet governments in place, if we are to intervene at all.
Wiping out people is often a desirable responce, but when short sighted leads to more suffering for all.
For a heinous example, Hitler had one thing right; if your gonna kill a bunch of people, you better kill them all because the ones you don't kill are gonna come back and get their revenge at some point.

In other words, the only practicle way to " get rid" of a Muslim problem, is to get rid of all Muslims. For whatever Muslims you don't kill will surely spend centuries holding a grudge.
In that way, we are doing the right thing, fostering democratic elections while not hand picking the people up for election, and killing blatant terrorist who resist this right and just change.

If enough Muslims are effected by this positive change, the overall happiness level will help them forgive their real, and imagined grievances.
2006-10-23 16:43:13
Ice Cold Killa
Member
+26|6701|Perth, W.A, Australia.
my birthday on october 23rd too
2006-10-23 16:45:42
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Ikarti wrote:

It was something I really thought about today. The Palestinians have their own government, but what can they do? Another government controls their borders, walls them in, puts military posts along the border, makes forays into their territory, bulldozes homes...They have rights too. If Israel were to "deal" with them, then I'd like to see them "deal" with the consequences. Without our help.
Well yeah..  I know that it would result in a major war between Israel and its neighbors, but hey, they won that kind of thing the last time it happened.  I don't think we'd need to get involved unless Iran broke out the nukes.
2006-10-23 16:46:58
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7020|d

Ice Cold Killa wrote:

my birthday on october 23rd too
OMG , stop trying to hijack the thread. : ))))
2006-10-23 16:47:14
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6979|Eastern PA
If Israel is going to deal with the Palestinians, then they need to stop pussy footing around and become brutal overlords (moreso than they already are) and either withdraw to their pre-1967 borders or annex the territory and give Palestinians full citizenship rights. This Apartheid bullshit isn't working and is making the situation worse. It's the only way a situation like this has ever been resolved. The inconsistency of the Israeli response has only exacerbated the situation.
2006-10-23 16:47:47
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command

Masques wrote:

Minor quibble, but it was Hezbollah that blew up the Marine Barracks and US Embassies in Lebanon. HAMAS didn't exist until 1987.
I'm sorry, I confused the two.

Well, at least you know my post wasn't  a cut and paste job.

+1 for the corrwection.
2006-10-23 16:48:18
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

ATG wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I say we wipe out Muqtada's militia and Muqtada himself.


The U.S. shouldn't really try to instill democracies in the Middle East.  These people just can't handle them.  We need to put puppet governments in place, if we are to intervene at all.
Wiping out people is often a desirable responce, but when short sighted leads to more suffering for all.
For a heinous example, Hitler had one thing right; if your gonna kill a bunch of people, you better kill them all because the ones you don't kill are gonna come back and get their revenge at some point.

In other words, the only practicle way to " get rid" of a Muslim problem, is to get rid of all Muslims. For whatever Muslims you don't kill will surely spend centuries holding a grudge.
In that way, we are doing the right thing, fostering democratic elections while not hand picking the people up for election, and killing blatant terrorist who resist this right and just change.

If enough Muslims are effected by this positive change, the overall happiness level will help them forgive their real, and imagined grievances.
Good points...  My feeling is this...  If you're part of a brutal militia and you're in our territory, you should expect to be wiped out by us.  I'm against entering war most of the time, but when you enter it, you can't hold back.
2006-10-23 16:48:57
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6979|Eastern PA

ATG wrote:

Masques wrote:

Minor quibble, but it was Hezbollah that blew up the Marine Barracks and US Embassies in Lebanon. HAMAS didn't exist until 1987.
I'm sorry, I confused the two.

Well, at least you know my post wasn't  a cut and paste job.

+1 for the corrwection.
We all make mistakes...I've made one...once.
2006-10-23 16:49:24
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina

Masques wrote:

If Israel is going to deal with the Palestinians, then they need to stop pussy footing around and become brutal overlords (moreso than they already are) and either withdraw to their pre-1967 borders or annex the territory and give Palestinians full citizenship rights. This Apartheid bullshit isn't working and is making the situation worse. It's the only way a situation like this has ever been resolved. The inconsistency of the Israeli response has only exacerbated the situation.
I agree.  It's the same problem America faces.  We don't know how to properly intimidate an enemy.
2006-10-23 16:54:58
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command

Turquoise wrote:

We don't know how to properly intimidate an enemy.
I disagree.
Look at what we can do when we decided to play tough;
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=640472#p640472
2006-10-23 17:02:47
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6662|North Carolina
Good point...  perhaps, we should go back to that technique.
2006-10-23 18:40:15
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6786|Global Command

Turquoise wrote:

Good point...  perhaps, we should go back to that technique.
At some point, I think we just might.
2006-10-23 20:06:12
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6818
Those weren't terrorist attacks.

Having said that, this is the most reasonable post I've ever seen you make.  Huzzah!
2006-10-23 20:57:28
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6838|the dank(super) side of Oregon
It's frustrating, but our concept of democracy, or perhaps any democracy, is completely unacceptable to people in the Middle East.  Their religion is so completely intertwined with their lives that government simply cannot exist independent of Islam.  When given the opportunity, they choose, religions leaders to be their politicians.  We consider Pat Robertson unelectable, they would consider the equivolent to be the perfect candidate.  As far as they're concerned, who better to run their daily lives than the people who run their spiritual lives?

even in the reformed Democratic Nation of Afghanistan, it is illegal for a Muslim to convert to Christianity.  That is not Democracy.  The concept of human rights, much less civil rights, is completely foreign.  You give the Palestinians elections, they choose Hamas.  You give the Iraqis elections they choose, Muqtada al-Sadr.   Lebannon wants Hezbollah.  If given the choice, these people will elect dictators, and zealots, and theocracies.  This is  what they're comfortable with.

 

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