Ohhh.... Sinking the Bismarck - good call.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
1- United States/second choice GB
2- Pacific/ North Atlantic
3- navy/Royal Navy
4- Pilot Just to payback Japan at the battle of Midway. / Gunner, Would have liked to have been the one to have put the shell into the Bizmark.
Your last statement simply isn't true. There were lots of victories without air dominance in WWII. Stalingrad was the turning point for the Germans and they didn't lose that due to a lack of air superiority. The soviets countered superior German supporting fire by just running at the German infantry all the time. You don't want to bombard your own infantry so they neutralised the German advantage quite well and played to their strengths (having lots more men). This brutal change in tactics made Stalingrad the most devastating battle ever (couple of million casualties) and really changed the course of the war. The Soviets went from defence to offence and drove the Germans back. You probably know that it was the Russians who took Berlin. Stalingrad was the turning point in the war if you ask me, after that the Soviets advanced to Berlin. The soviet advance began before D-Day. I think you underestimate the Soviet war machine, they were producing tanks and planes (slightly) faster than the Germans and they had more troops to use them, their tanks were better, but their planes were not.lowing wrote:
good point on the hollywood issue, so I will bow to that point.
But really, bottom line is, air superiority was everything in WW2, the ones who enjoyed it would win the war, and until the US intervined Germany had it. The Soviets, did not have nor could ever get it. As long as Germany had an industry to provide planes that could keep the Soviet cities in ruins, there is no way in hell that Germany was going to lose that war to the Soviets.
Now, I am not saying this because I am an American, I am saying this because it is a fact. Air superiority was the key to victory in WW2 and the British and Americans, not the Soviets, took air superiority over Europe. That is it.
Every other victory that took place in WW2 was possible only because the allies had command of the air.
Ok, I do agree with you, the US contribution was NOT negligible. They did a lot, and yes the war in Northwestern Europe would have been much more difficult with the US support.Pizdets_Velikiy wrote:
Undoubtedly. Russian troops took the brunt of what ground war and casualties meant at the time, I am not triyng to dispute that. They kept the Germans occupied while everyone else was still trying to figure out what and how to do it in Europe.CaptainMike wrote:
Pizdets that isn't entirely true. The US may have helped to tip the balance, but Russia did most of the work. Without Russia the war could have ended completely different.
I was just pointing out that US intervention was the tipping stone, because it happened at the right time and in the right manner of execution. My gripe is that there are people out there who believe that US contribution to the allied war effort was negligible.
Last edited by Ottomania (2006-10-23 11:51:51)
Otto: Off topic but I'm off to Istanbul on Wednesday. Is Eid-Al-Fitr going to mean everything is shut? Will Eid still be happening on Wednesday/Thursday? Has Ramadan ended yet?Ottomania wrote:
japan
pacific
navy
I want to use aichival, jump over carrier, snipe enemy pilot steal enemy fighter
lol we dont speak arabic :SCameronPoe wrote:
Otto: Off topic but I'm off to Istanbul on Wednesday. Is Eid-Al-Fitr going to mean everything is shut? Will Eid still be happening on Wednesday/Thursday? Has Ramadan ended yet?Ottomania wrote:
japan
pacific
navy
I want to use aichival, jump over carrier, snipe enemy pilot steal enemy fighter
Last edited by Ottomania (2006-10-23 12:01:59)
I get today tomorrow and wednesday off.Ottomania wrote:
lol we dont speak arabic :SCameronPoe wrote:
Otto: Off topic but I'm off to Istanbul on Wednesday. Is Eid-Al-Fitr going to mean everything is shut? Will Eid still be happening on Wednesday/Thursday? Has Ramadan ended yet?Ottomania wrote:
japan
pacific
navy
I want to use aichival, jump over carrier, snipe enemy pilot steal enemy fighter
btw ramadan has ended yesterday, but religious festival will end wednesday
You don't want to be relying on movies for historical perspective. They are very American biased. Band of Brothers, whilst I do really enjoy it, is still a classic example of pro US bias in a film. History books, you will find, give a somewhat different perspective.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm a Band of Brothers nut having watched the whole set at least 8 times and various episodes even more. I've read the book, seen the fan sites, and I'm convinced that not enough appreciation is given to boys/men like them...through every theater and branch of the armed forces liberating Europe and stopping Japan. The sense of history today's youth have is truly saddening...they, like me, have to rely on movies or their senile old grandpas for the information and appreciation..and it's not exactly cool to care I'm guessing.
Anyway, I would love to accompany Lt. Ronald Spiers throughout his entire european campaign as one of his platoon commanders or something....101 airborne, 506 pir, d and e companies.
Not quite accurate, the 8th Air Force became operational in Europe in July of 1942, 7 months after Pearl Harbor. Air Superiority was not established for the allies until early 1944.Vilham wrote:
Up to a year before d-day England had air superiority, ie absolutely nothing to do with America apart from the minority of pilots that were from America. Russians by D-day also had air superiority because the German planes werent made for the cold conditions and froze up meaning any Russian attack couldnt be countered from the air in time, if you want to know a hell of alot about the russian front read the book "Stalingrad" by Antony Beevor. Counter to popular belief by the time D-day happened the Germans were getting beaten... Their soldier KDR was higher but the russians still had millions more men than they did.lowing wrote:
good point on the hollywood issue, so I will bow to that point.Bertster7 wrote:
The Russian winter stopped the German advance. The Germans were relying on a quick suprise victory. The Russians made a lot of stupid mistakes early on. Once they got their act together the Germans were in real trouble. The winter bought them the time they needed to organise and they then pushed the Germans back. You have to remember that the Russians vastly outnumbered the Germans and had better armour, the Germans were better soldiers and had much better planes, but beating the Russians is hard, there's a lot of 'em - it's BIG too. The aim of Operation Barbarossa was only ever to invade Moscow, I doubt that the rest of Russia would have fallen if Moscow was taken and the Germans would still have had a massive battle on their hands.
With another 3.5 million German troops available D-Day would have been futile. A two front attack absolutely fucked the Germans up.
The Pacific, the US did all the work. Europe, Russia took the brunt of German aggression. Britain held out valiantly, but we were never going to invade Europe on our own.
Russia was Hitlers greatest mistake.
US troops were not that essential. Apart from the D-day landings, which could not have happened without American involvement. Without the second front Hitler might have beaten the Russians, with another front (even if it hadn't been a huge offensive) the Germans were in serious trouble.
I'm not saying the US did nothing. They did a lot. But Russia did the most.
I was just pointing out that Hollywood portrayals of WWII that tend to show the US as winning the war single handedly, are not true. Historical facts are often changed to favour the US in films, because that's the way Hollywood often is. We've had an example, about Enigma, posted already. You do seem to know your WWII history quite well and so I hope you know that a lot of the claims made in films are just fabrications. The Great Escape is a good example, based on a true story of British escapees, in Hollywood they decided the audience wanted an American protaganist, so we got Steve McQueen as the main character - despite the fact no Americans were involved.
You really can't deny that Hollywood have overplayed the role of the US in the European theatre in WWII. Conversely Russia's role has been downplayed in films, because they were always 'the bad guy', so it's not what audiences wanted.
But really, bottom line is, air superiority was everything in WW2, the ones who enjoyed it would win the war, and until the US intervined Germany had it. The Soviets, did not have nor could ever get it. As long as Germany had an industry to provide planes that could keep the Soviet cities in ruins, there is no way in hell that Germany was going to lose that war to the Soviets.
Now, I am not saying this because I am an American, I am saying this because it is a fact. Air superiority was the key to victory in WW2 and the British and Americans, not the Soviets, took air superiority over Europe. That is it.
Every other victory that took place in WW2 was possible only because the allies had command of the air.
While American and British prisoners were treated as POW, Russian solders were sent to labor, death camps. Russian solders were not considered as POWs but slave labor. And it wasn't just a Jews who got to burned alive.lowing wrote:
When I said they acted more "human", I was referring to the treatment of the American POW's as compared to the way the Japanese treated their POW's, please don't read anything more into it. I am well aware of the atrocities the Nazis are capable, and guilty of.l=l-Oneill-l=l wrote:
Human?!!! Burning, gassing people alive, destroying entire villages, trying to wipe entire group of people, just because they happen to have different religion and not being true Arian race.lowing wrote:
Well I forgot to answer my own questions:
would fight for the US, of course
I would rather fight in Europe, it would appear that the Germans were more "human" than the Japanese in the Pacific.
I would want to be in the Army/Air Forces,...Would wanna fly, and the they thoughts of trying to land on a carrier after being shot at and shot up wouldn't sit too well with me.
Well, Hollywood has certainly "glamorized" life in the 8th Air Force in England 1942-43 flying B-17's. However the thoughts of being shot at and not being able to do anything about it would scare me as well. SO, I would r have rather flown fighters, namely, the P-38. I like the idea of at least 2 engines when someone is trying to shoot me down.
In my case Red army. The only army that was fighting aggressor and (I know I'm gonna get flamed for that one) the army that won that war.
Fly boy, any of the plains on red army side.
Although the Soviets without a doubt did their part in defeating Germany, I kinda assumed it was the 2 fronts that Germany tried to fight on, and the loss of complete air superiority in Europe, that resulted into its inevitable demise.
When i say England had air superiority i mean we had the ability to go bomb german cities whenever we felt like it, we may not have been able to pin the german air force to the ground but the resistance against these huge air armada's wasnt strong enough to stop them meaning our air power was superior to theirs even over their own country.lowing wrote:
Not quite accurate, the 8th Air Force became operational in Europe in July of 1942, 7 months after Pearl Harbor. Air Superiority was not established for the allies until early 1944.Vilham wrote:
Up to a year before d-day England had air superiority, ie absolutely nothing to do with America apart from the minority of pilots that were from America. Russians by D-day also had air superiority because the German planes werent made for the cold conditions and froze up meaning any Russian attack couldnt be countered from the air in time, if you want to know a hell of alot about the russian front read the book "Stalingrad" by Antony Beevor. Counter to popular belief by the time D-day happened the Germans were getting beaten... Their soldier KDR was higher but the russians still had millions more men than they did.lowing wrote:
good point on the hollywood issue, so I will bow to that point.
But really, bottom line is, air superiority was everything in WW2, the ones who enjoyed it would win the war, and until the US intervined Germany had it. The Soviets, did not have nor could ever get it. As long as Germany had an industry to provide planes that could keep the Soviet cities in ruins, there is no way in hell that Germany was going to lose that war to the Soviets.
Now, I am not saying this because I am an American, I am saying this because it is a fact. Air superiority was the key to victory in WW2 and the British and Americans, not the Soviets, took air superiority over Europe. That is it.
Every other victory that took place in WW2 was possible only because the allies had command of the air.
I have read in several articles that do back you up in your statement that the Soviets would defeat Germany without American involvement, however. Not sure how, with out command of the air, but none the less I have read articles that support you.
thats what i say to people...and i would have loved to been in one of those swordfish torpedo bombers pounding the bismarkTuataraDude wrote:
1. Britain, they were the first to really stand up to the Germans successfully.
You might wanna throw a little shout out to the US for something called the Lend-Lease Act. Kinda aided you a little during the Battle of Britain. And yes you were the only country that lasted the entire war but were definately on your heels for a bit.ELITE-UK wrote:
and btw...britain was the only country in ww2 that lasted the whole war and was undefeated