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2006-10-22 16:19:24
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6751

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Phantom2828 wrote:

Who pays for you to go to school. Thats right the people that are smart and successful. You you make good money you say. Well imagine how much more you would be making if you didn't have to pay for lazy people mooching (which undoubtedly happens).
Um...  Phantom, you just contradicted yourself.  Cameron would be in no position to make much money if he didn't have the programs he mentioned to educate himself with.
Cameronpoe, had the ambition, desire, willpower and passion, to better himself, regardless as to how he got finianced, the point is, he CHOSE t otake advantage of it. We have programs here in the US as well, the difference is those that do and do not take advantage of them. This is the basis of my argument. Cameronpoe has helped himself, therefore recieved needed assistance. I applaude it.
So do you applaude the fellow taxpayers who made it possible for me to go to university when I would not ordinarily have had the funds to do so? A trip to university that has turned me into a boon for the government and my fellow countrymen in terms of my far higher than average tax returns.

I hate to be a bore also but to come back to my point about those situations where an economic downturn leads to less jobs than people: should all be guaranteed welfare in that scenario IYO? No matter how hard you try you won't get a job (unless you emigrate or something to some call centre in India maybe!!).

I personally don't begrudge assistance to the wasters because they would be more of a burden to society as petty thieves on the streets, holding up stores and what-not. Affording them a rudimentary living that gives them no luxury but less incentive to become criminals is not much to ask in the grand scheme of things, especially to those whose disposable income is gigantic.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-22 16:25:55)

2006-10-22 16:21:11
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6600|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Lowing is trying to say everyone is afforded the same opportunity in life. That is simply completely untrue. And yet he persists with his line of 'reasoning' carefully skirting the actual realities of life as applied to the totality of everyone within the nation.
I agree with this.  It is true that not everyone is afforded the same opportunities.  We live in a classist system, because every country is classist to a point.  I think a much better argument for less socialism in America is that most of us are given enough of an opportunity to become self-sufficient.  Some people do fall through the cracks, and others are people that inherit fortunes (like Bush).  Obviously, this means we're not all equals with regards to opportunity.

Nonetheless, America is much better than most of the world when it comes to giving a minimum but feasible amount of opportunity to its poorer citizens.
We are not afforded the same opportunites? Can you show me an example of a single person who was DENIED education in this country, who really wanted one??
Well, you have stated your support for social programs as long as they only help people who try.  However, knowing that these programs inevitably help a few lazy people, what do you believe we should do to help the people like Cameron but avoid helping the lazy people?
2006-10-22 16:21:28
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

There is another reason you should agree with me on this........

DO you not think that the money spent on the leeches of society would better be utilized actully helping those that truly need it?..........

Is it really too much to ask that those that can do so, ACTUALLY LIFT A FUCKIN" FINGER to help themselves so we can concentrate on those that can not?
Out of curiosity, who does lowing think the needy are, if not the poor?
Children, those that are mentally or physically disabled, those that have lost their job and need assistance until they find another, the elderly who need assisted living. The young adults who want to further their schooling. Try those for starters.
2006-10-22 16:23:51
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6600|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

1. tax returns

2. length of time sucking the govts. tit

3. applications entered for higher education

4. actually attending some sort of trade school or college.

5. age

6. criminal record

All these things considered, and probably more I have not thought off, would paint a pretty good picture of those who need asssitance in helping themselves and those that just want a ride.
I believe most of that is already done.
2006-10-22 16:28:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Um...  Phantom, you just contradicted yourself.  Cameron would be in no position to make much money if he didn't have the programs he mentioned to educate himself with.
Cameronpoe, had the ambition, desire, willpower and passion, to better himself, regardless as to how he got finianced, the point is, he CHOSE t otake advantage of it. We have programs here in the US as well, the difference is those that do and do not take advantage of them. This is the basis of my argument. Cameronpoe has helped himself, therefore recieved needed assistance. I applaude it.
So do you applaude the fellow taxpayers who made it possible for me to go to university when I would not ordinarily have had the funds to do so? A trip to university that has turned me into a boon for the government and my fellow countrymen in terms of my far higher than average tax returns.

I hate to be a bore also but to come back to my point about those situations where an economic downturn leads to less jobs than people: should all be guaranteed welfare in that scenario IYO? No matter how hard you try you won't get a job (unless you emigrate or something to some call centre in India maybe!!).
It is called unemployment here in America, those that had a job and lost it are not those that have sucked the govts. tit all their lives. SO yes I applude helping those that are now out of work.

YOu are trying to tell me to help those that never bothered looking for work in the first place. Cam, I know you know what the hell I am talking about, stop being so pig headed about it. Just accept that there are a lot of people looking for a free ride, and I endorse kicking them off the train.

Also, acknowledge that I have applauded the fact that a person like you MADE THE CHOICE TO BETTER YOURSELF. THAT IS THE POINT OF ALL OF THIS. YOU WERE POOR, NOW YOU ARE NOT. NOBODY GAVE YOU ANYTHING< YOU EARNED IT. You are my poster child for my argument.
2006-10-22 16:30:14
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


I agree with this.  It is true that not everyone is afforded the same opportunities.  We live in a classist system, because every country is classist to a point.  I think a much better argument for less socialism in America is that most of us are given enough of an opportunity to become self-sufficient.  Some people do fall through the cracks, and others are people that inherit fortunes (like Bush).  Obviously, this means we're not all equals with regards to opportunity.

Nonetheless, America is much better than most of the world when it comes to giving a minimum but feasible amount of opportunity to its poorer citizens.
We are not afforded the same opportunites? Can you show me an example of a single person who was DENIED education in this country, who really wanted one??
Well, you have stated your support for social programs as long as they only help people who try.  However, knowing that these programs inevitably help a few lazy people, what do you believe we should do to help the people like Cameron but avoid helping the lazy people?
Ummmmmmmm, I am sure Cameron had to APPLY, for the assistance he recieved did he not?? If he didn't apply then he would not have recieved his funding.
2006-10-22 16:32:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. tax returns

2. length of time sucking the govts. tit

3. applications entered for higher education

4. actually attending some sort of trade school or college.

5. age

6. criminal record

All these things considered, and probably more I have not thought off, would paint a pretty good picture of those who need asssitance in helping themselves and those that just want a ride.
I believe most of that is already done.
Yup and based on this, all those that do not fit into the established profile have some explaining, and accountablity to prove, before they are cut from these programs
2006-10-22 16:35:15
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6751

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:


We are not afforded the same opportunites? Can you show me an example of a single person who was DENIED education in this country, who really wanted one??
Well, you have stated your support for social programs as long as they only help people who try.  However, knowing that these programs inevitably help a few lazy people, what do you believe we should do to help the people like Cameron but avoid helping the lazy people?
Ummmmmmmm, I am sure Cameron had to APPLY, for the assistance he recieved did he not?? If he didn't apply then he would not have recieved his funding.
Well the funding is available to everyone. A lot of wasters attend college but drop out and achieve nothing there. All university/college/technology institute fees are paid for by the government (i.e. the taxpayer) in Ireland. Also, the only qualification you need for a subsistence grant of €3000 a year from the government is to have low-income parents - again fully funded by the tax payer. The effect it has had on our economy is immeasurable: we are one of the most highly educated workforces in the world and as such have helped make our economy one of the best in the world. All thanks to 'hand up' social policies.
2006-10-22 16:45:42
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, you have stated your support for social programs as long as they only help people who try.  However, knowing that these programs inevitably help a few lazy people, what do you believe we should do to help the people like Cameron but avoid helping the lazy people?
Ummmmmmmm, I am sure Cameron had to APPLY, for the assistance he recieved did he not?? If he didn't apply then he would not have recieved his funding.
Well the funding is available to everyone. A lot of wasters attend college but drop out and achieve nothing there. All university/college/technology institute fees are paid for by the government (i.e. the taxpayer) in Ireland. Also, the only qualification you need for a subsistence grant of €3000 a year from the government is to have low-income parents - again fully funded by the tax payer. The effect it has had on our economy is immeasurable: we are one of the most highly educated workforces in the world and as such have helped make our economy one of the best in the world. All thanks to 'hand up' social policies.
No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
2006-10-22 17:01:36
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6917|Eastern PA

lowing wrote:

No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
Without the policy in place all of those people that had the desire wouldn't have afforded college otherwise.
2006-10-22 17:04:54
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

Masques wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
Without the policy in place all of those people that had the desire wouldn't have afforded college otherwise.
I agree, same goes here in the states, we have programs in place for assistance just like this. There are those that take advantage, and those that don't. Which is the basis for my whole argument that there is no reason for an able bodied person to remain poor in America. Everyone knows this, but refuses to acknowledge it. I already asked to be proven wrong, and nobody can do it., even after I was told there was a million reason why.
2006-10-22 20:31:21
jonsimon
Member
+224|6690

lowing wrote:

Masques wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
Without the policy in place all of those people that had the desire wouldn't have afforded college otherwise.
I agree, same goes here in the states, we have programs in place for assistance just like this. There are those that take advantage, and those that don't. Which is the basis for my whole argument that there is no reason for an able bodied person to remain poor in America. Everyone knows this, but refuses to acknowledge it. I already asked to be proven wrong, and nobody can do it., even after I was told there was a million reason why.
There are restrictions on who can receive welfare in the states. And there are social restraints such as familty that can hold one back. We've answered, you just fail to acknowledge it.
2006-10-22 20:40:53
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Masques wrote:


Without the policy in place all of those people that had the desire wouldn't have afforded college otherwise.
I agree, same goes here in the states, we have programs in place for assistance just like this. There are those that take advantage, and those that don't. Which is the basis for my whole argument that there is no reason for an able bodied person to remain poor in America. Everyone knows this, but refuses to acknowledge it. I already asked to be proven wrong, and nobody can do it., even after I was told there was a million reason why.
There are restrictions on who can receive welfare in the states. And there are social restraints such as familty that can hold one back. We've answered, you just fail to acknowledge it.
NO you haven't, answered, you have tap danced around the question for about 3 pages now.

There is no excuse for ANYONE to go unmarketable their whole lives in America...........NONE.......and you know it. You are even trying to stretch so far as to say, that someones family can hold them back for 40 years............after your proclomation that there are "MILLIONS" of reasons someone should leech off the the govt. for their whole lives, this is the best excuse you want to give????????
2006-10-22 20:43:10
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6757

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You can join some branches of the service until your early thirties. That is a job. Also, you can recieve a college education and eventualy get a better one.
And do they let anyone join?
2006-10-22 21:01:50
jonsimon
Member
+224|6690

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:


Ummmmmmmm, I am sure Cameron had to APPLY, for the assistance he recieved did he not?? If he didn't apply then he would not have recieved his funding.
Well the funding is available to everyone. A lot of wasters attend college but drop out and achieve nothing there. All university/college/technology institute fees are paid for by the government (i.e. the taxpayer) in Ireland. Also, the only qualification you need for a subsistence grant of €3000 a year from the government is to have low-income parents - again fully funded by the tax payer. The effect it has had on our economy is immeasurable: we are one of the most highly educated workforces in the world and as such have helped make our economy one of the best in the world. All thanks to 'hand up' social policies.
No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
So, in lowing's humble opinion, the Irish are superior to Americans. Good to know you aren't a patriot.
2006-10-22 21:03:58
jonsimon
Member
+224|6690

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I agree, same goes here in the states, we have programs in place for assistance just like this. There are those that take advantage, and those that don't. Which is the basis for my whole argument that there is no reason for an able bodied person to remain poor in America. Everyone knows this, but refuses to acknowledge it. I already asked to be proven wrong, and nobody can do it., even after I was told there was a million reason why.
There are restrictions on who can receive welfare in the states. And there are social restraints such as familty that can hold one back. We've answered, you just fail to acknowledge it.
NO you haven't, answered, you have tap danced around the question for about 3 pages now.

There is no excuse for ANYONE to go unmarketable their whole lives in America...........NONE.......and you know it. You are even trying to stretch so far as to say, that someones family can hold them back for 40 years............after your proclomation that there are "MILLIONS" of reasons someone should leech off the the govt. for their whole lives, this is the best excuse you want to give????????
I've answered several times. What's with you and tap dancing? Family only has to hold you back in high school, without mnoney, you're fucked from there. I'm sorry, but if you don't accept one answer, you won't accept a list of them. We'll just have to agree that your worldview is oversimplified and idyllic.
2006-10-22 21:20:28
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6688|Connecticut

Masques wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Listen Mr Bleeding Heart. First off, you can join the military without a high school education if you sign a waiver ensuring you obtain a GED or HS equivilancy within one year of active duty enlistment. Do your research. Second, you were very quick to place blame on the society for the military being an option. It is an OPTION. That means there are other ways, I just listed that one because it is the route I took and is the option I can speak of from experience. Third, you stated so matter of factly that I have never endured a situation or time frame in my life where I suffered hardship. WRONG AGAIN. I have been on my own from the age of 16. I worked three jobs to pay rent as a teenager and barely passed high school. I busted my ass and joined the Marine Corps because I had nothing else, literaly, and received my BA in Criminal Justice. I had to sweat, bleed, and see my best friend (the only family I had left) shot to shit in Kosovo to earn what is mine. Never once, and I mean ONCE did I blame anyone. There is nobody to blame, not even myself. You get shit cards in life sometimes, be a fucking man and deal with it. I now have a family and I swear every day I will work so hard to make sure my son never has to deal with what I did. I will give him the world or die trying so that way he can someday be accused by liberals that he is the problem with society. You know, there are some people here that I dont agree with at all, SHIPBUILDER is one of the many, but at least he is intelligent and can support debate with facts. You sir are an idiot and I am now dumber for having shared a debate with you. Instead of responding to this go to the many I hate Republican threads and embarass your political party some more.
It is, as you say, an option, but the thrust of my post was to say that if you are so poor that your only option is military service, society has failed at that point. It is true that if you don't get the requisite score on the ASVAB you can be denied enlistment and there are waivers for non-HS grads, but if you're coming from the situation we're talking about, the military might even be an option that is unavailable.

Did I insult you personally somehow? Because your answer is somewhat incoherent. Never did I say that those more well off are the problem with society. I'm saying that society as it currently stands has some serious structural problems.

I'm politically unafiliated. So apparently, despite your head being located there, your ass must still have had room for that political party bit that you pulled out of there.
You did insult me. As well as everyone else who works hard for what they have. I dont tolerate excuses for anything, and it irritates me when people who give them have honest employed citizens such as yourself sticking up for them.
Malloy must go
2006-10-22 21:27:23
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6688|Connecticut

Bubbalo wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You can join some branches of the service until your early thirties. That is a job. Also, you can recieve a college education and eventualy get a better one.
And do they let anyone join?
Just about. It depends on your ASVAB score. Even if you bomb that you can still enter, however the military chooses you occupation (MOS). It is usually a cook or infantry, something along those lines. You still get paid the same as everyone else your rank though and you are still afforded the same opportunities for college.
Malloy must go
2006-10-22 21:45:23
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6839|Seattle, WA

jonsimon wrote:

So, in lowing's humble opinion, the Irish are superior to Americans. Good to know you aren't a patriot.
Nice over generalization...he was just pointing out the fact that if people get their shit together, they have no excuse.  I don't think you, of all people, are in ANY place to judge ANYONE'S patriotism, and neither am I.  So don't fucking do that, it just makes you look like an ass.

As for the whole damn thread, which is way off topic btw.  People will always be poor, but lowing has a point, if people go their WHOLE lives living off the system or super poor, it really is THEIR own fault.  They have no tried hard enough, sorry.  Ask a fucking homeless person that and they will agree with you, I've interviewed a few before on this very issue, and they agreed that they have no place to go right now, and sometimes do not spend handout money correctly, but some of them, that I know, try really hard, and actually get a job, and make something of themselves.  Than their are the street suckers that just belong on the streets.  Fact of life, in fact that reminds me, some of those homeless people I talked to, couldn't stand other homeless people that did NOTHING with themselves and just sucked up money.  Hmmm, interesting viewpoint I got from some of them.
2006-10-22 23:35:51
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6917|Eastern PA

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You did insult me. As well as everyone else who works hard for what they have. I dont tolerate excuses for anything, and it irritates me when people who give them have honest employed citizens such as yourself sticking up for them.
How is it an insult? I'm saying the US has systemic problems and that option highlights that fact. Unless you = the US socio-economic system, you don't have anything to be pissed about.

Remember laddie, criticism |= attack. Good for you for making it dispite your disadvantages, but the fact remains that your success, given your situation, was through chance. You weren't born wealthy, you probably didn't have access to the best schools and all the opportunities afforded wealthier children (social networks, etc.). If you would have failed dispite your hard work (illness, maybe you just happened to choose the wrong major in college, wounded in combat, accident) you would have nothing. That situation still happens and can still happen to virtually anyone. Unexpected medical expenses, Enron-like financial collapse, a sour housing market, lay-offs (at 50 years of age) are all happening and with increasing frequency.

I curious why you take such things to be a personal insult and why you insist on attacking those that point out that there are structural flaws in the system. Do you disagree?
2006-10-23 02:54:58
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


There are restrictions on who can receive welfare in the states. And there are social restraints such as familty that can hold one back. We've answered, you just fail to acknowledge it.
NO you haven't, answered, you have tap danced around the question for about 3 pages now.

There is no excuse for ANYONE to go unmarketable their whole lives in America...........NONE.......and you know it. You are even trying to stretch so far as to say, that someones family can hold them back for 40 years............after your proclomation that there are "MILLIONS" of reasons someone should leech off the the govt. for their whole lives, this is the best excuse you want to give????????
I've answered several times. What's with you and tap dancing? Family only has to hold you back in high school, without mnoney, you're fucked from there. I'm sorry, but if you don't accept one answer, you won't accept a list of them. We'll just have to agree that your worldview is oversimplified and idyllic.
No, what is a cop out and simplistic is your shallow answer that, you will, like a true liberal, blame someone else for being poor. In this case, family.
2006-10-23 02:56:37
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Well the funding is available to everyone. A lot of wasters attend college but drop out and achieve nothing there. All university/college/technology institute fees are paid for by the government (i.e. the taxpayer) in Ireland. Also, the only qualification you need for a subsistence grant of €3000 a year from the government is to have low-income parents - again fully funded by the tax payer. The effect it has had on our economy is immeasurable: we are one of the most highly educated workforces in the world and as such have helped make our economy one of the best in the world. All thanks to 'hand up' social policies.
No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
So, in lowing's humble opinion, the Irish are superior to Americans. Good to know you aren't a patriot.
Once again, nope, I am appluding anyone that will better themselves given the opportunity.
2006-10-23 04:08:19
jonsimon
Member
+224|6690

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


No, all thanks to a people that had the desire and worked to improve themselves.
So, in lowing's humble opinion, the Irish are superior to Americans. Good to know you aren't a patriot.
Once again, nope, I am appluding anyone that will better themselves given the opportunity.
But you just said the WHOLE of Ireland is well off not because of their social programs, but because they all work to improve themselves, unlike the US. Sounds like Irish superiority.
2006-10-23 14:49:53
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6846|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


So, in lowing's humble opinion, the Irish are superior to Americans. Good to know you aren't a patriot.
Once again, nope, I am appluding anyone that will better themselves given the opportunity.
But you just said the WHOLE of Ireland is well off not because of their social programs, but because they all work to improve themselves, unlike the US. Sounds like Irish superiority.
On an individual basis, taken 1 for 1, I will agree with that. America is FULL of lazy bastards that want a free ride. We are full of spoiled,arrogant, assholes that think they are owed something by everyone. There plenty of things Americans are guilty of that I am certainly not proud of.

Now, having said that, please note the distinction in my comments from Americans, and America.
2006-10-23 17:16:49
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6600|North Carolina

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You did insult me. As well as everyone else who works hard for what they have. I dont tolerate excuses for anything, and it irritates me when people who give them have honest employed citizens such as yourself sticking up for them.
I think Heeznutz would have been a better name for you.  Chill out -- are you the son of Archie Bunker or something?

I can see where you're coming from, but you ought to try debating with less emotion and more logic.  I think we can agree that it would be nice to weed out the lazy people.  It just takes some effort to figure out a proper way to do that....

 

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