Then I need to have a talk with some self made millionaires I know. Damn bastards aren't following the RULES!Bubbalo wrote:
Exactly. Dystopia doesn't mean anarchy, necessarily. The US is supported by a well defined class system, where those on the bottom support those on the top without any hope of ever escaping.JG1567JG wrote:
I'm living just fine here in the states.Inspect@hDeck wrote:
United States
An did they start of poor? And by poor I don't mean they couldn't afford a car, I mean poor, as in choosing between somewhere to sleep and food.
Not all of them, but a lot are. They are called Municipal golf courses and are available to anyone to use. You really start to show your ignorance with comments like that.Bubbalo wrote:
And are the golf courses accessible by all?
Oh yes, how ignorant of me to call a question a comment...............almost as ignorant as assuming that someone on the other side of the world ought know the details of daily life where I live...............wait a minute...................
One of them did, he went through high school homeless, and wound up joining the military when he graduated. Used the G.I. bill to get through college. Graduated college with a masters in Metalurgy (I think it's metalurgy, I'm too tired to double check). He wound up devolping a lot of new alloys and holds a few patents. He wound up buying a lot of proprty with the money he was making, and with the recent boom in the housing market he found him self a millionaire.Bubbalo wrote:
An did they start of poor? And by poor I don't mean they couldn't afford a car, I mean poor, as in choosing between somewhere to sleep and food.
I called it a comment because, although you phrased it as a question, it came across as on observation or comment.Bubbalo wrote:
Oh yes, how ignorant of me to call a question a comment...............almost as ignorant as assuming that someone on the other side of the world ought know the details of daily life where I live...............wait a minute...................
And I am calling you ignorant because, well it was an ignorant comment/question, that's all there is too it.
You just seem to make a lot of assumptions about the US, and you know what the say when people begin to assume.
Sounds like a get rich quick infomerial intro. It it is a true story, where are your sources, the name of the alloys, and the gentleman's name? Again if this is true, the percentage of people that do this is very little compared to those who are still oppressed.ts-pulsar wrote:
One of them did, he went through high school homeless, and wound up joining the military when he graduated. Used the G.I. bill to get through college. Graduated college with a masters in Metalurgy (I think it's metalurgy, I'm too tired to double check). He wound up devolping a lot of new alloys and holds a few patents. He wound up buying a lot of proprty with the money he was making, and with the recent boom in the housing market he found him self a millionaire.Bubbalo wrote:
An did they start of poor? And by poor I don't mean they couldn't afford a car, I mean poor, as in choosing between somewhere to sleep and food.
Last edited by dubbs (2006-10-22 21:16:10)
Cause its just sooooo horrible here, our economy is the worst in the world, and we have less healthcare than any other country, in the world, and we have no jobs, and nothing to look forward to. Grow up.Inspect@hDeck wrote:
United States
No hope at all, they can't save money properly, get jobs, and work their way up, nope I didn't do that at all, and my mother didn't go from being a poor housewife, to graduating college at 40 while working full time raising me, and became an executive at Hewlett Packard. Of course this is anecdotal...Bubbalo wrote:
Exactly. Dystopia doesn't mean anarchy, necessarily. The US is supported by a well defined class system, where those on the bottom support those on the top without any hope of ever escaping.JG1567JG wrote:
I'm living just fine here in the states.Inspect@hDeck wrote:
United States
EVERYONE on the bottom is doomed?? Cut me the crap, sure there are people that will always be on the bottom, some belong there because they don't help themselves and some DO NOT belong there. I'll agree that is a problem, but than what is the solution?? Huh? Everyone can't be RICH!!! Its literally IMPOSSIBLE. But if you want keep raising taxes, call Mr. Gates up and start demanding more donations and MORE subsidation of everything from healthcare, education, to just about anything else you can think of. That will definitely fix the problem, yep. Taxes, taxes, taxes. But I digress, I am assuming, please give me your opinion on what you think that solution to that problem is.
But also, the U.S. is most certainly not CLOSEST to a dystopia, come on,
n.
Dystopia
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
Maybe characterized like that in your mind, but I guess it is all RELATIVE isn't it, in that case, there is no point even debating this, because I doubt you can offer a solution.
Human misery?? Human misery is Nazi Germany, oppression is Stalinist Russia, Major disease? Overcrowding, that is definitely NOT the USA today. Sorry.
the province of quebec (french canada)
End of thread right here, BAM.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Granted, but all countries have some level of dystopic living. However, I just can't view American society as a whole to be a dystopia. It wouldn't be fair to other countries who are characterized by misery.
Actually, noted Communists like Warren Buffet and the Gates oppose things like the repeal of the Estate Tax.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
EVERYONE on the bottom is doomed?? Cut me the crap, sure there are people that will always be on the bottom, some belong there because they don't help themselves and some DO NOT belong there. I'll agree that is a problem, but than what is the solution?? Huh? Everyone can't be RICH!!! Its literally IMPOSSIBLE. But if you want keep raising taxes, call Mr. Gates up and start demanding more donations and MORE subsidation of everything from healthcare, education, to just about anything else you can think of. That will definitely fix the problem, yep. Taxes, taxes, taxes. But I digress, I am assuming, please give me your opinion on what you think that solution to that problem is.
Liberia
Argentina
dystopia 2
Admitting that Capitalism isn't some wonder economy where merit decides wealth.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
But I digress, I am assuming, please give me your opinion on what you think that solution to that problem is.
Where did you get that definition?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
n.
Dystopia
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
1. Somalia
2. Iraq
3. Afghanistan
4. Haiti
5. Sierra Leone
6. Democratic Republic of Congo
7. Sudan
8. Zimbabwe
9. Nigeria
10. Delaware
2. Iraq
3. Afghanistan
4. Haiti
5. Sierra Leone
6. Democratic Republic of Congo
7. Sudan
8. Zimbabwe
9. Nigeria
10. Delaware
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-23 00:56:27)
Bubbalo, they are getting this defination from here. It is the first one in the list.Bubbalo wrote:
Where did you get that definition?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
n.
Dystopia
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
In a way, nepotism and snobbery can contribute to the individual wealth of the 'overprivileged,' but there's nothing truly stopping anyone from applying themselves to their studies and learning a vocation with a decent pay, short of a mental or physical bar.Bubbalo wrote:
Admitting that Capitalism isn't some wonder economy where merit decides wealth.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
But I digress, I am assuming, please give me your opinion on what you think that solution to that problem is.
Dictionary.com. Similar descriptions can be found in book form. Calling the US a dystopia is like calling a social drinker a bottom-rung, hopeless drunken bum who molests children.Bubbalo wrote:
Where did you get that definition?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
n.
Dystopia
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
The only definition that's even vaguely useful in a discussion is that from the OED. Even you're going to prove someone wrong by definition, go there.
Based on my definition, the US is the closest to dystopia.
Based on my definition, the US is the closest to dystopia.
The Lower class in the US is Oppressed? Really? Depends on how you look at it.dubbs wrote:
Phantom, did you do any research or do you know what the definition of a dystopia is? Depending on how you define it, the US is a dystopia, read my former post. In the US, people on welfare are encouraged to stay on welfare, because the system does not assist those who are trying to get off of it.Phantom2828 wrote:
I was waiting for some fucktard to say that.Inspect@hDeck wrote:
United States
I bet that you are probably a well to do middle class resident in the US. I came from a very welfare dependent single parent family. I lived rent free in government housing, we got food stamps, and we got a welfare check each month. My brother and my health care was paid for by the government. I remember once, when my mother tried to get off welfare. She got a job, the government stated that they would provide my mother with child care during this time. The first day on the job, they told her that our income from the welfare check would be reduced. She did the math, and saw that the amount of money she was going to make at the job was far less then what we were getting at the time on welfare. We would have be disqualified for assisted living, our food stamps would be reduced (then completely removed), and the amount of money from the welfare check would start to decline. Due to this, she quit her job, it was not possible for her to support two kids (both of us were under 12) and work.
I have another example of how the US government does not help those who are trying to help themselves. At 12, I moved to live with my dad, step mom, step brother, and step sister. My stepmother could not work due to health issues when I lived with them. So my dad was the only person who brought income into our house, other then the less the 100 dollars a month that my stepmother got from Social Security. He and my step mother tried to get some government assistance, they applied for food stamps. The government stated that my father was making to much money. At the time my dad was making enough yearly to support a household of only 2 or 3 people. We had a total of 5 people in the house. On top of this, my stepmother's check from Social Security was being reduced because of my dad's wages. It got to the point that the Social Security office was saying that they were over paying my stepmother, and that my dad and she had to repay that money, and they would take a certain amount of the money out each month. This went on for years.
There are countless stories like this all across the nation. You could go into any ghetto, or government assisted living area in the US and find them. I know personally, other people who like my mom, choose to try to get off welfare, but found out that it would hurt their family in the long run.
Personally, I think that if you are on welfare, you are given a certain amount for your family based on size. You are also given a percentage of this money each month until it is gone. Once it is gone, it is gone, you do not get any more government assistance (there would be some exception to this). Also, those people that are trying to remove themselves from the system, should get extra benefits, and have different phases where this benefits start to fade away. Well that is my 2 pieces of copper alloy.
Edit:The US fits at least two of those. The lower class is oppressed. Remember Katrina, the lower class stated they were depressed, along with a certain race. Most urban areas are overcrowded. It may not be as dense as India or China, but the US has the third largest population behind the fore mentioned nations. The US does have some disease that can not be cured at this time. Cancers, Aids, certain STDs. Depending on where you at, you can live in a squalor neighborhood. The upper class may not see a filthy nation, but what about those people who live in the ghetto. Those who are in the lower class, who live in areas where they do not have grass in their front yard, just dirt, they see those conditions.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
I don't mean to pick words, but:
dys‧to‧pi‧a
–noun
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
A country with suburbs, hospitals, golf courses, "affirmative action," immigrant doctors and Mexican janitors doesn't necessarily fit that bill.
I know it is long, but read my first post. There are different types of dytopia nations. The US does fall under some of those descriptions.
1) welfare Hell Yeah why get a job when I could get paid for free (sounds like Opression to me)
2) Education Even the poorest of people can get educated (Public Libraries, Adult School <I know that one well cause I was a Acid dropping pot smoking punk who decided not to go to school, till I went to adult ed got my GED, and backed it up with an AA in computer Science, which was a fun and easy degree, completely paid for by me working nights washing dishes in a restuarant. Which allowed me to join the army where I have ben for the last 8 years serving my country, so people can shit talk it without repercussions>)
Even Illeagal Immigrants have more rights in the US then its citizens do. Now if thats Oppression then Somalia,NK,and Iraq have nothing on the US.
Uncured Diseases Yeah tell me 1 country that has cured AIDs,Cancer,and certain STDs..... I cannot think of one but if you can please let us all know.
As for having dirt instead of grass in they're front yards...thats nothing....thats petty....if they the people looking at dirt wanted grass its easy enough to get some. Thats Laziness and the lack of giving a fuck.
Anything else?
AIDS? Cancer? STD's? You're really stretching there. Tell me where in the world you can get a cure for AIDS, and I'll concede the point. At any rate, there are treatments that can prolong the life of people afflicted by terminal disease, on a case-by-case basis. I already allowed for the presence of poor living conditions in the US in a previous post, but there is no way you can convince me me that this is an overriding feature of US society. And in case you haven't noticed, 'the ghetto' is not solely a US attribute.dubbs wrote:
The US fits at least two of those. The lower class is oppressed. Remember Katrina, the lower class stated they were depressed, along with a certain race. Most urban areas are overcrowded. It may not be as dense as India or China, but the US has the third largest population behind the fore mentioned nations. The US does have some disease that can not be cured at this time. Cancers, Aids, certain STDs. Depending on where you at, you can live in a squalor neighborhood. The upper class may not see a filthy nation, but what about those people who live in the ghetto. Those who are in the lower class, who live in areas where they do not have grass in their front yard, just dirt, they see those conditions.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
I don't mean to pick words, but:
dys‧to‧pi‧a
–noun
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
A country with suburbs, hospitals, golf courses, "affirmative action," immigrant doctors and Mexican janitors doesn't necessarily fit that bill.
I know it is long, but read my first post. There are different types of dytopia nations. The US does fall under some of those descriptions.
Now you're just being silly. 'Brave New World,' for example, represents dystopia. But I can't find anywhere on my birth certificate anything about my being confined to a stratified social atmosphere. Being a mere high school graduate and dry goods merchant didn't stop James Cash Penney from launching his particular chain of stores.Bubbalo wrote:
The only definition that's even vaguely useful in a discussion is that from the OED. Even you're going to prove someone wrong by definition, go there.
Based on my definition, the US is the closest to dystopia.
Besides, I thought you were one of the people who thought that 'dictionary-whoring' on an internet forum was a silly thing to do...and now you're hauling Oxford into the equation?
No, I said the only definition that's vaguely useful is OED.
And a social system is more than simply the laws (again, Gattaca comes to mind).
And a social system is more than simply the laws (again, Gattaca comes to mind).
Oh, so movies are more valuable than dictionaries, here.Bubbalo wrote:
No, I said the only definition that's vaguely useful is OED.
And a social system is more than simply the laws (again, Gattaca comes to mind).
This was stated at the defination that unnamed gave as a dystopia. If you look at actual examples of a dystopia, you can see some that the US falls into. I am like you and believe that people should try to help themselves to a better life, and the whole America Dream idea. But, as our current welfare system is set up, the people in the lower class have a hard time actually moving up. Let me ask you this, where you one your own when you went to adult school? Where you supporting yourself without the help of other people? Did you have a family to support while you were doing this? Just because your situation allowed you to succeed, does not mean that everyone has the same situation. Like I said, I do believe that there are a lot of lazy people that are on welfare, but the system has a lot of issues, and because of these issues, it actually hurts the people who want to do things with their life.CannonFodder11b wrote:
The Lower class in the US is Oppressed? Really? Depends on how you look at it.
1) welfare Hell Yeah why get a job when I could get paid for free (sounds like Opression to me)
2) Education Even the poorest of people can get educated (Public Libraries, Adult School <I know that one well cause I was a Acid dropping pot smoking punk who decided not to go to school, till I went to adult ed got my GED, and backed it up with an AA in computer Science, which was a fun and easy degree, completely paid for by me working nights washing dishes in a restuarant. Which allowed me to join the army where I have ben for the last 8 years serving my country, so people can shit talk it without repercussions>)
Even Illeagal Immigrants have more rights in the US then its citizens do. Now if thats Oppression then Somalia,NK,and Iraq have nothing on the US.
I consider myself a partial success compared to where I came from. I do not think that I have met all of my potitial, but I was the first to get a college degree in my family. If it was not for me starting to work at the age of 16, and help out my family, and their support. I would be in the same situation that other people who grow up on the system are. At a young age, I made the choice that I would get away from the system. That I would not depend on the system. I believe that so much, that when my wife and I do have a hard time, I do not ask for help. Earlier this year I was unemployeed. I was close to not filing for unemployment because I did not want to use the system, even though in my state, you have part of your wages go to unemployment in case you are layed off.
I never said that there was one. Unnames defination stated that a dystopia stated that it is a society characterized by human misery caused by disease. The people in those situations are not the happiest people in the world.CannonFodder11b wrote:
Uncured Diseases Yeah tell me 1 country that has cured AIDs,Cancer,and certain STDs..... I cannot think of one but if you can please let us all know.
It is not completely laziness. I know that there are some people who can not afford to get the money for products to grow grass, and be able to have food on their table.CannonFodder11b wrote:
As for having dirt instead of grass in they're front yards...thats nothing....thats petty....if they the people looking at dirt wanted grass its easy enough to get some. Thats Laziness and the lack of giving a fuck.
Anything else?
This was stated at the defination that unnamed gave as a dystopia. If you look at actual examples of a dystopia, you can see some that the US falls into. I am like you and believe that people should try to help themselves to a better life, and the whole America Dream idea. But, as our current welfare system is set up, the people in the lower class have a hard time actually moving up.