You can join some branches of the service until your early thirties. That is a job. Also, you can recieve a college education and eventualy get a better one.Bubbalo wrote:
Okay:
His family was so strapped for cash that he had to work as soon as he was old enough. Unable to get an education, he is uneligible for most careers.
The job market. If there are no jobs, then you cannot get a job. That's the complaint with immigration. Game over. It happens, and people like you spit on those it happens to, whether you know it or not. There a million things out of one's control that can keep a man in poverty forever. Besides, how can a highschool dropout get an education? Community colleges won't accept dropouts, anyone over 21 is out of highschool for good. And education costs money, if a man is poor and severely indebted, it doesn't make sense that he can afford any schooling. You simply don't understand what POOR means. It means you have no money you do not owe to someone else. It means debt up to your ears, and you can't pay it because you're barely making enough to keep yourself alive. You middle class right wingers that rant about oppertunities need to get it through your heads that you don't know what poor is.lowing wrote:
What the hell does Mexicans have to do with getting an education and making yourself marketable in America? I am guessing you can't really fathom a real reason for this.jonsimon wrote:
Probably missed it cuz it was in an edit, sorry bout that.jonsimon wrote:
Sorry, I went to sleep last night, and I've neglected the forums til now, what challenge would that be?
Edit: Ah, I found it.
One reason?
Mexicans. There. Now choose, you can either tell me I'm right, or tell me the Right wing is fawning over illegal immigrants for nothing. Win-win for me.
Is that really the best you can do??
See, you really should have posted that to begin with.jonsimon wrote:
The job market. If there are no jobs, then you cannot get a job. That's the complaint with immigration. Game over. It happens, and people like you spit on those it happens to, whether you know it or not. There a million things out of one's control that can keep a man in poverty forever. Besides, how can a highschool dropout get an education? Community colleges won't accept dropouts, anyone over 21 is out of highschool for good. And education costs money, if a man is poor and severely indebted, it doesn't make sense that he can afford any schooling. You simply don't understand what POOR means. It means you have no money you do not owe to someone else. It means debt up to your ears, and you can't pay it because you're barely making enough to keep yourself alive. You middle class right wingers that rant about oppertunities need to get it through your heads that you don't know what poor is.lowing wrote:
What the hell does Mexicans have to do with getting an education and making yourself marketable in America? I am guessing you can't really fathom a real reason for this.jonsimon wrote:
Probably missed it cuz it was in an edit, sorry bout that.
Is that really the best you can do??
In this situation:deeznutz1245 wrote:
You can join some branches of the service until your early thirties. That is a job. Also, you can recieve a college education and eventualy get a better one.
you are most certainly going to be denied entrance in the military. You don't have a HS education, your ASVAB scores are going to be dismally low, and you probably will have other financial engagements that will eat into your enlistment bonus (if there is any). I would question how many "opportunities" are available in any society where military service is literally the only exit route for someone poor. It's easy to say "well, just join the military. It's a job." Truely the words of someone who has never had many opportunities denied them.jonsimon wrote:
The job market. If there are no jobs, then you cannot get a job. That's the complaint with immigration. Game over. It happens, and people like you spit on those it happens to, whether you know it or not. There a million things out of one's control that can keep a man in poverty forever. Besides, how can a highschool dropout get an education? Community colleges won't accept dropouts, anyone over 21 is out of highschool for good. And education costs money, if a man is poor and severely indebted, it doesn't make sense that he can afford any schooling. You simply don't understand what POOR means. It means you have no money you do not owe to someone else. It means debt up to your ears, and you can't pay it because you're barely making enough to keep yourself alive. You middle class right wingers that rant about oppertunities need to get it through your heads that you don't know what poor is.
Ok now for the shotgun blast through your post:jonsimon wrote:
The job market. If there are no jobs, then you cannot get a job. That's the complaint with immigration. Game over. It happens, and people like you spit on those it happens to, whether you know it or not. There a million things out of one's control that can keep a man in poverty forever. Besides, how can a highschool dropout get an education? Community colleges won't accept dropouts, anyone over 21 is out of highschool for good. And education costs money, if a man is poor and severely indebted, it doesn't make sense that he can afford any schooling. You simply don't understand what POOR means. It means you have no money you do not owe to someone else. It means debt up to your ears, and you can't pay it because you're barely making enough to keep yourself alive. You middle class right wingers that rant about oppertunities need to get it through your heads that you don't know what poor is.lowing wrote:
What the hell does Mexicans have to do with getting an education and making yourself marketable in America? I am guessing you can't really fathom a real reason for this.jonsimon wrote:
Probably missed it cuz it was in an edit, sorry bout that.
Is that really the best you can do??
Lowing is trying to say everyone is afforded the same opportunity in life. That is simply completely untrue. And yet he persists with his line of 'reasoning' carefully skirting the actual realities of life as applied to the totality of everyone within the nation.Phantom2828 wrote:
I think CameronPoe should look in a mirror.
Possibly if his uber ego allows it admit that he might just be wrong and the Zionist neo con lowing might be right
Last edited by Phantom2828 (2006-10-21 13:14:31)
You speak as if everyone is an ideal person of identical ability in life. Your reasoning affords no room for those who may not 'make smart decisions', although they try as hard as they can to do so. It is a cold system you are describing with little compassion, too simple and idealised: not compatible with reality. A mercenary world.Phantom2828 wrote:
Maybe not everyone can become some uber millionaire but everyone can certainly live with financial freedom as lowing has shown. I think everyone agrees that people that inherit money will of course have an advantage but that doesn't mean that everyone making smart decisions can't live comfortably.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-21 13:17:49)
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.CameronPoe wrote:
You speak as if everyone is an ideal person of identical ability in life. Your reasoning affords no room for those who may not 'make smart decisions', although they try as hard as they can to do so. It is a cold system you are describing with little compassion. A mercenary world.Phantom2828 wrote:
Maybe not everyone can become some uber millionaire but everyone can certainly live with financial freedom as lowing has shown. I think everyone agrees that people that inherit money will of course have an advantage but that doesn't mean that everyone making smart decisions can't live comfortably.
Last edited by Phantom2828 (2006-10-21 13:20:32)
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...Phantom2828 wrote:
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.CameronPoe wrote:
You speak as if everyone is an ideal person of identical ability in life. Your reasoning affords no room for those who may not 'make smart decisions', although they try as hard as they can to do so. It is a cold system you are describing with little compassion. A mercenary world.Phantom2828 wrote:
Maybe not everyone can become some uber millionaire but everyone can certainly live with financial freedom as lowing has shown. I think everyone agrees that people that inherit money will of course have an advantage but that doesn't mean that everyone making smart decisions can't live comfortably.
Education is by far the most important factor. Everyone has the power to finish HS its free and provided by the government. Did you know that if you finished HS and someone else didn't you both got a job and you saved the difference in pay you make in a bank with interest you would have 6.5 million dollars at age 65.
So remember kids finish HS and don't spend your money on cheap booze and hookers and you will be ok.
Everyone likes to blame everything else for their circumstance. . . .CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...Phantom2828 wrote:
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.CameronPoe wrote:
You speak as if everyone is an ideal person of identical ability in life. Your reasoning affords no room for those who may not 'make smart decisions', although they try as hard as they can to do so. It is a cold system you are describing with little compassion. A mercenary world.
Education is by far the most important factor. Everyone has the power to finish HS its free and provided by the government. Did you know that if you finished HS and someone else didn't you both got a job and you saved the difference in pay you make in a bank with interest you would have 6.5 million dollars at age 65.
So remember kids finish HS and don't spend your money on cheap booze and hookers and you will be ok.
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
The European way is to pay higher taxes in the interests of giving those whose circumstances are against them a helping hand to become self-sufficient and successful. I'm testament to that: from poverty to university graduate on a very healthy salary.fadedsteve wrote:
Everyone likes to blame everything else for their circumstance. . . .CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...Phantom2828 wrote:
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.
Education is by far the most important factor. Everyone has the power to finish HS its free and provided by the government. Did you know that if you finished HS and someone else didn't you both got a job and you saved the difference in pay you make in a bank with interest you would have 6.5 million dollars at age 65.
So remember kids finish HS and don't spend your money on cheap booze and hookers and you will be ok.
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
Bottom line, is if you want to succeed and have the drive to do so, you will be successful. America has all the opportunities at its disposal, its up to the INDIVIDUAL to make a choice one way or the other. Blaming their family, surroundings, state in which they live, school etc etc is an out of blaming one's self for failure. Why is it then that dirt poor people make it in this country everyday with all the odds stacked against them. They make it, because they dont rely on the government for a handout, or anyone else, they rely on themselves.
It is tougher to make it when all those circumstances are up against you, but then again, its only a circumstance. Its just the odds dont favor success for people up against those odds. It seems that the democrats seem to enjoy paying the difference for people who choose to fail. I think thats bad policy, and I dont think my taxes should be increased to pay the difference for that.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-21 13:59:13)
What does a persons parents have to do with you taking responsibility for your own actions?? I didn't exactly grow up in a TV sit-com family enviroment either. I will also add this: After I grew up I recognized what I lacked in a father as a kid and I turned it into something positive. I know what my kids need from me as a father based on what I wish I had as a kid. MY kids don't go a day without encouragement, ego boosting, attention, compassion, and daily shower of "I love you"s. The liberal tactic for blaming everyone around you EXCEPT yourself will NOT wash Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...Phantom2828 wrote:
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.CameronPoe wrote:
You speak as if everyone is an ideal person of identical ability in life. Your reasoning affords no room for those who may not 'make smart decisions', although they try as hard as they can to do so. It is a cold system you are describing with little compassion. A mercenary world.
Education is by far the most important factor. Everyone has the power to finish HS its free and provided by the government. Did you know that if you finished HS and someone else didn't you both got a job and you saved the difference in pay you make in a bank with interest you would have 6.5 million dollars at age 65.
So remember kids finish HS and don't spend your money on cheap booze and hookers and you will be ok.
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
You can't apply your particular example to EVERYONE lowing. That is your flaw - because you made it everyone can. That's just not true. There are kids who are born addicted to drugs for gods sake. People also have varying degrees of ability, both mental and physical. Those of limited ability are always going to be at a loss in your perfect world model. You seem to live in a society of one (or 'your family'). It's very mercenary and not very compassionate.lowing wrote:
What does a persons parents have to do with you taking responsibility for your own actions?? I didn't exactly grow up in a TV sit-com family enviroment either. I will also add this: After I grew up I recognized what I lacked in a father as a kid and I turned it into something positive. I know what my kids need from me as a father based on what I wish I had as a kid. MY kids don't go a day without encouragement, ego boosting, attention, compassion, and daily shower of "I love you"s. The liberal tactic for blaming everyone around you EXCEPT yourself will NOT wash Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...Phantom2828 wrote:
You don't deserve money if you don't make smart decisions and spend your money on booze and cheap hookers. Smart decisions.
Education is by far the most important factor. Everyone has the power to finish HS its free and provided by the government. Did you know that if you finished HS and someone else didn't you both got a job and you saved the difference in pay you make in a bank with interest you would have 6.5 million dollars at age 65.
So remember kids finish HS and don't spend your money on cheap booze and hookers and you will be ok.
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-21 14:02:56)
I believe this is what we have in the US right now.CameronPoe wrote:
The European way is to pay higher taxes in the interests of giving those whose circumstances are against them a helping hand to become self-sufficient and successful. I'm testament to that: from poverty to university graduate on a very healthy salary.fadedsteve wrote:
Everyone likes to blame everything else for their circumstance. . . .CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
Bottom line, is if you want to succeed and have the drive to do so, you will be successful. America has all the opportunities at its disposal, its up to the INDIVIDUAL to make a choice one way or the other. Blaming their family, surroundings, state in which they live, school etc etc is an out of blaming one's self for failure. Why is it then that dirt poor people make it in this country everyday with all the odds stacked against them. They make it, because they dont rely on the government for a handout, or anyone else, they rely on themselves.
It is tougher to make it when all those circumstances are up against you, but then again, its only a circumstance. Its just the odds dont favor success for people up against those odds. It seems that the democrats seem to enjoy paying the difference for people who choose to fail. I think thats bad policy, and I dont think my taxes should be increased to pay the difference for that.
I believe this policy is why we have a higher quality of life/standard of living than in the US, but less millionaires.
Ahhhhhhh, so in Europe I can only assume that you are FORCED to get an education. The choice WAS NOT YOURS TO MAKE. I assume that if the choice was yours, and you chose NOT to get educated, you would not be enjoying your life as you know it now. Good thing the responsibility was taken from you and university was force fed you. There is no telling what might have become of you.CameronPoe wrote:
The European way is to pay higher taxes in the interests of giving those whose circumstances are against them a helping hand to become self-sufficient and successful. I'm testament to that: from poverty to university graduate on a very healthy salary.fadedsteve wrote:
Everyone likes to blame everything else for their circumstance. . . .CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
Bottom line, is if you want to succeed and have the drive to do so, you will be successful. America has all the opportunities at its disposal, its up to the INDIVIDUAL to make a choice one way or the other. Blaming their family, surroundings, state in which they live, school etc etc is an out of blaming one's self for failure. Why is it then that dirt poor people make it in this country everyday with all the odds stacked against them. They make it, because they dont rely on the government for a handout, or anyone else, they rely on themselves.
It is tougher to make it when all those circumstances are up against you, but then again, its only a circumstance. Its just the odds dont favor success for people up against those odds. It seems that the democrats seem to enjoy paying the difference for people who choose to fail. I think thats bad policy, and I dont think my taxes should be increased to pay the difference for that.
I believe this policy is why we have a higher quality of life/standard of living than in the US, but less millionaires.
Cam, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that I EXCLUDED those that can not help themselves, yes that would include the disabled and children. I have always maintained that I support programs that help the absolute helpless.CameronPoe wrote:
You can't apply your particular example to EVERYONE lowing. That is your flaw - because you made it everyone can. That's just not true. There are kids who are born addicted to drugs for gods sake. People also have varying degrees of ability, both mental and physical. Those of limited ability are always going to be at a loss in your perfect world model. You seem to live in a society of one (or 'your family'). It's very mercenary and not very compassionate.lowing wrote:
What does a persons parents have to do with you taking responsibility for your own actions?? I didn't exactly grow up in a TV sit-com family enviroment either. I will also add this: After I grew up I recognized what I lacked in a father as a kid and I turned it into something positive. I know what my kids need from me as a father based on what I wish I had as a kid. MY kids don't go a day without encouragement, ego boosting, attention, compassion, and daily shower of "I love you"s. The liberal tactic for blaming everyone around you EXCEPT yourself will NOT wash Cam.CameronPoe wrote:
Have you considered that you might not finish high school because life isn't ideal and your parents might be a bunch of wastebag losers? I don't see much 'identical equal opportunity' there...
Have you also ever considered that there can be less jobs than there are people to fill them... another dose of reality....
Stupid decisions for you equals cheap booze and hookers? How about making a risky investment that goes belly up? Please be sensible.
I didn't have to go to university. I had to attend school until I was 16. The government gave me €3000 a year to go because my parents were low-income, they paid all of my uni fees too - all on the taxpayer. Now I repay that debt to society every year to the tune of €12000. I'd like to thank fellow taxpayers for helping me become a success. I chose to study engineering and was successful, working hard to attain a first class honours degree. Does that sound like someone who would have been happy to 'blame someone else'? I don't think so.lowing wrote:
Ahhhhhhh, so in Europe I can only assume that you are FORCED to get an education. The choice WAS NOT YOURS TO MAKE. I assume that if the choice was yours, and you chose NOT to get educated, you would not be enjoying your life as you know it now. Good thing the responsibility was taken from you and university was force fed you. There is no telling what might have become of you.
Or do I have it wrong??...........You actually took advantage of programs in place to help you, and you suceeded. Hmmmmmmmmm I like the way you think Cam, keep talkin' I will win this one yet.
Yes yes, but you CHOSE TO GO TO SCHOOL, right???? You came from a poor family, WANTED a higher education and with assistence got it!!.........Cam, you are doing nothing but proving my point. I just don't get it. YOu took the inititive to finsh school and now you are prospering from your decision. Congrats.CameronPoe wrote:
I didn't have to go to university. I had to attend school until I was 16. The government gave me €3000 a year to go because my parents were low-income, they paid all of my uni fees too - all on the taxpayer. Now I repay that debt to society every year to the tune of €12000. I'd like to thank fellow taxpayers for helping me become a success. I chose to study engineering and was successful, working hard to attain a first class honours degree. Does that sound like someone who would have been happy to 'blame someone else'? I don't think so.lowing wrote:
Ahhhhhhh, so in Europe I can only assume that you are FORCED to get an education. The choice WAS NOT YOURS TO MAKE. I assume that if the choice was yours, and you chose NOT to get educated, you would not be enjoying your life as you know it now. Good thing the responsibility was taken from you and university was force fed you. There is no telling what might have become of you.
Or do I have it wrong??...........You actually took advantage of programs in place to help you, and you suceeded. Hmmmmmmmmm I like the way you think Cam, keep talkin' I will win this one yet.
Last edited by lowing (2006-10-21 14:15:39)
You are missing the argument. My argument is in favour of taxing the rich to facilitate the development of the less well off. I would not have been able to obtain said degree if it were not for our generous welfare system here in Ireland. It goes without saying that you won't progress unless you work hard but affording everyone as much oppportunity to be able to make it, meeting them half way, is what I'm about.lowing wrote:
Yes yes, but you CHOSE TO GO TO SCHOOL, right???? You came from a poor family, WANTED a higher education and with assistence got it!!.........Cam, you are doing nothing but proving my point. I just don't get it. YOu took the inititive to finsh school and now you are prospering from your decision. Congrats.CameronPoe wrote:
I didn't have to go to university. I had to attend school until I was 16. The government gave me €3000 a year to go because my parents were low-income, they paid all of my uni fees too - all on the taxpayer. Now I repay that debt to society every year to the tune of €12000. I'd like to thank fellow taxpayers for helping me become a success. I chose to study engineering and was successful, working hard to attain a first class honours degree. Does that sound like someone who would have been happy to 'blame someone else'? I don't think so.lowing wrote:
Ahhhhhhh, so in Europe I can only assume that you are FORCED to get an education. The choice WAS NOT YOURS TO MAKE. I assume that if the choice was yours, and you chose NOT to get educated, you would not be enjoying your life as you know it now. Good thing the responsibility was taken from you and university was force fed you. There is no telling what might have become of you.
Or do I have it wrong??...........You actually took advantage of programs in place to help you, and you suceeded. Hmmmmmmmmm I like the way you think Cam, keep talkin' I will win this one yet.
PS ....I noted the "worked hard" in your post as well.............Now you know the point I have been trying to make all this time...........thank you
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-21 14:18:41)
And your missing my point: That we have programs in place for that exact kind of assistence. YOU took advantage of it, I am talking about those that don't.CameronPoe wrote:
You are missing the argument. My argument is in favour of taxing the rich to facilitate the develop of the less well off. I would not have been able to obtain said degree if it were not for our generous welfare system here in Ireland.lowing wrote:
Yes yes, but you CHOSE TO GO TO SCHOOL, right???? You came from a poor family, WANTED a higher education and with assistence got it!!.........Cam, you are doing nothing but proving my point. I just don't get it. YOu took the inititive to finsh school and now you are prospering from your decision. Congrats.CameronPoe wrote:
I didn't have to go to university. I had to attend school until I was 16. The government gave me €3000 a year to go because my parents were low-income, they paid all of my uni fees too - all on the taxpayer. Now I repay that debt to society every year to the tune of €12000. I'd like to thank fellow taxpayers for helping me become a success. I chose to study engineering and was successful, working hard to attain a first class honours degree. Does that sound like someone who would have been happy to 'blame someone else'? I don't think so.
PS ....I noted the "worked hard" in your post as well.............Now you know the point I have been trying to make all this time...........thank you
Last edited by lowing (2006-10-21 14:20:03)
You're basically making a pointless argument then. You're saying: I don't like people who are lazy. It's not much of a point. You started out with complaints about welfare systems and have since wittled it down to this one 'point'. For me, no matter how much of a lost cause someone is, they need to have every opportunity to achieve through welfare. If they choose not to take that opportunity then so be it. Most people do. Only a tiny minority don't. To have them on the streets is NOT right. Society suffers as crime increases and these people become a burden in other ways. I don't mind paying for them - they are just an unfortunate aspect of reality. I'm not going to have those that are trying denied welfare because of the inaction of the few.lowing wrote:
And your missing my point: That we have programs in place for that exact kind of assistence. YOU took advantage of it, I am taking about those that don't.CameronPoe wrote:
You are missing the argument. My argument is in favour of taxing the rich to facilitate the develop of the less well off. I would not have been able to obtain said degree if it were not for our generous welfare system here in Ireland.lowing wrote:
Yes yes, but you CHOSE TO GO TO SCHOOL, right???? You came from a poor family, WANTED a higher education and with assistence got it!!.........Cam, you are doing nothing but proving my point. I just don't get it. YOu took the inititive to finsh school and now you are prospering from your decision. Congrats.
PS ....I noted the "worked hard" in your post as well.............Now you know the point I have been trying to make all this time...........thank you
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-21 14:22:40)