With respect to your original post - I'm critically appraising the entire west - I'm not differentiating between the US and Europe here. As such, nationalism isn't playing a part in my arguments.D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
Lol, sure we can! I still love you honey ;-)arabeater wrote:
Very True. Can we still be friends?D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
You do all realize that this debate is pointless.. ?
People can't keep to the facts in debates like this, because eventually the debate gets turned into the European population against the US population..
And even IF people keep to the facts, that doesn't change a thing, because everyone will interpret the facts differently since everyone has a different view on the facts..
It's not like this is an accusation towards anyone.. Because we can't help it..
Nationalism is in everyone's blood, no one likes to hear someone calling his/her people/country bad things.. :-)
Anyway, that's only my opinion on debates like this..
Of course I guess it's always good to adress an issue like this from time to time..
I <3 karma for 2-month-old posts.
Yay! America loves EuropeD34TH_D34L3R wrote:
Lol, sure we can! I still love you honey ;-)arabeater wrote:
Very True. Can we still be friends?D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
You do all realize that this debate is pointless.. ?
People can't keep to the facts in debates like this, because eventually the debate gets turned into the European population against the US population..
And even IF people keep to the facts, that doesn't change a thing, because everyone will interpret the facts differently since everyone has a different view on the facts..
It's not like this is an accusation towards anyone.. Because we can't help it..
Nationalism is in everyone's blood, no one likes to hear someone calling his/her people/country bad things.. :-)
Anyway, that's only my opinion on debates like this..
Of course I guess it's always good to adress an issue like this from time to time..
As I said before: I don't accuse anyone of anything.. All I did was saying how I feel about these things..
By the way; even though I feel that nationalism is in everyone's blood, that doesn't mean that people can't criticize his/her own government, or others, keeping to the facts and how they interpret them..
US citizens criticize the moves the US makes, and so do EU citizens with their leaders' decisions..
But I believe that you can't deny that most of the time over 50% of the posts and comments about this subject result in somewhat of an European VS US discussion?
By the way; even though I feel that nationalism is in everyone's blood, that doesn't mean that people can't criticize his/her own government, or others, keeping to the facts and how they interpret them..
US citizens criticize the moves the US makes, and so do EU citizens with their leaders' decisions..
But I believe that you can't deny that most of the time over 50% of the posts and comments about this subject result in somewhat of an European VS US discussion?
I wouldnt say 50%. Maybe more like all of it.D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
As I said before: I don't accuse anyone of anything.. All I did was saying how I feel about these things..
By the way; even though I feel that nationalism is in everyone's blood, that doesn't mean that people can't criticize his/her own government, or others, keeping to the facts and how they interpret them..
US citizens criticize the moves the US makes, and so do EU citizens with their leaders' decisions..
But I believe that you can't deny that most of the time over 50% of the posts and comments about this subject result in somewhat of an European VS US discussion?
Yes, well actually I honestly think it 'd really be around 90%..arabeater wrote:
I wouldnt say 50%. Maybe more like all of it.D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
As I said before: I don't accuse anyone of anything.. All I did was saying how I feel about these things..
By the way; even though I feel that nationalism is in everyone's blood, that doesn't mean that people can't criticize his/her own government, or others, keeping to the facts and how they interpret them..
US citizens criticize the moves the US makes, and so do EU citizens with their leaders' decisions..
But I believe that you can't deny that most of the time over 50% of the posts and comments about this subject result in somewhat of an European VS US discussion?
But as my parents always said: "Always be careful with what you say on certain subjects.."
Yea. It is kinda funny how different Americans are from the Europeans. Disagree on alot of things.D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
Yes, well actually I honestly think it 'd really be around 90%..arabeater wrote:
I wouldnt say 50%. Maybe more like all of it.D34TH_D34L3R wrote:
As I said before: I don't accuse anyone of anything.. All I did was saying how I feel about these things..
By the way; even though I feel that nationalism is in everyone's blood, that doesn't mean that people can't criticize his/her own government, or others, keeping to the facts and how they interpret them..
US citizens criticize the moves the US makes, and so do EU citizens with their leaders' decisions..
But I believe that you can't deny that most of the time over 50% of the posts and comments about this subject result in somewhat of an European VS US discussion?
But as my parents always said: "Always be careful with what you say on certain subjects.."
Wait you think theyre in it for 40 virgins? Whats America in it for Freedom? No statistics show that the war on terror has increased the chances for another attack and lets not for get the minimum of 480 000 Iraqi civilians killed. America is in 9/11 for the revenge just like Bin Laden attacked the WTC for revenge for the US supporting Israel against muslims. Now dont you think its a stupid fucking idea to kil 480 000 civilians for 3000 that died in a terrorist attack? Oh no thats just collateral damage that was what the WTC were from Bin Ladens perspecive just Collateral damage. It was a strike back against the people that opressed him. Even though your very own CIA trained him. They did try to kill him in 1998 i think it is. They just scored a lot of Collateral damage he was informed of a cruise missle heading his way and flee'd instead the missle killed a few mothers children and terrorists. Back on track people blow themselves up because of revenge if your best friend was killed by a terrorist wouldnt you go out and join the military to get even with the SOB's that killed him? Well guess what Afgans are humans too and they also beleive in revenge and killing 480 000 people does a lot for terrorist recruitment. In those 480 000 you have killed friends,family,loved ones and you suspect them to sit back and do nothing? Yeah theyre just going to sit in their chairs and twiddle their thumbs while you massacre a lot of the population. Its better being a soldier then a civilian. The only chance they see to get their revenge is to be a terrorist. You killed Hackmeds family so Hackmed will blow himself up and kill your troops. Its simple withdraw call a truce do what you want to do and just stop fucking around in another persons country. Its Iraq Osama isnt their and neither are the WMD's just piss your troops outta there you might save some lives. I do remember that Osama called for a truce but GWB being the great smart leader said we do not negotiate with terrorists im sure he can go fuck himself cause he doesnt give 2 shits about all the troops and innocents that die. Once you get rid of that moron you might be able to see what a normal country operates like. Did anyone by some chance notice a news report how the Average American is getting dumber. Wow what a suprise with captain retard up there. Then again the president is just a hand puppet being controlled by military leaders and what not. Im not Anti American im Anti your government and his fucked up policies.
If they wanna keep joining these terrorist groups just to get back at us for being on their holy land then so be it. Ive got my M4 with 6 fully loaded clips and when thats spent an M249 with about 800 rounds. Look man I hear what your saying but you might as well face the facts, we are not leaving the middle east until either the arabs give up or we kill them all. That might sound bad but its the truth. We arent leaving anytime soon. That doesnt bother me at all. I have fun there and I make tons of money. Our president doesnt negotiate with criminals. I could never fathom calling a truce with that piece of shit. I dont blame them for joining these insurgent groups and attacking us but on the other hand if i see them i will have no problem killing them either. If somebody occupied the US I would attack them too. What news report is this? Its probably just some bullshit propaganda to bash the US.spray_and_pray wrote:
Wait you think theyre in it for 40 virgins? Whats America in it for Freedom? No statistics show that the war on terror has increased the chances for another attack and lets not for get the minimum of 480 000 Iraqi civilians killed. America is in 9/11 for the revenge just like Bin Laden attacked the WTC for revenge for the US supporting Israel against muslims. Now dont you think its a stupid fucking idea to kil 480 000 civilians for 3000 that died in a terrorist attack? Oh no thats just collateral damage that was what the WTC were from Bin Ladens perspecive just Collateral damage. It was a strike back against the people that opressed him. Even though your very own CIA trained him. They did try to kill him in 1998 i think it is. They just scored a lot of Collateral damage he was informed of a cruise missle heading his way and flee'd instead the missle killed a few mothers children and terrorists. Back on track people blow themselves up because of revenge if your best friend was killed by a terrorist wouldnt you go out and join the military to get even with the SOB's that killed him? Well guess what Afgans are humans too and they also beleive in revenge and killing 480 000 people does a lot for terrorist recruitment. In those 480 000 you have killed friends,family,loved ones and you suspect them to sit back and do nothing? Yeah theyre just going to sit in their chairs and twiddle their thumbs while you massacre a lot of the population. Its better being a soldier then a civilian. The only chance they see to get their revenge is to be a terrorist. You killed Hackmeds family so Hackmed will blow himself up and kill your troops. Its simple withdraw call a truce do what you want to do and just stop fucking around in another persons country. Its Iraq Osama isnt their and neither are the WMD's just piss your troops outta there you might save some lives. I do remember that Osama called for a truce but GWB being the great smart leader said we do not negotiate with terrorists im sure he can go fuck himself cause he doesnt give 2 shits about all the troops and innocents that die. Once you get rid of that moron you might be able to see what a normal country operates like. Did anyone by some chance notice a news report how the Average American is getting dumber. Wow what a suprise with captain retard up there. Then again the president is just a hand puppet being controlled by military leaders and what not. Im not Anti American im Anti your government and his fucked up policies.
CameronPoe wrote:
1. Why should we care if the rest of the world is blowing itself up? That's their prerogative - it's part of their 'growing up' process. We in the western world have, by and large, finished 'blowing each other up' - the rest will too at some point.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Tell you what: the rest of the world stops blowing eachother up, and the US will have no excuse to stage invasion.CameronPoe wrote:
I pick option c) the west stays the fuck out of the affairs of others bar giving them financial aid if/when required. No pre-emptive wars. If something does happen, respond in an appropriate, considered and measured manner.
1 & 2 are contradictory. Fencing off the third world to fend for itself isn't exactly compassionate. 3 doesn't take into account that western culture isn't the only one guilty of imperialism, and that it's seen its fair share of invasion. Can it get any reparations from the (ex-)Ottomans for their acquisitive past? 4...unfair? Perhaps. Historic continuity? Pretty much. At the most base level, all it amounts to is natural selection on a larger scale. Callous, but accurate. Gradually, perhaps, moral action will supercede greed, but there is only so much a small amount of people who actually give a shit can do. Also, the post 2, 3 and 4 replied to was written not in the individual sense, but more as a whole.CameronPoe wrote:
2. A) Compassion - you are human aren't you?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
And why the heck should the west help anyone monetarily if they don't get anything back for it?
3. B) In many cases the west owes it to certain regions/countries for past colonialism and the raping of said countries resources.
4. C) The global system of finance and movement of capital inherently puts developing nations at a disadvantage to their richer neighbours in the west (who easily subject them to economic imperialism). Something which I find unfair and that I think needs to be redressed otherwise they will never achieve similar standards of living to us.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-17 09:06:51)
1 & 2: Not contradictory. Political or military intervention is not the same as financial or humanitarian aid.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:
1. Why should we care if the rest of the world is blowing itself up? That's their prerogative - it's part of their 'growing up' process. We in the western world have, by and large, finished 'blowing each other up' - the rest will too at some point.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Tell you what: the rest of the world stops blowing eachother up, and the US will have no excuse to stage invasion.1 & 2 are contradictory. Fencing off the third world to fend for itself isn't exactly compassionate. 3 doesn't take into account that western culture isn't the only one guilty of imperialism, and that it's seen its fair share of invasion. Can it get any reparations from the (ex-)Ottomans for their acquisitive past? 4...unfair? Perhaps. Historic continuity? Pretty much. At the most base level, all it amounts to is natural selection on a larger scale. Callous, but accurate. Gradually, perhaps, moral action will supercede greed, but there is only so much a small amount of people who actually give a shit can do. Also, the post 2, 3 and 4 replied to was written not in the individual sense, but more as a whole.CameronPoe wrote:
2. A) Compassion - you are human aren't you?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
And why the heck should the west help anyone monetarily if they don't get anything back for it?
3. B) In many cases the west owes it to certain regions/countries for past colonialism and the raping of said countries resources.
4. C) The global system of finance and movement of capital inherently puts developing nations at a disadvantage to their richer neighbours in the west (who easily subject them to economic imperialism). Something which I find unfair and that I think needs to be redressed otherwise they will never achieve similar standards of living to us.
3: I wasn't referring to anywhere other than the west. The same principles apply to other though. The Ottomans have a lot to answer for in Palestine, that's for sure.
4: We are enlightened and civilised now. 'Natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest' is not a process we are forced to adopt, we can soften it where necessary or for the common good.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-17 09:22:53)
1/2: Financial and humanitarian aid can be confiscated.CameronPoe wrote:
1 & 2: Not contradictory. Political or military intervention is not the same as financial or humanitarian aid.
3: I wasn't referring to anywhere other than the west. The same principles apply to other though. The Ottomans have a lot to answer for in Palestine, that's for sure.
4: We are enlightened and civilised now. 'Natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest' is not a process we are forced to adopt, we can soften it where necessary or for the common good.
3: I suppose you weren't, but that's the common accusation I hear from alot of people. And exactly.
4: Enlightened and civilized, to a certain extent. Humans aren't very long out of (for the sake of argument) the jungle. Currently, this sort of 'natural selection' will carry on as usual until countermanded by massive moral intervention. Unfortunately, some honest attempts to help are met with violent opposition, which only serves to inflame worldly discord.
Off topic, I suppose the world can be thankful that the US wasn't an Axis power in the 40s. US foreign policy later, in such an alternate universe, would be unthinkable.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-17 09:37:57)