jonsimon
Member
+224|6465

SpaceApollyon wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

I disagree with any law like this.  The word "though-crime" comes to mind.
Honestly, I thought France was above Orwellian government.
There are many things you cant legally say in public, this is just one more. It has close to nothing to do with what one is allowed to think about the subject. In principle I am against such laws because they may hinder/handicap debates about history. On the other hand, I am all for making these kind of events as widely known as possible. You must agree that this is a great way to arouse peoples interest on the matter.
In America you can say damn near anything, fighting words exempt (or you could a year ago at least).
apollo_fi
The Flying Kalakukko.
+94|6501|The lunar module

SpaceApollyon wrote:

There are many things you cant legally say in public, this is just one more. It has close to nothing to do with what one is allowed to think about the subject.
Hey, cool nick you've got there

I'm wondering, as a fellow Finn, what exactly are the things I cannot legally utter in public? Can't think of any off the top of my head.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

jonsimon wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


Honestly, I thought France was above Orwellian government.
There are many things you cant legally say in public, this is just one more. It has close to nothing to do with what one is allowed to think about the subject. In principle I am against such laws because they may hinder/handicap debates about history. On the other hand, I am all for making these kind of events as widely known as possible. You must agree that this is a great way to arouse peoples interest on the matter.
In America you can say damn near anything, fighting words exempt (or you could a year ago at least).
Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
Vartan
Member
+10|6713|Belgium
Turkey was given the chance to acknowledge its past many many times. Everytime, they turned it down. They honestly act like jerks towards pretty much everybody in the EU. Their arrogance isn't welcome and their crime against humanity AND lack of human rights over THERE are just here to remind us how no country in this world should go unpunished for its crimes.

They tried passing such a law in Belgium too but it didn't make it because of the strong Turkish community in Belgium putting pressure on the govt. I don't like the idea of putting limits to "free speech" but after all, this is the only way.

The fine can be up to 40k € and 1 year of prison sentence. I don't know how it'll work but all I can do is giving the heads up to France for standing up against Turkey in a more affirmative way.

Last edited by Vartan (2006-10-13 13:45:35)

SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6490|Finland

apollo_fi wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:

There are many things you cant legally say in public, this is just one more. It has close to nothing to do with what one is allowed to think about the subject.
Hey, cool nick you've got there

I'm wondering, as a fellow Finn, what exactly are the things I cannot legally utter in public? Can't think of any off the top of my head.
Thanks, I like my nick too

And to your good question, I was mainly thinking about the Finnish law against Ethnic agitation, which is based on the United Nations racial discrimination resolution (2106)(Link 2). There are also similar laws about such behavior against a single person.

The law:
"A person who spreads statements or other notices among the public where a certain race or national, ethnic or religious group or a comparable group is threatened, slandered or insulted shall be sentenced for ethnic agitation to a fine or to imprisonment for a maximum of two years."(Link 1)

This law is very much in use and juridical actions are probably ongoing as we speak, so keep your head cool when you're about to make such remarks The reason I know about this, is because one of my favorite joke sites had to close because the webmaster of the site was indicted! (He was later found unguilty though)

Links:
1. Finnish Penal Code: Genocide, Preparation for Genocide and Ethnic Agitation
    http://www.preventgenocide.org/fi/rikoslaki.htm
2. UN: Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, New York 1965
    http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cerd.htm
3. In FINNISH only:
    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiihottami … A4_vastaan
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

sergeriver wrote:

Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
If we start by outlawing ignorance, what do we outlaw next?  Stupidity?  Lack of fashion sense?
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6461|Menlo Park, CA
Don't the French have something better to do??

Like improve their economy and their unemployment rate?? I mean cmon!!

The French just don't get it!! Would someone please invade them again!! please! . . . . .

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-10-14 01:09:49)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

Bubbalo wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
If we start by outlawing ignorance, what do we outlaw next?  Stupidity?  Lack of fashion sense?
I didn't expect that from you.  You are twisting my words to sound like you want.  Not all ignorants are racists, but all racists are ignorants.  What they are outlawing here is public racism.  If you wanna be a racist do it in your home, I think this is the main idea.
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|6645|Belgium
Some people are missing the point here... freedom of speech respects your right to have and to express your opinion (political, religion, etc.), but it does not mean you have the right to simply deny or contest plain and proven historical facts (http://www.armenian-genocide.org).

In his post Ottomaniac denied the historical fact of the genocide of the Armenian people, so he was not expressing his opinion.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6734|d
That's it. What is the Holocast ?
Chou
Member
+737|6761
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial


Laws against Holocaust denial
Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries: Austria (article 3h Verbotsgesetz 1947), Belgium (Belgian Negationism Law), the Czech Republic under section 261, France (Loi Gayssot), Germany (§ 130 (3) of the penal code) also the Auschwitzlüge law section 185, Lithuania, The Netherlands under articles 137c and 137e, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland (article 261bis of the Penal Code). In addition, under Law 5710-1950 it is also illegal in Israel.

The following punishments are used with regards to Holocaust Denial Laws: Austria (min: six months, max: twenty years (violent), ten years (non-violent)), Belgium (min: fine, max: one year), Czech Republic (min: six months, max: two years), France (min: fine/one month, max: two years), Germany (min: fine/six months max: five years), Israel (min: one year, max: five years), Lithuania (min: fine/two years, max: ten years (violent)), Poland (min: fine/three months, max: three years), Romania (min: six months, max: three years (public offender), five years (public servant offender)), Slovakia (min: fine/one month, max: three years) and Switzerland (min: fine/one year, max: fifteen months).

Many of these countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the criminalisation of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.

Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, a number (Austria, the Czech Republic, Germany, Romania, and Slovakia) were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as Nazi symbols. Additionally, scholars have pointed out that countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning hate speech. In the words of D. Guttenplan, this is a split between the "common law countries of the US, Britain, and former British colonies from the civil law countries of continental Europe. In civil law countries the law is generally more proscriptive. Also under the civil law regime the judge acts more as an inquisitor, gathering and presenting evidence as well as interpreting it"[49]

Many Holocaust deniers claim their work falls under a "universal right to free speech", and see these laws as a confirmation of their own beliefs, arguing that the truth does not need to be legally enforced. Some people who do not deny that the Holocaust occurred nevertheless oppose such restrictions of free speech, including, despite her legal battle with David Irving, Deborah Lipstadt. Another prominent opponent of the laws is Noam Chomsky. An uproar resulted when Serge Thion used one of Chomsky's essays without explicit permission as a foreword to a book of Holocaust denial essays. See: Criticism of Noam Chomsky. At times, Holocaust deniers seek to rely on Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees freedom of expression, when faced with criminal sanctions against their statements or publications. The European Court of Human Rights however consistently declares their complaints inadmissible. According to Article 17 of the Convention, nothing in the Convention may be construed so as to justify acts that are aimed at destroying any of the very rights and freedoms contained therein. Invoking free speech to propagate denial of crimes against humanity is, according to the Court's case-law, contrary to the spirit in which the Convention was adopted in the first place. Reliance on free speech in such cases would thus constitute an abuse of a fundamental right.

Last edited by Choumichel (2006-10-14 05:57:14)

oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6489|Πάϊ

Ikarti wrote:

they really haven't done anything more than make an idiot of themselves.
The thing is, its more serious than this. If enough people say it, then it is possible that history may change given enough time. I agree it sounds stupid to penalize it when you think about it at first, but then there's some historical facts that one cannot just ignore or deny, because that will alter the future.
ƒ³
jonsimon
Member
+224|6465

sergeriver wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

SpaceApollyon wrote:


There are many things you cant legally say in public, this is just one more. It has close to nothing to do with what one is allowed to think about the subject. In principle I am against such laws because they may hinder/handicap debates about history. On the other hand, I am all for making these kind of events as widely known as possible. You must agree that this is a great way to arouse peoples interest on the matter.
In America you can say damn near anything, fighting words exempt (or you could a year ago at least).
Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
Anyone can deny anything. There are logical and reasonable arguments to be made against the details of the holocaust. To restrict freedom of speech relating to the holocaust also restricts any sensible debate relating to it. This restriction on freedom of speech can only perpetrate ignorance, and varying viewpoints are the harold of education.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

jonsimon wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


In America you can say damn near anything, fighting words exempt (or you could a year ago at least).
Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
Anyone can deny anything. There are logical and reasonable arguments to be made against the details of the holocaust. To restrict freedom of speech relating to the holocaust also restricts any sensible debate relating to it. This restriction on freedom of speech can only perpetrate ignorance, and varying viewpoints are the harold of education.
You are wrong, ignorance perpetrates when people learn false facts.  History is truth and nobody can deny your freedom of speech relating the Holocaust if you talk with the truth, but you can't say it didn't happen.  Your freedom of speech ends right there m8.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6375|North Carolina
As repulsive as I find the denial of genocide (regardless of the victims involved) and of Turkey's treatment of their Kurds, banning any form of speech (aside from outright slander and the revelation of sensitive information) is detrimental to the concept of free speech.

France blew this one, and they likely did this only due to their prejudice against Turkey.  They've been the country most responsible for blocking Turkey's entry into the EU.
Ottomania
Troll has returned.
+62|6491|Istanbul-Turkey

sergeriver wrote:

History is truth
which history? yours or mine?

btw did you know that france give the codes of french made weapon systems of argentina to uk at falklands war?

Last edited by Ottomania (2006-10-15 06:28:21)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

Ottomania wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

History is truth
which history? yours or mine?

btw did you know that france give the codes of french made weapon systems of argentina to uk at falklands war?
I don't care.  That war was nothing compared with this.  Between UK and Argentina less than 1000 people died.  Turkish killed more than 1 million Armenians.  War is death from both sides, Genocide is extermination of one only.

This ain't your history or mine, this is just history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

http://www.genocide1915.info/

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html

http://www.armenocide.am/

Last edited by sergeriver (2006-10-15 06:54:12)

dead_rac00n
Member
+12|6453|DTC

Ottomania wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

History is truth
which history? yours or mine?

btw did you know that france give the codes of french made weapon systems of argentina to uk at falklands war?
And did you know that Turquie commited a genocide towards the armenian people ?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525
Sorry France but hang your head in shame. Restricting freedom of speech to pander to the needs of a minority is a big no-no in my book.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

CameronPoe wrote:

Sorry France but hang your head in shame. Restricting freedom of speech to pander to the needs of a minority is a big no-no in my book.
Freedom of speech yes, Genocide denial no.  If you let those assholes who deny the Armenian Genocide or The Holocaust talk their BS, then the kids can learn wrong history, and these two episodes should be learned in order to prevent another one to happen in the future.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Sorry France but hang your head in shame. Restricting freedom of speech to pander to the needs of a minority is a big no-no in my book.
Freedom of speech yes, Genocide denial no.  If you let those assholes who deny the Armenian Genocide or The Holocaust talk their BS, then the kids can learn wrong history, and these two episodes should be learned in order to prevent another one to happen in the future.
Sorry but you can put the details of the holocaust in the school curriculum and maybe ensure such views aren't allowed to be broadcast in the media but sending an individual to jail for saying something is plain wrong IMO.
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6672|New York

Spearhead wrote:

Heck, I'd say +100 to the French.  A lot of Americans hate them, but they really don't get the credit they deserve sometimes.

Call of Duty 3, coming out later this year, depicts the liberation of Paris.  In the game, you only get to play as American, Brit, Canadian, and Polish troops.  The liberation of Paris was actually performed by a French division.  Way to go America, the most "realistic" WW2 game of the year and you don't even get the F'ing countries right.  But w/e, the noobs will be pleased with just about anything that comes out with the words "INTENSE" and "REALISTIC WW2 COMBAT" spammed all over the box.
Yah, They get the credit in the books, we get the grave stones in Arlington to show for it and Vetos at the UN for it also. Go figure.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6727|Argentina

CameronPoe wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Sorry France but hang your head in shame. Restricting freedom of speech to pander to the needs of a minority is a big no-no in my book.
Freedom of speech yes, Genocide denial no.  If you let those assholes who deny the Armenian Genocide or The Holocaust talk their BS, then the kids can learn wrong history, and these two episodes should be learned in order to prevent another one to happen in the future.
Sorry but you can put the details of the holocaust in the school curriculum and maybe ensure such views aren't allowed to be broadcast in the media but sending an individual to jail for saying something is plain wrong IMO.
Last week one guy opened a threat questioning the Armenian Genocide and saying it didn't happen at all.  After some discussion between him and other people, a Mod closed the topic saying that denying the Armenian Genocide was racist.  Where did his freedom of speech go?  To the can, and btw the Mod was absolutely right.
Vampira_NB
Trying is the first step to failing
+76|6644|Canada Eh?

Spearhead wrote:

Heck, I'd say +100 to the French.  A lot of Americans hate them, but they really don't get the credit they deserve sometimes.

Call of Duty 3, coming out later this year, depicts the liberation of Paris.  In the game, you only get to play as American, Brit, Canadian, and Polish troops.  The liberation of Paris was actually performed by a French division.  Way to go America, the most "realistic" WW2 game of the year and you don't even get the F'ing countries right.  But w/e, the noobs will be pleased with just about anything that comes out with the words "INTENSE" and "REALISTIC WW2 COMBAT" spammed all over the box.
I'm just stoked that I can play as Canada in a war game for once! (Although I heard Canada was playable on 1942)
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6619

Bubbalo wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Nobody should deny this Genocide or the Holocaust, because who does is a complete ignorant, and ignorance is the worst of humans problems.
If we start by outlawing ignorance, what do we outlaw next?  Stupidity?  Lack of fashion sense?
I wish someone would outlaw stupidity...

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard