BF2S Forums Fornicating

IRONCHEF wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

I thought sex was a SIN? Not sacred. Well I wouldn't know anyways, I'm an atheist jew now anyways

And yes. I'd definately partake in it. One of the reasons why i'm now an atheist is because I'm not letting any morals stop me from living life to it's fullest.

I'd like to point out that the majority of people (my guess) in modern society probably think this way.  "Eat, Drink, Be merry for tomorrow we may die!"  Someone also said (cameron i think) that religion is slipping further and further away from what the world mandates.  This is also true, and we religious people realize it and saw it coming (thanks to ancient prophetic writings saying it would be this way).

So what then should happen?  Should religious people, who understand life better than those who aren't religious just give in and go along with the world on it's reckless pursuit of gluttony, anarchy, and ignorant bliss?  NO.  That's what makes us religious.

More importantly, on Poseidon's remark to live life to the fullest by indulging...I would like to reverse that and add a question, "How do you know that abstinence, if practiced and understood would not allow you to live life to the fullest?"  We practice abstinence (some of us) from pre-marital sex because in doing so we become masters of ourselves (as opposed to lathargic, gluttonous, and out of control) which gives satisfaction like nothing else can.  Acheiving a difficult goal, especially a spiritul one, brings huge benefits and blessings..even blessings undescribable that easily counter the effects of having 'lived life to the fullest' by engaging in pre-marital sex.

I don't drink alcohol, smoke, drink coffee, do harmful drugs, have extra-marital affairs, break laws, I try to hold my tongue in anger, and I avoid a host of other things that the world says is ok.  Guess what?  I'm living a much richer, more blessed, more happy life than I was before I started that 15 years ago.  I can say without a doubt that because of my sacrifices, my blessings far outweigh what I'd experience without the sacrifices.  And as added benefits, i'm not a wife beater, womanizer, child molester, criminal, drunk, STD carrier/passer, addict to a thousand different things, and probably other things.  Granted these are extremes...they are still not possible to me because i'm in control of myself.  And if you call that oppression, you're sorely mistaken.  Control is not oppression, unless it's a negative effect.

Actually, greater control is achieved through taking part in all things. It is thus that we can prove to ourselves we can control our person under the full range of circumstances.

If you abstain, you may or may not be living to the fullest, and you will never know. If you like that uncertainty, good for you.

Oh, and sorry, but you don't understand life any better than I do.

Poseidon wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Actually, greater control is achieved through taking part in all things. It is thus that we can prove to ourselves we can control our person under the full range of circumstances.

If you abstain, you may or may not be living to the fullest, and you will never know. If you like that uncertainty, good for you.

Oh, and sorry, but you don't understand life any better than I do.

Because you know how well I understand life and all through the internet. Aha, I see. Good concept!

I was referring to this:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Should religious people, who understand life better than those who aren't religious...

IRONCHEF wrote:

I see you've not grasped the concept I was illustrating..the sacrifice/blessing concept.  If you were raised by homosapiens, then you would have hopefully learned to be nice to people (a moral elaborated richly on in that 2000 year old book), perhaps have virtue and respect others virtue (again, elaborated by the 2000 year old book in the form of chastity, no pre-marital relations), and you might have been taught to stand up for something good (likewise elaborated on fully by the 2000 year old book).

THis book (bible = first compiled and named such, was done in the 4th century, though it has writings of people spanning time probably between 3000bc to 200ad give or take) you claim should not be running your life has teachings in it.  Such teachings have taught people how to improve their lives considerably more than if they had not read it.  This makes this book (also the most sold book EVER) pretty important.  In this book, there are stories, examples, and admonitions to sacrifice things to receive blessings.  YOU, not understanding this, will also not understand how sacrificing your pre-marital sex tendancies will end up giving you more happiness and satisfaction than indulging in it.  Likewise, giving up coffee, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, etc for a purpose given in a 2000 year old book..will indeed give you more of "life in the fullest."  When your nuts start itching cuz you have crabs, or when your penis burns when you pee because you have clamydia, you'll not think you're living life to the fullest.  Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.  I'd have gladly given up those (thankfully) harmless STDS for abstinence.  I can't imagine what i've had done if i got a girl pregnant or if i got a serious disease.  I know I would not have been living life to the fullest.  COuld you say the same thing in those situations? 

Sorry for the perceived insult, but yes, religious people who know where they came from, why they're here, and where they're going DO have a greater grasp on life.  THey're also the foremost on this earth trying to preserve life (despite their detractors who try to destroy it).

I've never read the bible. Not once. Not one part.

I'm doing pretty damn well if I say so myself. You're basically saying anyone who hasn't read the bible can not improve their life and will be a terrible person.

Also, just because I participate in pre-martial sex doesn't mean I'm going to be STD ridden, either. 'Tis called protection. I've got a 4 for 4 track record of going without STD's. I'm non religious, I'm not an idiot.

And uh, no. The bible didn't teach all morals known to man. Hammurabi's laws which were like I think 2000 BC were created much before the bible and taught people to respect each other, not steal, an eye-for-an-eye punishment, etc.

Also, again, you're saying anyone who's not christian/catholic/whatever is trying to ruin the earth. LOL, you sound like Kim Jong Il, "They're all out to get me!". 

I'm a freaking enviornmentalist, am I really ruining the earth by partaking in pre-marital sex? Pleeeease.

Last edited by Poseidon (2006-10-11 14:15:36)

Poseidon wrote:

I've never read the bible. Once. Not one part.

You're basically saying anyone who hasn't read the bible can not improve their life and will be a terrible person.

No, you said that.  I said religious people who know where they came from, why they're here, and know where they're going have a greater understanding of life.

Poseidon wrote:

And uh, no. The bible didn't teach all morals known to man. Hammurabi's laws which were like I think 2000 BC were created much before the bible and taught people to respect each other, not steal, an eye-for-an-eye punishment, etc.

I conceded that the bible was written in the 4th century (it was compiled, not actually written).  But it's writings span well before the hammurabi code and it lists mosiac law which has teachings you're speaking of.  Unfortunately, the patriarchs and prophets and Adam and his sons did not have records that were compiled into the bible, though they are anticipated and even mentioned (adam's 'book of rememberence').  And these books would have surely listed EVERY positive teaching our civilization would have known. 

More importantly though, is a religious teaching that on the 1st creative period (first day) as listed in genesis of the bible, light filled the earth (not the sun/moon/star light which came later).  THis light is what is called the light of christ.  It is what permeates every inch of this earth, it is what is inside every soul that is born here, and it is what guides us in our decisions.  In science it is referred to as your subconscious, and that's a correct assertion too.  Others call it intuition, little imps on your shoulder, or fuzzy feelings on your neck.  I would say that good morals in each person born into the world (until they're taught otherwise) comes from this light.

But I'll leave you here because I think we're off topic enough and not arguing correctly to begin with.  Enjoy the debate.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-10-11 14:20:20)

Without explaining something you haven't learned yet (through no fault of your own), I will just say that yes, religious people can fully KNOW things.  For example, I actually do KNOW that Jesus Christ existed, he lived to about 33 years of age, that he established his church on the earth, called and ordained apostles giving them priesthood power, that he gave up his OWN life (wasn't killed), returned back to life of his own will, and that he still lives today as a resurrected being.  Nobody convinced me of this, i didn't learn it from a book, and i wasn't "brainwashed" to believe it.  Likewise, it could never be forgotten or denied (the knowledge of those facts).  It's sad that you'll pass this off as me being psycho or brainwashed, but if you met me in person, knew anything about me, you'd know i'm far from brainwashed or psycho.  I"m actually quite a model citizen by anyone's standards.  But this is a forum, we're anonymous to each other, and this will be disregarded.  And I'll live. 

IRONCHEF wrote:

Without explaining something you haven't learned yet (through no fault of your own), I will just say that yes, religious people can fully KNOW things.  For example, I actually do KNOW that Jesus Christ existed, he lived to about 33 years of age, that he established his church on the earth, called and ordained apostles giving them priesthood power, that he gave up his OWN life (wasn't killed), returned back to life of his own will, and that he still lives today as a resurrected being.  Nobody convinced me of this, i didn't learn it from a book, and i wasn't "brainwashed" to believe it.  Likewise, it could never be forgotten or denied (the knowledge of those facts).  It's sad that you'll pass this off as me being psycho or brainwashed, but if you met me in person, knew anything about me, you'd know i'm far from brainwashed or psycho.  I"m actually quite a model citizen by anyone's standards.  But this is a forum, we're anonymous to each other, and this will be disregarded.  And I'll live. 

Even non-religious scholars would not doubt that the person Jesus Christ existed as a real person.  However, his resurection has never been proven, nor can you prove that he exists today as a resurected being, or that he is the son of God.  The fact is that religion lacks the evidence to prove any of the "supernatural" facts regarding him.  Chances are far more likely that he was a regular person that had a good head on his shoulders, and wanted people to treat other people with dignity, compassion, and respect because they are human beings, and not because of some unseen parent figure that would punish them otherwise.

I would also like to let you know that the Judas papers that are currently being studied would tend to indicate that Judas turned Jesus over to the Romans at Jesus own request.  It was needed to fulfill the prophecy.  Unfortunately, self fulfilling prophecies aren't really much of a prophecy, now are they?

IRONCHEF wrote:

Without explaining something you haven't learned yet (through no fault of your own), I will just say that yes, religious people can fully KNOW things.  For example, I actually do KNOW that Jesus Christ existed, he lived to about 33 years of age, that he established his church on the earth, called and ordained apostles giving them priesthood power, that he gave up his OWN life (wasn't killed), returned back to life of his own will, and that he still lives today as a resurrected being.  Nobody convinced me of this, i didn't learn it from a book, and i wasn't "brainwashed" to believe it.  Likewise, it could never be forgotten or denied (the knowledge of those facts).  It's sad that you'll pass this off as me being psycho or brainwashed, but if you met me in person, knew anything about me, you'd know i'm far from brainwashed or psycho.  I"m actually quite a model citizen by anyone's standards.  But this is a forum, we're anonymous to each other, and this will be disregarded.  And I'll live. 

I was never in any way suggesting that you are brainwashed. Although your lack of belief in many areas which are accepted fact, would seem to suggest otherwise. I'm not accusing you of being some sort of nutter. I'm just saying you've failled to draw the distinction between knowledge and belief.

I'm not passing anything off as you being brainwashed, I'm telling you that you don't know this stuff, you believe it, because there is not conclusive evidence of it. Unless of course god comes down and has a personal chat with you every once in a while (if you did claim that I really would start accusing you of being a nutter though).

I believe in the Big Bang. That doesn't mean I know it happened. I just believe it is based on the evidence I have seen.

There is no concrete proof of the existence of Jesus, let alone god. I think it is highly unlikely that there ever will be. His name certainly wasn't Jesus or Christ. Christ is a title and Jesus is thought to be a western corruption of his original name, if in fact he existed at all, which I believe he almost certainly did.

Bertster7 wrote:

I was never in any way suggesting that you are brainwashed. Although your lack of belief in many areas which are accepted fact, would seem to suggest otherwise. I'm not accusing you of being some sort of nutter. I'm just saying you've failled to draw the distinction between knowledge and belief.

Just curious, what are some of the lack of belief areas you're talking about?

Bertster7 wrote:

I'm not passing anything off as you being brainwashed, I'm telling you that you don't know this stuff, you believe it, because there is not conclusive evidence of it. Unless of course god comes down and has a personal chat with you every once in a while (if you did claim that I really would start accusing you of being a nutter though).

Belief is unproven attention towards something.  When you've proven something, it is no-longer just a belief but a reality.  I know, as much as I know anything, of the things I testified to above.  Again, I don't really want to go into how religious people gain knowledge of things they believe in, but if you would like to know this concept, I'd be happy to PM with you.  Because it is something real and it's probably why the majority of the world has had religious belief in God throughout the millenia of their existence.

Bertster7 wrote:

I believe in the Big Bang. That doesn't mean I know it happened. I just believe it is based on the evidence I have seen.

I believe in the Big Bang theory too.  I believe that this universe exploded into the life our scientists have put together.  I believe also that God perfomed that big bang, created life (not just human life), species, solar cycles, seasons, cell mitosis, and all the other little things our educated scientists are "discovering."  They obviously have tons more to discover before they get the whole picture.  A popular quote I'm attributed with (thanks to pollux's watchful eye) is calling these scientists vain and foolish men who think they know more than they do.  When they discount creationism because they haven't fit it in with their science, they call it delusion.  And it's understandable since even many creationism believers can't fit it in.  But if creationsim is understood, it explains that God decided to make our civilization starting with a pair of people put on this earth.  This earth was prepared from former material, and possibly material from other parts of what we call the galaxy or universe.  I dont' know, i wasn't there.  Creationism as recorded in the bible says that this civilization (children of God sent to this planet) only started about 5000/6000 years ago.  This can completely fit into science's evolutionary period.  And frankly, when it's all said and done, I'd like to also know the real history of other worlds and other creations (like our planet's dinosaurs and human species).

Bertster7 wrote:

There is no concrete proof of the existence of Jesus, let alone god. I think it is highly unlikely that there ever will be. His name certainly wasn't Jesus or Christ. Christ is a title and Jesus is thought to be a western corruption of his original name, if in fact he existed at all, which I believe he almost certainly did.

If there was, would it matter?  Is there debate about the invasion of Troy because we only have Homer's word for it?  Is there actual documentation of Achilles?  If not, alot of people in alot of online games are taking a big risk, eh? 

Jesus, as I understand it, is the english form of the greek name "Joshuah."  I think the Hebrew equivelent is "jehoshuah" according to a jewish attorney in my office who teaches and speaks hebrew."  Both are acceptable names in that time period.  And of course "Christ" is not his surname..that might have been "..of Nazareth" or something.  Christ is a title meaning "anointed one."  And it was prophesied that the son of god would be the anointed one when he came.


And speaking of prophesies...what gets me about people that say the bible is fiction, yet they hang on every word of nostradamus, don't understand that there's hundreds of prophetic statements in the bible that have all come true.  Some are symbolic, some are literal.  In the 7th century BC for example, the 10 tribes of israel were scattered or lost, just as prophesied by prophets centuries before it happened.  But such a thing is discounted because someone can't prove the writers of the books existed...  Anyway, it's baffling how people who haven't read it just pass it off as fiction.

IRONCHEF wrote:

And speaking of prophesies...what gets me about people that say the bible is fiction, yet they hang on every word of nostradamus, don't understand that there's hundreds of prophetic statements in the bible that have all come true.  Some are symbolic, some are literal.  In the 7th century BC for example, the 10 tribes of israel were scattered or lost, just as prophesied by prophets centuries before it happened.  But such a thing is discounted because someone can't prove the writers of the books existed...  Anyway, it's baffling how people who haven't read it just pass it off as fiction.

The longer one waits, the more likely a prediction is to come true in some loose form, statistically speaking. It's not impressive at all. And who do you know that believes Nostradamus?

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ask a christian why he believes the bible is the word of god, he'll tell you the convincing words his pastor told him.  But ask a real christian why he believes the bible is the work of god, and he'll testify to you in a way that will leave you no doubt.  It'll be a very personal reason independent of anyone or anything else. It may even shock or impress you.

I doubt that very much.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ask a christian why he believes the bible is the word of god, he'll tell you the convincing words his pastor told him.  But ask a real christian why he believes the bible is the work of god, and he'll testify to you in a way that will leave you no doubt.  It'll be a very personal reason independent of anyone or anything else. It may even shock or impress you.

I doubt that very much.

Well I'm saying that having seen it many times, and having done it countless times over 15 years.

So, why do you believe the bible is a work of god? (Not just a collection of myths and stories that have been edited and re-edited over 1000s of years)

what does jesus have to do with a woman's stink box?