You're completely out of it. Although I gave a broad overview of the circumstances, there are other posts in this thread that go into the specifics.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
Pure speculation that can never be provenFancy_Pollux wrote:
Quote of the day.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?For you specifically? See above.IRONCHEF wrote:
Also, WHAT HISTORY LESSON do we need to know? If you're soooo friggen smart about this, how about giving us the much needed history lesson we need? Honestly, for ONCE, put your money where your mouth is. I'm honestly and constructively waiting to see if you do have something to add other than insults. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something from you because I, unlike you, am humble enough to learn still.
In the context original post? Several things need to be taken into account to understand the justification of the US's use of nukes. First, although Japan, at this point, was losing the war (World War II), they would not surrender. This left the U.S. with two options. The first was a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in over a million deaths on both sides. The second was use of the nuclear bomb.
Woohoo! Thanks for the quick googling, but i think i misled you. I erroneously asked for you to provide how you knew NK sold "weapons" to others. I meant to challenge your assertion that NK sold "NUCLEAR" weapons or technology to others. Can you go back and google and find where NK sold NUCLEAR weapons or material to others? Thanks.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
IRONCHEF wrote:
Again, as usual, you have NOTHING to input on these boards as you are again just here to insult and not contribute a thing.
You are a textbook troll. You are asked sincerely to put up or shut up and you haven't the decency or maturity to put up, so now you get to stfu.http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=1546IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?
As early as 1989, North Korea sold Scud-B and C missiles to Iran. In 1993, Teheran received the delivery of the first North Korean medium-range ballistic missile, the Nodong 1. In Iran, this missile became known as the Shehab 3. With a range of 1350-1500 km, it can theoretically hit Israel with a payload of 1,200 kilograms of explosives. A few years later, Libya acquired missile components from North Korea, although there is no evidence that it possesses complete Nodongs.
What do you mean by I have nothing to input? You're supplying conjecture. I'm supplying fact.
Oh, and since you're obviously googling everything you attribute to be your own wisdom, I think you've again failed to prove you know anything at all. But then again, as you pointed out to me in PM when I honestly and maturely asked for you to show me where I was wrong, you said "it's just the internet man" like that disables the reality that we're actually two people communicating in a worldwide platform via this message board.
nevermind, you'll just ignore this, copy and paste a section or phrase of this text and try to counter my intelligent debate with some insult or otherwise insolent attack.
Oh, and at this point, I'm asking you to stop stalking and harrassing me on this message board. I'll also ask you to stop insulting me. Thank you.
Rational probability overrules your logic however. The initial attack would have been on the southernmost island, which would include isolating it from the mainland by bombing bridges and a blockade. Since the southernmost island gets most of its food from the main island, this would cause a massive famine. At least five million civillians would have been at risk...=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
Pure speculation that can never be provenFancy_Pollux wrote:
Quote of the day.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?For you specifically? See above.IRONCHEF wrote:
Also, WHAT HISTORY LESSON do we need to know? If you're soooo friggen smart about this, how about giving us the much needed history lesson we need? Honestly, for ONCE, put your money where your mouth is. I'm honestly and constructively waiting to see if you do have something to add other than insults. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something from you because I, unlike you, am humble enough to learn still.
In the context original post? Several things need to be taken into account to understand the justification of the US's use of nukes. First, although Japan, at this point, was losing the war (World War II), they would not surrender. This left the U.S. with two options. The first was a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in over a million deaths on both sides. The second was use of the nuclear bomb.
NK has never sold any kind of Nuke weapon to anyone..because they've just been succesful in Detonating one. But..they have sold goods to other countrys. By goods I mean Arms.IRONCHEF wrote:
Woohoo! Thanks for the quick googling, but i think i misled you. I erroneously asked for you to provide how you knew NK sold "weapons" to others. I meant to challenge your assertion that NK sold "NUCLEAR" weapons or technology to others. Can you go back and google and find where NK sold NUCLEAR weapons or material to others? Thanks.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
IRONCHEF wrote:
Again, as usual, you have NOTHING to input on these boards as you are again just here to insult and not contribute a thing.
You are a textbook troll. You are asked sincerely to put up or shut up and you haven't the decency or maturity to put up, so now you get to stfu.http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=1546IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?
As early as 1989, North Korea sold Scud-B and C missiles to Iran. In 1993, Teheran received the delivery of the first North Korean medium-range ballistic missile, the Nodong 1. In Iran, this missile became known as the Shehab 3. With a range of 1350-1500 km, it can theoretically hit Israel with a payload of 1,200 kilograms of explosives. A few years later, Libya acquired missile components from North Korea, although there is no evidence that it possesses complete Nodongs.
What do you mean by I have nothing to input? You're supplying conjecture. I'm supplying fact.
Oh, and since you're obviously googling everything you attribute to be your own wisdom, I think you've again failed to prove you know anything at all. But then again, as you pointed out to me in PM when I honestly and maturely asked for you to show me where I was wrong, you said "it's just the internet man" like that disables the reality that we're actually two people communicating in a worldwide platform via this message board.
nevermind, you'll just ignore this, copy and paste a section or phrase of this text and try to counter my intelligent debate with some insult or otherwise insolent attack.
Oh, and at this point, I'm asking you to stop stalking and harrassing me on this message board. I'll also ask you to stop insulting me. Thank you.
Pure speculation that can never be proven. Except for the fact that as the Allies got closer to Japan the fanaticism of the Japanese troops grew. Casualties kept getting higher and higher as they got closer.
Are you serious? I said that when North Korea's nuclear technology is weaponized, it is quite possible that they will sell it to terrorists, considering their road map with dealing arms. How can you even consider this an argument? North Korea JUST announced that they have conducted a nuclear test. Of course they are going to be no sources showing that they've sold nuclear weapons already, especially considering that their nuclear technology has not yet been weaponized in a deliverable form yet! The whole idea is to stop them before they do. This is why you see all this international criticism.IRONCHEF wrote:
Woohoo! Thanks for the quick googling, but i think i misled you. I erroneously asked for you to provide how you knew NK sold "weapons" to others. I meant to challenge your assertion that NK sold "NUCLEAR" weapons or technology to others. Can you go back and google and find where NK sold NUCLEAR weapons or material to others? Thanks.
Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-10-11 11:10:36)
Nice, way to edit your posts to save your ass. But I should have waited knowing you'd do that anyway.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Quote of the day.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?For you specifically? See above.IRONCHEF wrote:
Also, WHAT HISTORY LESSON do we need to know? If you're soooo friggen smart about this, how about giving us the much needed history lesson we need? Honestly, for ONCE, put your money where your mouth is. I'm honestly and constructively waiting to see if you do have something to add other than insults. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something from you because I, unlike you, am humble enough to learn still.
In the context original post? Several things need to be taken into account to understand the justification of the US's use of nukes. First, although Japan, at this point, was losing the war (World War II), they would not surrender. This left the U.S. with two options. The first was a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in over a million deaths on both sides. The second was use of the nuclear bomb.
So now, for the history lesson esteban needed... Oh, you wanted to insult him because his 100,000 estimate was off by a few hundred thousand? Ok, yes, he could have googled that like you do to learn the count. Damn.
Esteban's estimates were off by millions. Read the other citations regarding this in the thread, I do not need to repeat them. Also, what do you mean by "way to edit your posts to save your ass"? I editted my post to address your second quote, so I wouldn't have to double post. You can even ask a moderator, since they can view the edit history of a post. You're really beginning to make a fool out of yourself, IRONCHEF.IRONCHEF wrote:
Nice, way to edit your posts to save your ass. But I should have waited knowing you'd do that anyway.Fancy_Pollux wrote:
Quote of the day.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?For you specifically? See above.IRONCHEF wrote:
Also, WHAT HISTORY LESSON do we need to know? If you're soooo friggen smart about this, how about giving us the much needed history lesson we need? Honestly, for ONCE, put your money where your mouth is. I'm honestly and constructively waiting to see if you do have something to add other than insults. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something from you because I, unlike you, am humble enough to learn still.
In the context original post? Several things need to be taken into account to understand the justification of the US's use of nukes. First, although Japan, at this point, was losing the war (World War II), they would not surrender. This left the U.S. with two options. The first was a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in over a million deaths on both sides. The second was use of the nuclear bomb.
So now, for the history lesson esteban needed... Oh, you wanted to insult him because his 100,000 estimate was off by a few hundred thousand? Ok, yes, he could have googled that like you do to learn the count. Damn.
And hey, for the matter of potentially selling nuclear weaponry to potential enemies of the US...
Have we not sold weaponry to probably the most aggressive country on the planet (other than us) being Israel? It is widely believed theyhave nukes (as early as the 60's), and they blatantly destroy palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and probably jordanians with the technology and arms we sell them. So who is the hypocrit saying NK can't have nukes or sell them to iranians, al qaeda, or other enemies of our country?
This thread is about hypocracy. I have already said i don't want anyone to have nukes, but i'm being a debater and debating hypocracy but too many of you can't control yourselves and debate the hypocracy of telling NK they can't have nukes. And now pollux thinks everyone who disaagrees with him is intelligent, lacks sense of history, and has no grasp on reality when all he had to do was debate hypocracy. But then trolls will do what they must do.
Have we not sold weaponry to probably the most aggressive country on the planet (other than us) being Israel? It is widely believed theyhave nukes (as early as the 60's), and they blatantly destroy palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and probably jordanians with the technology and arms we sell them. So who is the hypocrit saying NK can't have nukes or sell them to iranians, al qaeda, or other enemies of our country?
This thread is about hypocracy. I have already said i don't want anyone to have nukes, but i'm being a debater and debating hypocracy but too many of you can't control yourselves and debate the hypocracy of telling NK they can't have nukes. And now pollux thinks everyone who disaagrees with him is intelligent, lacks sense of history, and has no grasp on reality when all he had to do was debate hypocracy. But then trolls will do what they must do.
I'm beginning to make a fool of myself? I thought I was long thought of as a fool..by you. What exactly do you contribute to the threads you post in when you're not stalking and harrassing me?
sorry all for the hijack. i will leave this thread after this post. it's been jacked up beyond repair.
sorry all for the hijack. i will leave this thread after this post. it's been jacked up beyond repair.
No.IRONCHEF wrote:
And hey, for the matter of potentially selling nuclear weaponry to potential enemies of the US...
Have we not sold weaponry to probably the most aggressive country on the planet (other than us) being Israel? It is widely believed theyhave nukes (as early as the 60's), and they blatantly destroy palestinians, lebanese, syrians, and probably jordanians with the technology and arms we sell them. So who is the hypocrit saying NK can't have nukes or sell them to iranians, al qaeda, or other enemies of our country?
This thread is about hypocracy. I have already said i don't want anyone to have nukes, but i'm being a debater and debating hypocracy but too many of you can't control yourselves and debate the hypocracy of telling NK they can't have nukes. And now pollux thinks everyone who disaagrees with him is intelligent, lacks sense of history, and has no grasp on reality when all he had to do was debate hypocracy. But then trolls will do what they must do.
Not potential enemys of the US, the rest of the WORLD. there are more places then Disney land you know to go on holiday, try it.
Sorry about that. But NK having nukes is dangerous for everyone. South Korea must be feeling a bit down in the dumps, and the neighbouring countrys must be a bit worryed. Look if you want to join the Nuculer club..you have to abide by the rules, and NK isnt giving them a damn.
Last edited by samhornby (2006-10-11 11:23:56)
IRONCHEF, why are you bringing Israel into this? First you accuse me of editing my post "to save my ass" and now this. Stop changing the subject and focus on the debate at hand. If you go back and read every reply to this thread, you will clearly see that your argument is laughable and that people are laughing at you for it (they are also laughing at your comments in your Bush-bashing thread). You've been proven wrong at every point you've tried to make (look at the post above this one, for example). You question facts as a result of your own ignorance. Once again, learn something before you post.
Last edited by Fancy_Pollux (2006-10-11 11:25:26)
you just lied about 8 times. you deserve no response. and yes, israel is perfectly inline with this topic...if you read it for what it was (an illustration of hypocracy) instead of finding someway to insult me, you'd have picked up on it.
sorry all for this, but the coward pollux isn't man enough to take it to PMs.
sorry all for this, but the coward pollux isn't man enough to take it to PMs.
Ahh the truth comes out. It's actually about Israel.
Again, how is NK having nukes more dangerous than the US having nukes? The only precedence on this topic is us using nukes (granted it was for a good cause being the lesser of evils) and we're the ones giving the most aggressive nation nukes (israel) and "allowing" pakistan and india to have nukes. India could nuke pakistan any minute, pakistan's musharaf could be overthrown any minute by a minimal effort and his nukes compromised. All we have are threats from a little man that wears pumps and oppresses his people. he's got a badass military and for a good reason. I'm not complimenting kim jong il, but he has every right to defend his corrupt country just as we have to defend ours. Is he a madman? Our media thinks so. I've not met him so i can't say.samhornby wrote:
But NK having nukes is dangerous for everyone. South Korea must be feeling a bit down in the dumps, and the neighbouring countrys must be a bit worryed. Look if you want to join the Nuculer club..you have to abide by the rules, and NK isnt giving them a damn.
The korean war ended with a cease fire. No treaty, no promise, no nothing. In reality, we're still at war with them (though congress never declared so). Today, NK soldiers along the DMZ are itching for war and their president has something (probably hiroshima sized bombs...or smaller..who knows) and he wants to use them as he says to fight back against US aggression towards his nation. Will you or I really know any of the true reasons for any of this? Probably not given our media. Do we know that our country is hyopcritical in who they pick and chose to have nukes? Yes.
How is nk having nukes more dangerous than the US?IRONCHEF wrote:
Again, how is NK having nukes more dangerous than the US having nukes? The only precedence on this topic is us using nukes (granted it was for a good cause being the lesser of evils) and we're the ones giving the most aggressive nation nukes (israel) and "allowing" pakistan and india to have nukes. India could nuke pakistan any minute, pakistan's musharaf could be overthrown any minute by a minimal effort and his nukes compromised. All we have are threats from a little man that wears pumps and oppresses his people. he's got a badass military and for a good reason. I'm not complimenting kim jong il, but he has every right to defend his corrupt country just as we have to defend ours. Is he a madman? Our media thinks so. I've not met him so i can't say.samhornby wrote:
But NK having nukes is dangerous for everyone. South Korea must be feeling a bit down in the dumps, and the neighbouring countrys must be a bit worryed. Look if you want to join the Nuculer club..you have to abide by the rules, and NK isnt giving them a damn.
The korean war ended with a cease fire. No treaty, no promise, no nothing. In reality, we're still at war with them (though congress never declared so). Today, NK soldiers along the DMZ are itching for war and their president has something (probably hiroshima sized bombs...or smaller..who knows) and he wants to use them as he says to fight back against US aggression towards his nation. Will you or I really know any of the true reasons for any of this? Probably not given our media. Do we know that our country is hyopcritical in who they pick and chose to have nukes? Yes.
Are you a moron?
When was the last time the head of the US fed his population poisoned cabages..let them starve to death and ran a communist state?
Yes, I'm a moron because i've got NO proof that he fed his population poisoned cabbages. Would you care to document that for me? I've also heard he runs soviet era goulags in the north part of his country and there's 2 million prisoners in it. If it's true, does that mean he can't have nukes? If it isn't true, does he then get to have nukes? My point is, Who's to say who can and can't have nukes? And is US propaganda the culprit for creating so many people hating this country? Yep.samhornby wrote:
How is nk having nukes more dangerous than the US?
Are you a moron?
When was the last time the head of the US fed his population poisoned cabages..let them starve to death and ran a communist state?
I've played Lineage for 5 years. it's the most played game in the world (2 milion more than WOW) so that means most of south korean kids play this game more than anything else. So I've known many south korean kids and have run game message boards and this topic has come up plenty. But not once have they corroborated US claims of Kim Jong Il's psychotic behavior or his overly aggressive tendancies towards other nations. They all hate him and think communism sucks and that his people need to be fed, but none of the lunacy that comes from us propaganda came out.
But hey, i don't know shit, right? I'm ignorant because i don't believe US media and the "majority" of Americans....zzzz
But hey, i don't know shit, right? I'm ignorant because i don't believe US media and the "majority" of Americans....zzzz
No one said that.
Look, ive got the newspaper downstairs..il scan it in if you really want me to?
Also have you not seen the latest james bond?? [/sarcasm]
No one said that.
Look, ive got the newspaper downstairs..il scan it in if you really want me to?
Also have you not seen the latest james bond?? [/sarcasm]
I also play lineage. But heres a question for you... Do u have any NORTH KOREAN friends, because well... they cant have computers and shit in n.korea? And theres been a lot of refugees from north korea that have corroborated the US stories, and have shown proof of the horrible things that they do there.IRONCHEF wrote:
Yes, I'm a moron because i've got NO proof that he fed his population poisoned cabbages. Would you care to document that for me? I've also heard he runs soviet era goulags in the north part of his country and there's 2 million prisoners in it. If it's true, does that mean he can't have nukes? If it isn't true, does he then get to have nukes? My point is, Who's to say who can and can't have nukes? And is US propaganda the culprit for creating so many people hating this country? Yep.samhornby wrote:
How is nk having nukes more dangerous than the US?
Are you a moron?
When was the last time the head of the US fed his population poisoned cabages..let them starve to death and ran a communist state?
I've played Lineage for 5 years. it's the most played game in the world (2 milion more than WOW) so that means most of south korean kids play this game more than anything else. So I've known many south korean kids and have run game message boards and this topic has come up plenty. But not once have they corroborated US claims of Kim Jong Il's psychotic behavior or his overly aggressive tendancies towards other nations. They all hate him and think communism sucks and that his people need to be fed, but none of the lunacy that comes from us propaganda came out.
But hey, i don't know shit, right? I'm ignorant because i don't believe US media and the "majority" of Americans....zzzz
I was using my south korean friends as a non-us source of information on their neighbor, and i hadn't ever seen refugees corroborate the us media frenzy against kim jong il. also, the timing of such stories (aka, "axis of evil") was impeccable.
did you play us servers or korean servers? i also had a lands of aden account.
did you play us servers or korean servers? i also had a lands of aden account.
QFTFancy_Pollux wrote:
Except North Korea sells weapons to terrorists. And, once their nuclear technology becomes weaponized, it is quite possible that it, too, will be sold to terrorists, who will not hesitate to use them. Additioanally, it is also a possibility that this will trigger a nuclear arms race in the region. I've seen you post a lot of stupid things on this forum, IRONCHEF, but here you are actually trying to defended North Korea's stance? Learn something before you speak.IRONCHEF wrote:
No, you're right. This nuclear hypocracy knows no bounds. Who determines who is the good guys? Has north korea attacked other countries lately? Is it responding to threats of attacks by hastening it's nuclear arsenal (possibly even bluffing out of fear)? On the other hand, has England attacked other countries?
QFE
So basically, everyone should have a nuke? At the basic level, regardless of whether the US has and other's don't...if everyone has a nuke is this good for the world?
Chef, whether NK felt threatened enough to get a nuke, doesn't mean what they did is good for the world over all.
Everyone can have a nuke if they want, but it also means you get sanctioned. Hopefully it stops at that.
Chef, whether NK felt threatened enough to get a nuke, doesn't mean what they did is good for the world over all.
Everyone can have a nuke if they want, but it also means you get sanctioned. Hopefully it stops at that.
theres been interviews with ex-military members from n.korea that have proof that they exterminate families for no reason, and shown other disgusting things that they do. recently there has also been many leaked video tapes from n.korea showing more of this shit.IRONCHEF wrote:
I was using my south korean friends as a non-us source of information on their neighbor, and i hadn't ever seen refugees corroborate the us media frenzy against kim jong il. also, the timing of such stories (aka, "axis of evil") was impeccable.
And OH YEAH
Further pressure will be countered with physical retaliation, the North’s Foreign Ministry warned in a statement carried by the official Korean Central News Agency.
“If the U.S. keeps pestering us and increases pressure, we will regard it as a declaration of war and will take a series of physical corresponding measures,” the statement said, without specifying what those measures could be.
South Korea said it was making sure its troops were prepared for atomic warfare, and Japan imposed new economic sanctions to hit the economic lifeline of the communist nation’s 1 million-member military, the world’s fifth-largest.
NOW thats really peacefull, they definately deserve a right to have nukes. NOT A SINGLE NUCLEAR POWER TODAY WOULD EVEN CONSIDER DROPPING ANOTHER BOMB. but this crazy fucking north korean dictator WILL NOT HESITATE.
Ok, let's get something straight. I'm not justifying what kim jong is doing to his people. I'm saying I don't know what he's done, though I'm sure it's at least as bad as what saddam has done. So great, he's an evil friggne dictator. My question is "WHO" has the right to say who can and can't have nukes?
If we were friendly with NK, would we care? damn straight we WOULDN"T care..just like india and pakistan. but because we're hypocritical in our policies, we do care. My challenge is with how we pick and choose when the answer is to be friendly. Is there not a popular quote saying you catch more flies with honey? Is this little power hungry madman not easily dissuaded with riches, power, and responsibility? We'll never know because we're too scared of his bluff and we have no leaders with the capacity to evolve civilization with diplomacy. Refusing not to talk to NK is not "taking time to let dipolmacy" take form. Same shit with Iran when we would not debate their president..out of principle.
If we were friendly with NK, would we care? damn straight we WOULDN"T care..just like india and pakistan. but because we're hypocritical in our policies, we do care. My challenge is with how we pick and choose when the answer is to be friendly. Is there not a popular quote saying you catch more flies with honey? Is this little power hungry madman not easily dissuaded with riches, power, and responsibility? We'll never know because we're too scared of his bluff and we have no leaders with the capacity to evolve civilization with diplomacy. Refusing not to talk to NK is not "taking time to let dipolmacy" take form. Same shit with Iran when we would not debate their president..out of principle.
Here's some food for thought.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
Pure speculation that can never be provenFancy_Pollux wrote:
Quote of the day.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't read any articles lately saying that North Korea actually sold weapons or technology to anyone. Did you read that or something? or do you also not know what you're talking about?For you specifically? See above.IRONCHEF wrote:
Also, WHAT HISTORY LESSON do we need to know? If you're soooo friggen smart about this, how about giving us the much needed history lesson we need? Honestly, for ONCE, put your money where your mouth is. I'm honestly and constructively waiting to see if you do have something to add other than insults. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something from you because I, unlike you, am humble enough to learn still.
In the context original post? Several things need to be taken into account to understand the justification of the US's use of nukes. First, although Japan, at this point, was losing the war (World War II), they would not surrender. This left the U.S. with two options. The first was a land invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in over a million deaths on both sides. The second was use of the nuclear bomb.
Invasion of Japan (estimates for operation not taken)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall
Casualty estimates: 1.7 to 4 Million US, 5 to 10 Million Japanese
Dropping the A-bombs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom … d_Nagasaki
Casualties: about 214,000 Japanese
So best case, 6.7 Million dead or 31 times the death toll for dropping the bomb.
In other words, yes it's speculation, but a conservative estimate = 31 times the number killed.
How much more conservative would you like to go?