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2006-10-06 13:18:39
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6833|SE London

ncc6206 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

B) Palestine has been, until very recently, one of THE MOST SECULAR arabic 'nations' in the middle east. A symptom of them coming together for a political goal rather than a religious one. See the infighting amongst the Palestinians alone for evidence of how many of them abhorr hardline islamic elements. Women are very highly respected there compared against other arabic nations. They have even had top ranking politicians who were female.
Hamas are a religious organisation. They have been trying to promote Islam throughout Palestine. I remember hearing about Hamas paying for mass Islamic weddings for lots of Palestinians, many of whom were not religious.

Palestine is one of the least Islamic countries in the middle east. The conflict is not about religion - it is about getting back land and freedom from oppression on one hand and about keeping/gaining land and freedom from terrorism on the other.

Both sides are in the wrong, but Israel was in the wrong first and should be responsible enough to put an end to all this, which they are in a position to do - the Palestinian government are not.
You are confused sir.  It is about religion. Yes they want their land back but at the cost of the eradication of Isreal. They refuse to acknowledge its existance right or wrong.  Hamas supports violence against Isreal. Nuff.
Your evidence for that is?

The religious demographics for the region would suggest otherwise. Hamas are a religious organisation, but I don't believe the PLO are. That is the general opinion throughout much of the middle east, but in Palestine I'm pretty sure they'd be quite happy to get back all the land that is legally theirs (by that I mean the land laid out in the 1947 partition plan, because technically none of the land legally belongs to Israel).
2006-10-06 13:19:16
DaReJa
BF2s US Server Admin
+257|6878|Los Angeles, California, US.

Kung Jew wrote:

The title of this topic is incorrect.

That is all.

KJ
Battlelog: DaReJa
MyBFi/BF3i Admin

AKA DanielRJ
GameSurge IRC Network, Support Agent and Staff
Phuzion IRC Network, Support Director and Operator
2006-10-06 13:20:12
jonsimon
Member
+224|6747

DaReJa wrote:

Kung Jew wrote:

The title of this topic is incorrect.

That is all.

KJ
Yeah, it should say Palestinian land.
2006-10-06 13:34:25
ncc6206
=BIG= BAD AND UGLY
+36|6731
I do not see how Palestine claims ownership of the land.  Prior to the partion plan
"Regarding the Arab ownership, the MidEast Web states "At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was "crown lands" belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency." [1] The precise amount of land owned by local Arabs and the state has been subject to considerable dispute as the Ottoman Empire did not maintain an accurate land registration system and many land claims consisted of little more than contracts between private parties that may or may not have been based on actual possession.

Much of the Jewish population, especially in rural areas, lived on land leased from Arab owners."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

The PLO wants their land back so if the Ottoman empire was to be rebuilt would they have first rights?
2006-10-06 13:42:40
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6833|SE London

ncc6206 wrote:

I do not see how Palestine claims ownership of the land.  Prior to the partion plan
"Regarding the Arab ownership, the MidEast Web states "At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was "crown lands" belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency." [1] The precise amount of land owned by local Arabs and the state has been subject to considerable dispute as the Ottoman Empire did not maintain an accurate land registration system and many land claims consisted of little more than contracts between private parties that may or may not have been based on actual possession.

Much of the Jewish population, especially in rural areas, lived on land leased from Arab owners."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

The PLO wants their land back so if the Ottoman empire was to be rebuilt would they have first rights?
You don't see how the Palestinians claim ownership of the land?

Because it was theirs.

League of Nations Mandate Commission wrote:

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity
Sounds like Palestine was a state. The British NEVER authorised the creation of a Jewish state, only controlled immigration, which was abused. The British refused to participate in the partition plan, which they regarded as unfair on the Palestinians.

League of Nations wrote:

The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be . . . in any way placed under the control of the Government of any foreign Power
Source

It was not within the British governments power to grant the Jewish agency any degree of control in the running of Palestine. All the Balfour declaration did was to authorise immigration to Palestine by Jewish settlers, who then went about pursuing their own Zionist goals through acts of terrorism, such as the King David hotel bombing.

The King-Crane Commission Report, of 1919 wrote:

"A national home for the Jewish people" is not equivalent to making Palestine into a Jewish State; nor can the erection of such a Jewish State be accomplished without the gravest trespass upon the "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conference with Jewish representatives, that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine by various forms of purchase.
Source
The King Crane Commission were a Pro-Zionist American commission who recognised that the Balfour declaration was being misused and that Palestinans were being driven from their homes by an economic war of attrition.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-10-06 14:03:30)

2006-10-06 13:47:11
ncc6206
=BIG= BAD AND UGLY
+36|6731
Berster you make a well thought out arguement for Palestine. I just wish I could share your view point.
Thank you for the insite.  I only hope that there will be peace soon and the blood shed will end.  This dispute has been going on since biblical time and it may be well after our generation that it will be resolved.  Peace and thanks for the discussion. 
2006-10-06 13:50:14
bogo24dk
Member
+26|6758

ncc6206 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

B) Palestine has been, until very recently, one of THE MOST SECULAR arabic 'nations' in the middle east. A symptom of them coming together for a political goal rather than a religious one. See the infighting amongst the Palestinians alone for evidence of how many of them abhorr hardline islamic elements. Women are very highly respected there compared against other arabic nations. They have even had top ranking politicians who were female.
Hamas are a religious organisation. They have been trying to promote Islam throughout Palestine. I remember hearing about Hamas paying for mass Islamic weddings for lots of Palestinians, many of whom were not religious.

Palestine is one of the least Islamic countries in the middle east. The conflict is not about religion - it is about getting back land and freedom from oppression on one hand and about keeping/gaining land and freedom from terrorism on the other.

Both sides are in the wrong, but Israel was in the wrong first and should be responsible enough to put an end to all this, which they are in a position to do - the Palestinian government are not.
You are confused sir.  It is about religion. Yes they want their land back but at the cost of the eradication of Isreal. They refuse to acknowledge its existance right or wrong.  Hamas supports violence against Isreal. Nuff.
Ohhh my friend. It's the other way around. Threat's from the Arabs are plenty, but when it comes to making good on those threats , Israel is there to respond.
You have pulled out of Gaza just to make it like the Nazi did in ww2 "Polish/Jewish ghetto".
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 … 49,00.html

The snatching of land on the west bank has increased.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1005/p01s01-wome.html

The killing of civilians are staggering and getting higher every day. And yet the overwhelming of the Israelis approve of this.
The Palestinians want 22% of their land back, and yet that is to much. I think the majority of Israelis hope that the more time will go by the more land you will take from the Palestinians. And at the end there will not be any more to land snatch.
2006-10-06 14:13:33
ncc6206
=BIG= BAD AND UGLY
+36|6731
And who exactly kidnapped the Jewish servicemen?  What kind of reaction did you expect?  The PLO has taken the right steps to legitimize their organization and must stop its terroristic ways before it can be accepted as a true Palestinian state.  Right now they are a bankrupt without international help from European countries because they refuse to work within diplomatic channels.  I am not attempting to change anybodies mind here.  I am stating another view point contrary to what you may think bogo24dk.  If you chose violence to achieve your goal do not expect the victim not to lash back.
2006-10-06 14:25:45
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6833|SE London

ncc6206 wrote:

And who exactly kidnapped the Jewish servicemen?  What kind of reaction did you expect?  The PLO has taken the right steps to legitimize their organization and must stop its terroristic ways before it can be accepted as a true Palestinian state.  Right now they are a bankrupt without international help from European countries because they refuse to work within diplomatic channels.  I am not attempting to change anybodies mind here.  I am stating another view point contrary to what you may think bogo24dk.  If you chose violence to achieve your goal do not expect the victim not to lash back.
Yet Israel was declared a state while much of the Zionist movement either endorsed terrorism or actively participated in it. One of the leaders of the Zionist terror group Irgun later became Israeli Prime Minister. Many of the Knesset were ex-terrorists.

Ever heard of Irgun, Lehi etc.

If you chose violence to achieve your goal do not expect the victim not to lash back
That's what the Palestinians are doing, lashing back at an illegally formed government that stole their land. The least the state of Israel could do is return all the land the Palestinians are entitled to under the UN partition plan.
2006-10-06 14:26:46
bogo24dk
Member
+26|6758

ncc6206 wrote:

And who exactly kidnapped the Jewish servicemen?  What kind of reaction did you expect?  The PLO has taken the right steps to legitimize their organization and must stop its terroristic ways before it can be accepted as a true Palestinian state.  Right now they are a bankrupt without international help from European countries because they refuse to work within diplomatic channels.  I am not attempting to change anybodies mind here.  I am stating another view point contrary to what you may think bogo24dk.  If you chose violence to achieve your goal do not expect the victim not to lash back.
Have you looked lately how many Palestinians are kidnapped, imprisoned without a trial or any reason at all.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Administ … Detention/
http://www.btselem.org/english/Administ … istics.asp
Even kids are in detained. And  most of the Palestinian who has been in the IDF jails have said that they where tortured: http://www.btselem.org/English/Photo_Ar … %25,%25%27
1 Israeli soldier being kidnapped those not give the moral right to punish 3 mill Palestinians.
2006-10-06 14:33:12
ncc6206
=BIG= BAD AND UGLY
+36|6731
The reason kids are detained: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … 32404.html
Both sides are using tactics that are irreprehensible.  I do not have the solution.  I only want to state that until Israel is secure in its borders, I will come to its defense in the forum.  I understand that both of you will continue to defend the plight of the Palestinians.  Until the next thread. So long and pray for peace for both sides.
2006-10-06 14:34:59
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6936|United States of America
Both Israel and Palestine need a time-out and some face time with the corner.
2006-10-06 14:37:54
bogo24dk
Member
+26|6758

ncc6206 wrote:

The reason kids are detained: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … 32404.html
Both sides are using tactics that are irreprehensible.  I do not have the solution.  I only want to state that until Israel is secure in its borders, I will come to its defense in the forum.  I understand that both of you will continue to defend the plight of the Palestinians.  Until the next thread. So long and pray for peace for both sides.
This can be also justified : http://www.btselem.org/English/Publicat … Minors.asp

Right ?
2006-10-06 14:40:07
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6936|United States of America

bogo24dk wrote:

ncc6206 wrote:

The reason kids are detained: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … 32404.html
Both sides are using tactics that are irreprehensible.  I do not have the solution.  I only want to state that until Israel is secure in its borders, I will come to its defense in the forum.  I understand that both of you will continue to defend the plight of the Palestinians.  Until the next thread. So long and pray for peace for both sides.
This can be also justified : http://www.btselem.org/English/Publicat … Minors.asp

Right ?
HAHA.
"Pushing the minor's head into the toilet bowl and flushing the toilet" - They got swirlied
With the exception of the beatings, nothing seems that bad. Getting cursed at, water...easily dealt with.
2006-10-06 14:41:56
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6961|Wilmington, DE, US
Citing the Jewish Virtual Library for information on the Palestinians FTL
2006-10-06 14:47:41
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6833|SE London

DesertFox423 wrote:

Both Israel and Palestine need a time-out and some face time with the corner.
You are very right.

The Israelis were to blame to start off with but the Palestinian response, while understandable, is totally unacceptable. Targeting civilians is ALWAYS WRONG, even for brutally oppressed nations.

The UN (not the US, who are horrendously biased in this particular matter) need to come up with a definitive peace plan that involves a lot of land being returned to the Palestinians and for SEVERE consequences for Palestine if there are any further terror attacks against Israel. There would need to be a peacekeeping force in place for the beginning of such an operation.

The only problem with such a plan is that the Israelis wouldn't accept it, the US wouldn't help enforce it (and would veto such a suggestion at the UN) and so it wouldn't happen. The only way it could happen would be through major restructuring of the UN, removing veto power and possibly the establishment of a standing international army. The other solution involves magical peace pixies and is even less likely.....
2006-10-06 14:51:37
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6794|Texas - Bigger than France
I found this today searching for something else, from Wiki:

In 1944, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the senior Islamic religious authority of the Palestinian Arabs and close ally of Adolf Hitler, sponsored an unsuccessful chemical warfare assault on the Jewish community in Palestine. Five parachutists were supplied with maps of Tel Aviv, canisters of a German–manufactured "fine white powder," and instructions from the Mufti to dump chemicals into the Tel Aviv water system. District police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi later recalled, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers."
2006-10-06 15:59:58
bogo24dk
Member
+26|6758
Hmmmm......

Contact with Nazi authorities

In 1940 and 1941, before the Wannsee Conference in 1942, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi did not yet reveal all its power and that they're capable of organizing a whole range of anti British operations. Assuming that the destruction of Britain is the top objective of the Germans, the organization offers cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: (1) full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions are demanded: (1) Full recognition in an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) In the same level of importance and in practice - allowing all the Jews wishing so, or about to leave anyway from their place in Europe, from their will or from government injunctions, to all these, with no restrictions on the numbers, the ability to migrate to Palestine. For this purpose there is a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar. Von Hentig asked for something in writing, and was given a memorandum in German [9]. Lehi commanders never said whether the exact wording was official or who affirmed the exact version later reported. According to the source of Yisraeli, the letter from Lehi repeated the offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian, basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[10]".[11] Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also without apparent success.
,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28gr … uthorities
2006-10-06 16:09:43
13rin
Member
+977|6731

Ikarti wrote:

Citing the Jewish Virtual Library for information on the Palestinians FTL
Yea. We all know how you don't trust those evil jews.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2006-10-06 16:13:14
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6961|Wilmington, DE, US

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

Citing the Jewish Virtual Library for information on the Palestinians FTL
Yea. We all know how you don't trust those evil jews.
Way to make it something it's not. It has an extremely Zionist slant. Asking them about Palestinians is like asking Osama bin Laden what he thinks of Americans.

 

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