Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6805|United States of America

jonsimon wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

OK, tell me what rights have been taken away from me????  What am I doing now that I will no longer be able to do because of this bill????????  Exactly, now STFU you stupid ASSHAT.
You personally? Perhaps none. But people in general? Right to trial, right to free speech, miranda rights, and persuit of happiness.

Remember, Hitler started with the communists and moved slowly from there.
Pretty scary shit huh. I'm sure my friends and relatives will all be affected.  Thanks for looking out for us. 

First you protected us from the Draft, now you'll protect us from this.  Gee, thanks.  Go Hemp.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6645

Major_Spittle wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

OK, tell me what rights have been taken away from me????  What am I doing now that I will no longer be able to do because of this bill????????  Exactly, now STFU you stupid ASSHAT.
You personally? Perhaps none. But people in general? Right to trial, right to free speech, miranda rights, and persuit of happiness.

Remember, Hitler started with the communists and moved slowly from there.
Pretty scary shit huh. I'm sure my friends and relatives will all be affected.  Thanks for looking out for us. 

First you protected us from the Draft, now you'll protect us from this.  Gee, thanks.  Go Hemp.
'You'? Who is 'you'? I wouldn't protect your dumb ass from anything.
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6805|United States of America

jonsimon wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

You personally? Perhaps none. But people in general? Right to trial, right to free speech, miranda rights, and persuit of happiness.

Remember, Hitler started with the communists and moved slowly from there.
Pretty scary shit huh. I'm sure my friends and relatives will all be affected.  Thanks for looking out for us. 

First you protected us from the Draft, now you'll protect us from this.  Gee, thanks.  Go Hemp.
'You'? Who is 'you'? I wouldn't protect your dumb ass from anything.
Great, now I'm sure to be Drafted into the military or imprisoned because of this new bill. 

Please help me mister liberal protector man.

jonsimon wrote:

Soda is more deadly than pot.
ftw

Last edited by Major_Spittle (2006-09-30 16:18:52)

Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6698|San Diego, CA, USA
Its funny...these people call this Torture.  As has been noted, we don't do anything like Saddam or the Japanese or the Veitnamese did (break bones, cut you, etc...).



What would you do if someone you caught may know information that could save your family's life?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6645

Harmor wrote:

Its funny...these people call this Torture.  As has been noted, we don't do anything like Saddam or the Japanese or the Veitnamese did (break bones, cut you, etc...).



What would you do if someone you caught may know information that could save your family's life?
Pain and suffering is pain and suffering. It doesn't fucking matter you sick freak.

I would protect my family if their lives were in danger. I wouldn't become some inhuman bastard.

If our torture is so mild why don't you submit yourself to it for a week. You won't last.
AAFCptKabbom
Member
+127|6808|WPB, FL. USA

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

They're finally coming for TheShit_Builder and all of his paranoid forum terrorists 
Ah, such intellectual rigor and wit - always to be expected from my old pal Kabbom.

So Kabbom, do you have any thoughts or comments on the matter at hand? Or just want to lay down some ad hominem sniping fire?
I'll go with "ad hominem" myself {I know you either pirated that term or been losing sleep waiting to use it}
I only snipe in the game and I'm pretty much out in the open in the forums - for you "open" meaning "open minded".

And "Yes", I have thoughts on the matter however, we'll end up going back to beating the rock against the head or pounding the head against the rock.  It seems that you love to bait people rather than debate people. We just don't agree with each other and thats cool with me.  I actually get a kick out of your opinion.

I will at least be fair and make a comment; I have no problem with the detainee bill. 
IMHO tyranny and torture is what Sadam was doing prior to him getting a world wide high hard one up the arse.  Considering how he is being treated attests to our values.  Now, considering you chose the thread title of "Tyranny" and Torture", it seems you had already made up your mind - didn't we! 

I feel, based on the terrorist making up their own rules, that we {the world} need to adapt to our enemy to be able to protect innocent people {note I said "adapt" and not "be like"}.  Also, history has already proven that if you ignore the terrorist that they do not go away - not to disagree with you just a reality check.  I do not agree with extremest on either side of this issue - there is and has to be an intelligent approach to this very real and serious threat to humanity and I think that the President and the Senate have taken the appropriate action - I can sleep at night with this bill and I know people like you will hold their feet to the fire if they abuse it and that's the beauty of America.

Nite-nite,
Kaboom.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6699|Southeastern USA

Ikarti wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

its not quite so random as the popular media has led you to believe, you don't go to gitmo without good reason, however, technically the constitution and the bill of rights only apply to american citizens, and certain acts of war/treason will circumvent the protections of both for those that are american citizens
Jose Padilla? "You're a terrorist, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200" I mean after 3 years they finally decided to charge him with something.
jose padilla is a perfect example of the supreme courts failing this country, an american citizen attends terrorist training camps, this makes them an enemy combatant, this makes them a member of a non-uniformed enemy military group, had this been 1973 and he went to be trained by the soviets then he would have been held for military tribunal or even executed for treason, you are all also glossing over the fact that they have not been charged guilty, yes they've been incarcerated for a long time, and that sucks, but you can't let members of invading armies full communication with the outside world

the supreme court is not the total fucking godhead of the country, though i understand that many libs have begun to believe so as that seems to be the only place they can get a victory anymore, what with justices creating laws (the job of congress) and citing foreign laws (justice breyer) as precedent through which to interpret the American Constitution, they only have 1/3 of the power, and are not infallible
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6699|Southeastern USA

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

its not quite so random as the popular media has led you to believe, you don't go to gitmo without good reason,
Sources please? I'm assuming that by "good reason" you mean "good evidence" and not "suspicion" or "super strong hunches".

kr@cker wrote:

however, technically the constitution and the bill of rights only apply to american citizens, and certain acts of war/treason will circumvent the protections of both for those that are american citizens
I'm willing to believe you, I just prefer facts to conjecture, and I can't prove you correct after 3 minutes of googling.

Source please?
as to the first, I usually find the evidence in the crap that IFC and Sundance constantly air trying to condemn gitmo, they follow some parent/activist pissed off that their child has been taken into custody, the parent/activist starts following the childs footsteps, the movie turns into a terrorist version of "where in the world is carmen san diego", coincidentally touring all the major terrorist hot spots from the India/Pakistan/Afghanistan borders to Bali, maybe the kids were innocent, but it's still a dumbass move to start tailing militant extremists and expect no one to notice, I think the movie I'm specifically referring to is "the road to guantanamo", not sure, it hasn't been on lately


as to the second, I'm guessing you're not talking about the const and BoR, but the treason thing, I was referring to things like Lincoln's suspending of habeus corpus, declaring martial law, Roosevelt's internment of asian citizens in WWII and such, no specific references, just recalling some US history

edit: and you're right to be calling me out on the sources, oddly enough when I first started posting i posted nothing but lists of facts

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-09-30 22:32:55)

Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6859|Wilmington, DE, US

kr@cker wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

its not quite so random as the popular media has led you to believe, you don't go to gitmo without good reason, however, technically the constitution and the bill of rights only apply to american citizens, and certain acts of war/treason will circumvent the protections of both for those that are american citizens
Jose Padilla? "You're a terrorist, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200" I mean after 3 years they finally decided to charge him with something.
jose padilla is a perfect example of the supreme courts failing this country, an american citizen attends terrorist training camps, this makes them an enemy combatant, this makes them a member of a non-uniformed enemy military group, had this been 1973 and he went to be trained by the soviets then he would have been held for military tribunal or even executed for treason, you are all also glossing over the fact that they have not been charged guilty, yes they've been incarcerated for a long time, and that sucks, but you can't let members of invading armies full communication with the outside world

the supreme court is not the total fucking godhead of the country, though i understand that many libs have begun to believe so as that seems to be the only place they can get a victory anymore, what with justices creating laws (the job of congress) and citing foreign laws (justice breyer) as precedent through which to interpret the American Constitution, they only have 1/3 of the power, and are not infallible
Sources he attended terrorist training camps? Shit man, if you've got that kind of evidence give it to the prosecution. They'd love to have it.
ITI..JACKSTONE..ITI
Member
+3|6757
Well all I got to say is. Hooray for the home team. About time some peeps got a spine.
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6805|United States of America
Purple Nurpling someone causes pain and suffering.  Would you liberals approve of titty twisting the terrorist to try to get them to talk?????

Of course as someone on the forum already pointed out, this will just lead to the terrorists Purple Nurpling our troops when they catch them.......  War just isn't fun anymore like it was back in the day, I'm surprised anyone still wants to have them.
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6852|New York

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

The Republican Senate completed the double play started by the House today, passing a bill which grants Bush the power of indefinite, unreviewable detention - even of American citizens. The bill also legalizes various torture techniques.

You can read the full text of the bill by searching for bill # 6166 here or download the PDF here

Most opponents of the bill focus on the fact that it authorizes interrogation techniques that, as the NYT says, "normal people consider torture".

They complain that it also gives the President the power to detain indefinitely - with no need to bring charges  - all foreign nationals and legal resident aliens in the US.

The last straw is that the bill also grants the President the power to do the same to American citizens. Yep, if the Pentagon says you are an enemy, they don't need proof. They can just lock you up and do whatever they want with you, for as long as they want, with no trial.

Of course, many people might think this is great. Their idea of a fantastic country is one where our government can, without proof, declare anyone a terrorist, including you or me. And one where the government can throw you or me into a jail cell indefinitely, using whatever secret interrogation techniques they feel is appropriate.

Some people define this sort of thing as "giving the government tools to fight terrorism". It is an opinion I disagree with.

As liberally-biased, know-nothing commie Yale Law School poly sci prof Bruce Ackerman pointed out:

Bruce Ackerman wrote:

The compromise legislation, which is racing toward the White House, authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights.

This [subsection (ii) of the definition of 'unlawful enemy combatant'] means that if the Pentagon says you're an unlawful enemy combatant -- using whatever criteria they wish -- then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to 'hostilities' at all.
The far-left pinko NY Times, who for some reason seems to value the right to fair trial over the maximization of presidential power, summarized the flaws of the bill in a recent editorial.

The NY Times wrote:

Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

The Geneva Conventions:  The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.
The Senate vote was 65-34. Only one Republican (Chafee, of course) voted against it. Twelve Democrats (including Lieberman, of course) voted for it. Only 7 Republicans voted against it in the House (vs 160 Democrats).

I believe the passage of this bill is a moral disgrace and a harmful embarrassment to our country. The Democrats again falter, with many cowering at the prospect of seeming "soft on terror". The Republicans vote overwhelmingly in support of - my definitions of course - torture and tyranny.

Patrick Henry warned us about this 200 years ago.

Patrick Henry wrote:

Is the relinquishment of the trial by jury and the liberty of the press necessary for your liberty? Will the abandonment of your most sacred rights tend to the security of your liberty? Liberty, the greatest of all earthly blessings--give us that precious jewel, and you may take everything else! ...Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.
Edit: added links to the full text of the bill
Edit: changed first link to something permanent
Complete and Utter over reaction. Nuff said. Your paranoid. Got something to hide? Worried?

Last edited by <[onex]>Headstone (2006-10-01 21:12:23)

The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6651|Los Angeles

Major_Spittle wrote:

Purple Nurpling someone causes pain and suffering.  Would you liberals approve of titty twisting the terrorist to try to get them to talk?????

Of course as someone on the forum already pointed out, this will just lead to the terrorists Purple Nurpling our troops when they catch them.......  War just isn't fun anymore like it was back in the day, I'm surprised anyone still wants to have them.
Not bad, let's see how you did:

1) lack of a point - CHECK!
2) "what-if" fantasy scenario - CHECK!
3) poor spelling - NO
4) five or more consecutive punctuation marks - DOUBLE CHECK!
5) misquoting/misinterpreting a liberal poster's comments - CHECK!

Five out of five thanks to #4!
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6651|Los Angeles

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

Complete and Utter over reaction. Nuff said. Your paranoid. Got something to hide? Worried?
Uh... yeah, I'm worried whenever the administation rewrites the law to take away the rights of Americans.

What makes me even more worried is when some American citizens stand by and justify it. I don't understand it... maybe it's daddy issues?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6751|132 and Bush

Just so you know the definition of the people subject to this Bill.
         

(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

                  `(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

                  `(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6651|Los Angeles

Kmarion wrote:

Just so you know the definition of the people subject to this Bill.
         

(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

                  `(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

                  `(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.
What's your point?
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6805|United States of America

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

Purple Nurpling someone causes pain and suffering.  Would you liberals approve of titty twisting the terrorist to try to get them to talk?????

Of course as someone on the forum already pointed out, this will just lead to the terrorists Purple Nurpling our troops when they catch them.......  War just isn't fun anymore like it was back in the day, I'm surprised anyone still wants to have them.
Not bad, let's see how you did:

1) lack of a point - CHECK!
2) "what-if" fantasy scenario - CHECK!
3) poor spelling - NO
4) five or more consecutive punctuation marks - DOUBLE CHECK!
5) misquoting/misinterpreting a liberal poster's comments - CHECK!

Five out of five thanks to #4!
Answer my question, would you approve of Purple Nurpling a terrorist to gain information?
samfink
Member
+31|6705
and you really think the combatant review tribunal will actually determine ANYONE innocent of being an enemy combatant? and for thse that attacked my spelling before, I was concerend about the bit that said people can be arrested in any country anywhere. that to me is an infringement of national sovriegnity, givne that that would mean they could arrest anyone even if they, say, had been given political asylum becasue they would be persecuted in the US? ( I'm leraving asdie the question of why here) I mean, if it is a warzone and the army arrest the terrorist, fine, but NOT the CIA or an6y other intelligence agency, and the bill should be better written. I understand they don't want to have to release the terrorists amongst the gitmo detainees, but it seems several lonmg-term inmates may well have been innocent. this is the kind of thing that happened in the aincien regime in france that was overthrown in the french revolution. does america really need to go back to the 18th century?

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