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2006-09-20 22:49:26
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Heh, even though 'altruistic war' is a pleonasm.
No it isn't:  alruistic on it's own doesn't make sense as it's a descriptor, and there are many wars which aren't altruistic.
I actually said that to see what your response would be...but correctly put, 'altruistic war' would be an oxy-moron. Yes, the two terms are, for the most part, incongruous. Whatever end a war in its classical definition will lead to, the destruction of human life will accompany it. Unfortunately, there are times when war is necessary, despite monetary and materiel costs.

I can't wait for the day when humans can stop killing eachother long enough to spread to the cosmos to kill other creatures.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-20 22:52:35)

2006-09-21 00:24:32
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6801
How is it an oxymoron?  Wars can be fought for the right reason, like, say, liberation of an oppressed people, or the wrong reason, like, say, money.
2006-09-21 00:49:44
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6758|Montucky

Bubbalo wrote:

How is it an oxymoron?  Wars can be fought for the right reason, like, say, liberation of an oppressed people, or the wrong reason, like, say, money.
You also forgot for wrong reason, religion, like, say, this is my holy land and the reply to people occupying that certain clump of dirt is, no its my holy land.... you get the idea.
2006-09-21 04:05:08
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

How is it an oxymoron?  Wars can be fought for the right reason, like, say, liberation of an oppressed people, or the wrong reason, like, say, money.
A war fought for liberation doesn't necessarily make it an altruistic war. The circumstances which demand such a conflict are not altruistic, nor is the manner in which such are usually fought. War is a universally dirty, horrid thing.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-21 04:05:24)

2006-09-21 04:23:40
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

IRONCHEF wrote:

M1-Lightning wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

hehe, you are an example of one with textbook paranoia.  I love that opening line  "Religion was most likely created in order to..."   Based on what?  Your limited understanding of something that has as long of a history as....the wheel?
I've read the bible. It's as ambigious as Nostradamus writings. Nothing in that book proves any god exists, rather only the existence of a belief in a god. In fact, nothing in that book can be proven. The ark of the covenent, ten commandments, christ's tomb, noah's ark... all fairy tales unless you can show me evidence. The line "Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see" comes to mind. Some understanding of science and a little trickery of magic and you can convince the dumbest people in god.
lol!  based on what you think of the bible, shows the reason for which you read it.  If you want to learn to repair cars, you read car manuals.  If you want to learn God's dealings with man and read the testimonies of prophets regarding God, then you read scriptures.  And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't.  And yes, there are writings both Jewish (massada scrolls) and secular that talk about the dead coming from their graves when Christ was to have resurrected.  There are written testimonies of people seeing and touching Christ.  Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true.  Damn I'm sick of you retards trying to mount an argument equipped only with google and wikipedia searches.  Yeah, I can sit on a toilet with a newspaper and make intelligent conversations at parties too..but it doesn't mean I know things for myself!

Spiritual things can be discerned only with spiritual eyes.  This is why it's laughable that people think they need to prove biblical things scientifically.  The whole purpose is to prove it with a much greater sense than touch, feel, sight, and sound.  What is the point of seeing something if you'll forget?  Exactly.  But with spiritual things, you are seeing it on a much more memorable scale that will cause you to never forget.  I've seen too many proofs that are too sacred to share in a public game forum that no amount of scientific heresay or brainwashing could erase.  And guess what, I've learned them of myself despite pollux's bizarre notion that I'm brainwashed by some preacher.
Must every debate on religion turn into this? A quagmire of opposing sides, each calling the other's beliefs baseless and stupid.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-09-21 04:31:17
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK
Something i just wanted to say as im reading through this is...

If you need religion to be good ie you believe if your bad you will go to hell, then your a weak minded pathetic little shit! I would be more than happy to hear of you commiting suicide now plz. Im an atheist, but i dont need some book to give me morals and values. If you cant look yourself in the mirror and feel proud then your life is majorly screwed up. All orgainised religion does it tells people how they should acted based on what their leaders think, now as far as im concerned its up to every individual to learn that for themselves and could well be the meaning of life. Lets face the fact that even if their is a god, why would he care about you at all? How can someone even claim that they have talked to god or know what he wants us to do? Its incomprehendable, something that made the universe would be so much more important than us that i dont see how you can even imagine the concept.

Personally i dont believe there is a god and even if there is he is irrelivent, cruel, uncaring and i spit on him.
2006-09-21 04:35:39
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK

IRONCHEF wrote:

Oh, and I'd love for you to cite some of the "science" that proves evolution.
I'd love for you to cite some of the evidence that proves god made man, btw i dont think some book that is huge amount fiction and retranslated over 100 times and originally written over 2000 years ago counts as evidence...
2006-09-21 04:38:30
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6949|Wilmington, DE, US
This is what I find flawed. I can be an upstanding individual and not believe in Christ and go to hell, or I can kill a few children and ask Christ to forgive me, become "born-again", whatever, and I'm set.

I think if Jesus were such a stand up guy he'd give me a heads up if I were a good person.
2006-09-21 04:47:28
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

IRONCHEF wrote:

Oh, and I'd love for you to cite some of the "science" that proves evolution.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=324166#p324166
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=318772#p318772
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=318434#p318434
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=312192#p312192
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=314661#p314661
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=311959#p311959

Those links are a mix of questions, arguments and counter-arguments (all by me. The first one is my favourite). Come back when you've answered them all, I don't feel like writing new ones now.

Last edited by Spark (2006-09-21 04:48:27)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-09-21 04:48:36
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK

IRONCHEF wrote:

cheshiremoe wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

...And since your logic is so simple, I'll give you a simple question to refute your thoughts...can you prove the Ark of the Covenant didn't exist?  Can you prove Noah wasn't really on a ship for a little over a year as the earth was flooded?  Can you prove that Christ did not actually live after he was dead?  No, you can't...
Your argument here is completely flawed.  You can't prove anything by not being able to prove the opposite.
You sir have committed the "Burden of Proof fallacy"
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie … proof.html I will be referencing this site more in future forum arguments to debunk silly logical distractions.

The whole the bible is gods word and so god exists is Begging the Question fallacy or circular evidence
Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."
besides this is not about weather god exists or not, it is about organizations that control others.  Bringing up the debate about gods existence is the Red Herring to distract us from the original topic.  Most of the arguments in these forums have someone committing an argumentative fallacy(usually a Personal Attack).  I want to see more of you people using valid arguments.
Stay on topic people.
People have clearly commented and made their points supporting or condemning organized religions.  I am not utilizing said red herring to distract from the topic, I've instead supported the existence of God and basic belief structures that require organized religion to exist to sustain such existence of God.

Also, the burden of proof is on nobody so I wasn't trying to prove the bible was true with my reversed questions.  I was making the point that there is no proof against biblical occurences therefore keeping the possibilities open.  Then I proceeded to explain how to gain proof of such things.
So if the bible cant be proved or disproved give me one good reason to follow it? Im not some medevil peasant who doesnt understand chemical reactions and other scientific things. Im not some brainwashed child that needs someone else to tell me what is right or wrong. If i did believe in god give me one good reason why i should worship him because some man said so over 2000 years ago.
2006-09-21 04:51:57
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6924|United States of America

Spark wrote:

Must every debate on religion turn into this? A quagmire of opposing sides, each calling the other's beliefs baseless and stupid.
Apparently, yes. Everyone who believes is called something along the lines of...oh I don't know...a weak-minded, pathetic, little shit" by those who insult over the internet. I have already shared my belief that there is no evidence to support or refute the Bible.

Yet I do believe some of these "I read the Bible" people are odd. I bet some of you read it with a closed mind or in the view that it is a collection of stories. Yet both the parables told by Jesus and his actions are in there. Even so though, I am a Catholic and never read the whole thing either; never even read a whole book in it with the exception of the Gospels.

But you don't even have to be a Christian to get the message of the Bible. It has some good lessons in there. I'm sure those who "read it" would tell you that it does, in fact, promote positive actions. Nobody is being told to kill, steal, or practice infidelity. You don't want to be the person who strikes back for nothing (kind of like result of a TK punish) with the "turn the other cheek" mentality. You have the parable of the mob about to stone the woman where Jesus said, "Let whichever of you is without sin cast the first stone." It promotes peace, understanding, and forgiveness in short.

Also, for the individuals saying, "It's years old." The prostitution industry is older than the stories of Jesus, but you don't have any problem with that just because of the age, do you? Possible moral objection but not age.

Last edited by DesertFox423 (2006-09-21 04:54:33)

2006-09-21 04:59:40
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK
O guys i thought i would just inform you that i had a dream where god talked to me and said "Thy will is for thee to kill IRONCHEF because he is making a crap case for religion." Sorry IRON but you know how it is... god says, I do.

[/Sarcasm]

That is the sort of crap orgainised religion is based on, any religious leader could talk crap like that and their brainwashed followers would do it.
2006-09-21 05:01:53
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK

DesertFox423 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Must every debate on religion turn into this? A quagmire of opposing sides, each calling the other's beliefs baseless and stupid.
Apparently, yes. Everyone who believes is called something along the lines of...oh I don't know...a weak-minded, pathetic, little shit" by those who insult over the internet. I have already shared my belief that there is no evidence to support or refute the Bible.

Yet I do believe some of these "I read the Bible" people are odd. I bet some of you read it with a closed mind or in the view that it is a collection of stories. Yet both the parables told by Jesus and his actions are in there. Even so though, I am a Catholic and never read the whole thing either; never even read a whole book in it with the exception of the Gospels.

But you don't even have to be a Christian to get the message of the Bible. It has some good lessons in there. I'm sure those who "read it" would tell you that it does, in fact, promote positive actions. Nobody is being told to kill, steal, or practice infidelity. You don't want to be the person who strikes back for nothing (kind of like result of a TK punish) with the "turn the other cheek" mentality. You have the parable of the mob about to stone the woman where Jesus said, "Let whichever of you is without sin cast the first stone." It promotes peace, understanding, and forgiveness in short.

Also, for the individuals saying, "It's years old." The prostitution industry is older than the stories of Jesus, but you don't have any problem with that just because of the age, do you? Possible moral objection but not age.
As you said... you havent read much of the bible, the bible has repeated comments about killing and killing for god is good, the bible promotes violence and killing whenever it suits it. As i have said before orgainised religion is just an excuse for some guys to hold power over others.
2006-09-21 05:04:36
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6801

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

A war fought for liberation doesn't necessarily make it an altruistic war. The circumstances which demand such a conflict are not altruistic, nor is the manner in which such are usually fought. War is a universally dirty, horrid thing.
So, your issue is with the terminology?  I presumed it would be understood that the meaning was that one side was fighting it for purely selfless, moral reasons.  Apparently that's too much to assume.  I'm sorry for not realising that those I was speaking with were too dense to understand.  Honestly, I am.
2006-09-21 05:07:46
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

A war fought for liberation doesn't necessarily make it an altruistic war. The circumstances which demand such a conflict are not altruistic, nor is the manner in which such are usually fought. War is a universally dirty, horrid thing.
So, your issue is with the terminology?  I presumed it would be understood that the meaning was that one side was fighting it for purely selfless, moral reasons.  Apparently that's too much to assume.  I'm sorry for not realising that those I was speaking with were too dense to understand.  Honestly, I am.
While you pause to lob mental insults my way, allow me to barge on with my obsession with terminology:

Actually, it is apparently too much to understand that while certain individuals may selflessly fight a war for moral ideology, war itself is not altruistic. Greed is the prime governing factor of organized conflict.

Calling upon the proverbial dead horse: while you could call landmark acts such as the liberation of France and various imprisoned Jews in the 40's altruistic, could you honestly call WW2 an altruistic one? Therein lies the oxy-moron.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-21 05:12:46)

2006-09-21 05:14:49
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK
LOOK STOP ARGUING ABOUT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE! this is like the 4th argument about it in this thread, stay on topic about orgainised religion being the bane of all life.
2006-09-21 05:17:57
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Vilham wrote:

LOOK STOP ARGUING ABOUT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE! this is like the 4th argument about it in this thread, stay on topic about orgainised religion being the bane of all life.
NEVER!
2006-09-21 05:49:29
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6801

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Actually, it is apparently too much to understand that while certain individuals may selflessly fight a war for moral ideology, war itself is not altruistic. Greed is the prime governing factor of organized conflict.
THAT'S MY FUCKING POINT!  As yet there has not, to my knowledge, been a war fought for altruistic reasons (which is possible but unlikely).
2006-09-21 06:10:34
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Actually, it is apparently too much to understand that while certain individuals may selflessly fight a war for moral ideology, war itself is not altruistic. Greed is the prime governing factor of organized conflict.
THAT'S MY FUCKING POINT!  As yet there has not, to my knowledge, been a war fought for altruistic reasons (which is possible but unlikely).
Then why do you contest the claim that an altruistic war is an oxy-moron (until such exists that belies the trend)?
2006-09-21 06:12:04
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7006|UK

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Actually, it is apparently too much to understand that while certain individuals may selflessly fight a war for moral ideology, war itself is not altruistic. Greed is the prime governing factor of organized conflict.
THAT'S MY FUCKING POINT!  As yet there has not, to my knowledge, been a war fought for altruistic reasons (which is possible but unlikely).
Then why do you contest the claim that an altruistic war is an oxy-moron (until such exists that belies the trend)?
Guys i can hear the train coming...
2006-09-21 13:22:07
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6924|United States of America
Find me a verse, or even better a chapter in the Bible that shows it means "killing for god is good, the bible promotes violence and killing whenever it suits it" before you make such an outrageous claim.
2006-09-21 13:32:09
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|6949|Charlie One Alpha
I'm just going to throw this out here without reading anything which has gone before:

Both World Wars had nothing to do with religion. (Yes, the Jews were hunted, but this was not what the war was ABOUT.)

Same goes for let's say... Vietnam. Politics are just as bad, if not worse than religions (communism vs. 'democracy', independance wars, civil wars) Also, oil. Also, greed for about anything else.
Basically, people will use just about any excuse they can find to kill eachother if they think it will help them.

Not to mention domestic violence, organised crime, street murders, barfights, FUCKING SOCCER HOOLIGANS (it's a fucking game for fuck's sake), and a million other things that have nothing to do with religion. Blaming all/most violence on organized religion is just plain stupid.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
2006-09-21 13:34:09
topthrill05
Member
+125|6817|Rochester NY USA
Quite sad that some of you just think religion is all bad. If we were too look in a history book we would see that humans have killed each other for many other reasons and if religion were not too exist we would find something else too kill about.

You have to be extremely ignorant too think if religion were gone the world would run alot better. So please stop bashing something that has help millions. Yes is has killed millions as well, but what hasn't? ( I don't need a sarcastic remark to that).

EDIT: Someone just said it better then me.

Last edited by topthrill05 (2006-09-21 13:35:26)

2006-09-21 13:37:35
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|6949|Charlie One Alpha

topthrill05 wrote:

EDIT: Someone just said it better then me.
Thank you.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
2006-09-21 14:26:38
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7011|PNW

DesertFox423 wrote:

Find me a verse, or even better a chapter in the Bible that shows it means "killing for god is good, the bible promotes violence and killing whenever it suits it" before you make such an outrageous claim.
Actually, killing was commanded by God in here and there in the bible, despite that one inconvenient commandment. I suppose there were exceptions to the rule...

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-09-21 14:26:50)

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