http://lolloosechange.co.nr/ is the shit..pot_o_gold wrote:
loose change was the shit dont be dissin it
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Uuh, your E-penis must be suffering of lack of space in your pants now...blisteringsilence wrote:
To quote Will Ferrell, You're either English or just retarded. The length of a day is governed by the speed of the earth's rotation, not by the distance from the earth to the moon. While the moon is indeed moving away from the earth, its only booking it at 3.8 centimeters a year. That's less than the length of your penis. For comparison, the Eiffel Tower expands 15 cm during the summer because of the heat.dknessfalls wrote:
about the moon hitting us, its actually the opposite, the moon is slowly but surely leaving us...reason y in 1000 years, we'll have 27 hour days
While there is indeed fact to the assertion that the moon affects the speed of the rotation of the earth, it is not significant enough to be of concern. It took us a billion years to add 6 hours to the earth's day. So, for you to be around for your 27 hour day, you'll have to live 500 million years. And you penis will still only be 4 cm long.
I'll be expecting my $1000 check within the week. PM me for my mailing address.
Yes the moon is increasing its orbit by less then a metre (dont know exact figures) a year.Sylvanis wrote:
Ummm, pay up. The moon is actually moving further away from the earth due to it's rotation around said planet, and if you suspend anything of that size above the earth at such an altitude it will not fall towards it, there is simply not enough gravity.Twist wrote:
ie:
The moon will hit the earth very soon. I have proof of this because: 1) The moon is a very large rock suspended above earth, and 2) if you take a rock, raise it above earth and let it go, it will fall.
Now I offer YOU $1000 to disproove any of my two "facts"... You can't because they ARE facts... My USE of those facts however, is totally bogus.
Ok, I think this guy's been burned enough. Maybe next time he will put some thought into his snappy quips.
But the rest of what you wrote is wrong, and you would know this if you had a year 11 physics education. Twists example is very valid and correct if the info he supplied was the only this present.
If you stopped the moon it would lose its orbit and gravity would act on both moon and earth to make them hit each other. The only thing keeping the moon from hitting the earth is its centripetal velocity. All things in orbit must travel at a precise velocity for the certain hieght to maintain its orbit. If its too fast it will fly out of the earths gravitational pull (what the moon is doing very slowly). If its too slow will lose its orbit and come back down to earth.
If the earth stopped its rotation around the sun it would also fall into it. Basic physics can explain everything.
Last edited by DrunkFace (2006-09-13 00:02:19)
Actually, anything that is in orbit is in a perpetual free-fall. It is constantyly falling towards the Earth, just not getting closer
Is there any way I can prod you people back on topic? Maybe a stun gun or a cattle prod?
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
For every video like this there is a counter arguement that pokes major holes into it. I watched only half of it but nothing in the first part got my juices flowing. If you want to be objective you can't say one way or another based on such a work because you'd have to go and research every single fact that this guys says. Then you'd have to research all the things that the guy doesn't say to see if he is ommitting other information which would poke holes in what he is saying. Besides, even if you assume that most of what he says is right the evidence is circumstantial at best.
In my opinion, the US government and CIA are not as clever as this guy makes em out to be.
Also, one last thing about conspiracy theorists: Why is it that everyone of them has a different theory on any given conspiracy? If there was an absolute truth that was somehow discovered by those researching the facts then shouldn't the majority of conspiracy theorists researching a given conspiracy come to the same conclusions? Take 9/11, there are so many theories out there about the conspiracy that took place: it was Israel, it was Cheney, it was the CIA, it was a coverup for Enron...etc....at least have all the conspiracy theorists make up their mind on what exactly the conspiracy was and i'll start taking them more seriously.
Until then I'll trust CNN, Reuters, AP and NY Times for my news and investigative work. Cause otherwise it would mean that journalists like Edward R. Murrow, Mike Wallace, Ed Bradley and Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (who brought down nixon) were all stooges with no integrity who did not report all the facts because of censorship or other pressures.
In my opinion, the US government and CIA are not as clever as this guy makes em out to be.
Also, one last thing about conspiracy theorists: Why is it that everyone of them has a different theory on any given conspiracy? If there was an absolute truth that was somehow discovered by those researching the facts then shouldn't the majority of conspiracy theorists researching a given conspiracy come to the same conclusions? Take 9/11, there are so many theories out there about the conspiracy that took place: it was Israel, it was Cheney, it was the CIA, it was a coverup for Enron...etc....at least have all the conspiracy theorists make up their mind on what exactly the conspiracy was and i'll start taking them more seriously.
Until then I'll trust CNN, Reuters, AP and NY Times for my news and investigative work. Cause otherwise it would mean that journalists like Edward R. Murrow, Mike Wallace, Ed Bradley and Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (who brought down nixon) were all stooges with no integrity who did not report all the facts because of censorship or other pressures.
I watched the entire video. I have been doing research about this topic for about a year now, nothing to extensive just enough to come to my own conclusions for my own sanity. For me this video really ties the loose ends together and connects the dots. It is disturbing to know how things truly are in America after being taught to place my faith in the US while growing up.
This video is from 2001 and the most interesting thing that I have found on this man is his latest news letter. Just to spark curiosity he has secretly fled the country to Venezuela after being terrorized.
To the people posting that didn't watch the entire video, it's silly for you to think that you can make a valid contribution to this thread. It doesn't even matter because you most likely didn't finish reading this post.
This video is from 2001 and the most interesting thing that I have found on this man is his latest news letter. Just to spark curiosity he has secretly fled the country to Venezuela after being terrorized.
To the people posting that didn't watch the entire video, it's silly for you to think that you can make a valid contribution to this thread. It doesn't even matter because you most likely didn't finish reading this post.
I wake up with a big stiffy each morning and THATS REAL..... no conspiracy theory here, just a fact of life...watch out 3 rd world people here i cum
If he has been researching it up to 9/11 why didn't he do anything to stop it? He is a terrorist now!~Cougar wrote:
Gee, I don't know, 18 years of research perhaps.Sgt_Sieg wrote:
Before I watch it, may I ask how he knows all this stuff if we was only a detective in a city police department?
So how many of them do I have to work. Or can I use it for sleep. Just wondering..LOLdknessfalls wrote:
about the moon hitting us, its actually the opposite, the moon is slowly but surely leaving us...reason y in 1000 years, we'll have 27 hour daysTwist wrote:
Dude... dont get carried away... Just because he can find stuff that you cannot disproove, that's not to say that HIS interpretation is the right one....
ie:
The moon will hit the earth very soon. I have proof of this because: 1) The moon is a very large rock suspended above earth, and 2) if you take a rock, raise it above earth and let it go, it will fall.
Now I offer YOU $1000 to disproove any of my two "facts"... You can't because they ARE facts... My USE of those facts however, is totally bogus.
Why do you think conspiracy theorists actually get peopel to listen to them ? Because if you dont think things THROUGH, they dont sound that stupid after all. And dont get carried away about people "recieving" his newsletter. I'm willing to lay odds that these politicians are either getting the newsletter involutarily (ie. he sends it just in the hopes that they may read it, all the while it makes for something nice to light up the fireplace), or they're getting it because they're trying to impress someone over something. No US senator or governor is STUPID enough to disbelieve the facts of 9/11, and CERTAINLY noone are dumb enough to try to bullshit the americans into believing that it WASN'T an attack. That'd just loose them the next election.. and that's a politicians livelyhood !
Man you children have alot to learn, theres something called centralfugal force this force is outwards... that is why the moon doesnt fall onto the earth.Twist wrote:
Dude... dont get carried away... Just because he can find stuff that you cannot disproove, that's not to say that HIS interpretation is the right one....
ie:
The moon will hit the earth very soon. I have proof of this because: 1) The moon is a very large rock suspended above earth, and 2) if you take a rock, raise it above earth and let it go, it will fall.
Now I offer YOU $1000 to disproove any of my two "facts"... You can't because they ARE facts... My USE of those facts however, is totally bogus.
Why do you think conspiracy theorists actually get peopel to listen to them ? Because if you dont think things THROUGH, they dont sound that stupid after all. And dont get carried away about people "recieving" his newsletter. I'm willing to lay odds that these politicians are either getting the newsletter involutarily (ie. he sends it just in the hopes that they may read it, all the while it makes for something nice to light up the fireplace), or they're getting it because they're trying to impress someone over something. No US senator or governor is STUPID enough to disbelieve the facts of 9/11, and CERTAINLY noone are dumb enough to try to bullshit the americans into believing that it WASN'T an attack. That'd just loose them the next election.. and that's a politicians livelyhood !
segment from this guy's newletter:
I do not know where I will spend the rest of my days. Maybe in
Venezuela, maybe in Mexico with the Zapatistas, maybe in Bolivia,
maybe in France, Germany, or even Russia. But because
Venezuela has become the singular world leader in resisting US
domination under the courageous, intelligent, and inspired leadership
of Hugo Chavez, I want to begin the rest of my days here.
If there were conspiracies of the proportions that he believes then he would have been dead a long time ago. If the US has not remorse for killing 3000 innocent people in 9/11 do you think they would have any problems killing one more?
I do not know where I will spend the rest of my days. Maybe in
Venezuela, maybe in Mexico with the Zapatistas, maybe in Bolivia,
maybe in France, Germany, or even Russia. But because
Venezuela has become the singular world leader in resisting US
domination under the courageous, intelligent, and inspired leadership
of Hugo Chavez, I want to begin the rest of my days here.
If there were conspiracies of the proportions that he believes then he would have been dead a long time ago. If the US has not remorse for killing 3000 innocent people in 9/11 do you think they would have any problems killing one more?
The fact that Maddox says conspiracy theorys are crap, makes me more inclined to believe them, just out of principle...
I hate that guy.
I haven't watched the whole thing yet, just fitting bits in where I can whilst doing coursework. Very interesting so far. It seems far more factual that anything else I've seen about it.
If what he says is true, if I were the CIA, I would be trying very hard to keep him alive, and rather than get rid of him, discredit him. If he were to die, for whatever reason, first thing people are going to say is that it was the CIA. It just makes his case stronger. By the sound of what he said, he's had his ass covered from day 1.superfly_cox wrote:
segment from this guy's newletter:
I do not know where I will spend the rest of my days. Maybe in
Venezuela, maybe in Mexico with the Zapatistas, maybe in Bolivia,
maybe in France, Germany, or even Russia. But because
Venezuela has become the singular world leader in resisting US
domination under the courageous, intelligent, and inspired leadership
of Hugo Chavez, I want to begin the rest of my days here.
If there were conspiracies of the proportions that he believes then he would have been dead a long time ago. If the US has not remorse for killing 3000 innocent people in 9/11 do you think they would have any problems killing one more?
THANK YOU for someone finally smart enough to understand what I wrote !DrunkFace wrote:
Yes the moon is increasing its orbit by less then a metre (dont know exact figures) a year.Sylvanis wrote:
Ummm, pay up. The moon is actually moving further away from the earth due to it's rotation around said planet, and if you suspend anything of that size above the earth at such an altitude it will not fall towards it, there is simply not enough gravity.Twist wrote:
ie:
The moon will hit the earth very soon. I have proof of this because: 1) The moon is a very large rock suspended above earth, and 2) if you take a rock, raise it above earth and let it go, it will fall.
Now I offer YOU $1000 to disproove any of my two "facts"... You can't because they ARE facts... My USE of those facts however, is totally bogus.
Ok, I think this guy's been burned enough. Maybe next time he will put some thought into his snappy quips.
But the rest of what you wrote is wrong, and you would know this if you had a year 11 physics education. Twists example is very valid and correct if the info he supplied was the only this present.
If you stopped the moon it would lose its orbit and gravity would act on both moon and earth to make them hit each other. The only thing keeping the moon from hitting the earth is its centripetal velocity. All things in orbit must travel at a precise velocity for the certain hieght to maintain its orbit. If its too fast it will fly out of the earths gravitational pull (what the moon is doing very slowly). If its too slow will lose its orbit and come back down to earth.
If the earth stopped its rotation around the sun it would also fall into it. Basic physics can explain everything.
Like I said... This is MY "conspiracy theory". And my facts are valid, but as Drunkface pointed out, they're not the ONLY facts. Thus by ignoring certain facts and focussing on others you can create the illusion that something is different that you originally believed it to be. But by getting ALL of the facts, or at least ENOUGH facts to know that I'm not telling the ENTIRE truth, just "my" way of looking at it, you can tell that I'm wrong in my assumption.
To everyone who thinks they have disprooved my facts: Show me how you can hold out a rock and leave it hanging in midair without it hitting the ground, and you can HAVE your $1000. My fact to disproove was NOT that the moon is hitting earth, that was my "theory". My "fact" to disproove was gravity. Just because you dont BELIEVE in gravity doesn't mean you can fly !
And to Cougar, and to quote him back to himself "get bent". I DID infact watch SOME of this "show", and to me, it's all smoke and mirrors, there IS no smoking gun, no more than the idiot who claims there was no world cup in soccer held in Sweden. He has theories and conjectures, he has ideas and assumptions. But he has no proof. So I didn't watch all of it. It was bogus, IMO.
And yeah, I know there are only a couple of news syndicates that owns most the US news services. That's not to say that there aren't any journalists out there willing to go the extra mile, or editors who wants to show the "truth". You may choose to disbelive this, but some people ACTUALLY have not only good manners (something you so surely lack, cougar), but also some personal and professional integrety.... And yet so surprisingly few seems to have discovered the "truth" according to your prefered conspiracy theorist... I wonder why.
Don't try to insult me by saying I lack basic education. I happen to have a good knowledge of physics as I am a mechanical engineer.DrunkFace wrote:
Yes the moon is increasing its orbit by less then a metre (dont know exact figures) a year.Sylvanis wrote:
Ummm, pay up. The moon is actually moving further away from the earth due to it's rotation around said planet, and if you suspend anything of that size above the earth at such an altitude it will not fall towards it, there is simply not enough gravity.Twist wrote:
ie:
The moon will hit the earth very soon. I have proof of this because: 1) The moon is a very large rock suspended above earth, and 2) if you take a rock, raise it above earth and let it go, it will fall.
Now I offer YOU $1000 to disproove any of my two "facts"... You can't because they ARE facts... My USE of those facts however, is totally bogus.
Ok, I think this guy's been burned enough. Maybe next time he will put some thought into his snappy quips.
But the rest of what you wrote is wrong, and you would know this if you had a year 11 physics education. Twists example is very valid and correct if the info he supplied was the only this present.
If you stopped the moon it would lose its orbit and gravity would act on both moon and earth to make them hit each other. The only thing keeping the moon from hitting the earth is its centripetal velocity. All things in orbit must travel at a precise velocity for the certain hieght to maintain its orbit. If its too fast it will fly out of the earths gravitational pull (what the moon is doing very slowly). If its too slow will lose its orbit and come back down to earth.
If the earth stopped its rotation around the sun it would also fall into it. Basic physics can explain everything.
I acknowledge that my omitting the orbits effect was a mistake, but we can still discuss this without insulting each other
Last edited by Sylvanis (2006-09-13 12:51:34)
The voice of a free mind, I couldn't have said it better ghettoperson.ghettoperson wrote:
If what he says is true, if I were the CIA, I would be trying very hard to keep him alive, and rather than get rid of him, discredit him. If he were to die, for whatever reason, first thing people are going to say is that it was the CIA. It just makes his case stronger. By the sound of what he said, he's had his ass covered from day 1.superfly_cox wrote:
segment from this guy's newletter:
I do not know where I will spend the rest of my days. Maybe in
Venezuela, maybe in Mexico with the Zapatistas, maybe in Bolivia,
maybe in France, Germany, or even Russia. But because
Venezuela has become the singular world leader in resisting US
domination under the courageous, intelligent, and inspired leadership
of Hugo Chavez, I want to begin the rest of my days here.
If there were conspiracies of the proportions that he believes then he would have been dead a long time ago. If the US has not remorse for killing 3000 innocent people in 9/11 do you think they would have any problems killing one more?
I did in 92, But Wish to god i could have back in 2001. The ANGER and feeling of REVENGE is still fresh in my mind to this day. To tell the truth I could give a shit less who dissagrees with it.usmarine2005 wrote:
I understand what the first speaker was saying, but disagree. Also, I envy most of you who were not in the military at that time. I was in Afghanistan a couple months after 9/11. You can't imagine the feeling of having a taliban soldier in your sights and squeezing the trigger with 9/11 fresh in your mind. I will never be able to understand how most of you dealt with the anger of that day. I got to kill the fuckers who supported the attack. Some people praise me for fighting in those wars, but I can't imagine sitting back and not being able to inflict some revenge. That is right I said revenge. That is all that was in my mind. Right or wrong, that is what I was after.
Nice vid BTW.
As for the Vidio, Not bad, But Anything can be presented in a way that represents it as fact. The words "Used Car salesman" come to mind.
I have watched 30 minutes of this boring video... he has yet to make a point... lol...
If the govt is really evil
wouldnt this guy have dissappeared a long time ago... leaving a Walmart without a greeter... lmfao...
If the govt is really evil
wouldnt this guy have dissappeared a long time ago... leaving a Walmart without a greeter... lmfao...
Love is the answer
Oh, come on. What everyone wants to know is whether or not Kyle was responsible for 9/11 or if it was something far more sinister?
And if we get to call these attacks '9/11,' can we call Pearl Harbor '12/7?' Hmm. Doesn't have that same overbloated media ring to it.
And if we get to call these attacks '9/11,' can we call Pearl Harbor '12/7?' Hmm. Doesn't have that same overbloated media ring to it.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-25 22:35:49)
Just wached the whole thing. Found it very informative. And he sources everything he says, as to the guy who posted the thing about the moon, it's called orbit u fucking retard. Go read a fucking book moron.
Well if you are so sure they why don't you give me a link to one? This video is more than 2 years old so I am sure you can find something. If not then spend some time to produce some, and make yourself a $1,000 bucks while at it. Then you could make yourself some $$ with the gratification of proving all of it wrong.superfly_cox wrote:
For every video like this there is a counter arguement that pokes major holes into it.
This isn't Die Hard 4, This isn't suppose to entertain you. It's a lecture! Telling us you only watched half of it tells me one thing: You already made up your mind on how you felt about the video before even watching it.superfly_cox wrote:
I watched only half of it but nothing in the first part got my juices flowing.
So pretty much what you are saying is that his evidence is so well structured, and well presented with all of his sources, that following up on such information would be difficult? We are not talking about quantum physics here, we are talking about some one who can put 2 and 2 together. We are talking about a person that has experience in doing criminal investigations. If you are so sure about this, and keep in mind this video has been out for a while, wouldn't you of already seen something on the subject matter of disproving his evidence?superfly_cox wrote:
If you want to be objective you can't say one way or another based on such a work because you'd have to go and research every single fact that this guys says.
Circumstantial? circumstantial?!?! I I guess the Bush Bin Laden link is just circumstantial, I guess it's only circumstantial that NORAD stood down, I guess its only circumstantial that a CIA agent was visiting Bin Laden in a hospital. I guess its only circumstantial that the FBI was ordered to stand down on the bin laden investigations.superfly_cox wrote:
Then you'd have to research all the things that the guy doesn't say to see if he is ommitting other information which would poke holes in what he is saying. Besides, even if you assume that most of what he says is right the evidence is circumstantial at best.
Really? Please share with me what makes you think that. I find it really naive to think that the Central Intelligence Agency isn't celever enough with all of its knowledge of governments and just how well the system works. Please, clue me in.superfly_cox wrote:
In my opinion, the US government and CIA are not as clever as this guy makes em out to be.
That is called DISINFORMATION, read up on it. I am sure that you understand the real 9/11 investigators can't control what these wackjobs post up and call it 9/11 evidence. Please squeegee your eyes and realize that not all people that investigate our government and 9/11 are NOT in the same group. It's just back and white to you huh? Republican and Democrat, left and right, up and down. Please understand that your grouping of other peoples real investigations, and wackjob 9/11 theories are NOT on the same team.superfly_cox wrote:
Also, one last thing about conspiracy theorists: Why is it that everyone of them has a different theory on any given conspiracy? If there was an absolute truth that was somehow discovered by those researching the facts then shouldn't the majority of conspiracy theorists researching a given conspiracy come to the same conclusions? Take 9/11, there are so many theories out there about the conspiracy that took place: it was Israel, it was Cheney, it was the CIA, it was a coverup for Enron...etc....at least have all the conspiracy theorists make up their mind on what exactly the conspiracy was and i'll start taking them more seriously.
Maybe if you would watch the whole video you will learn his sources are from CNN, Reuters, AP, NY Times, and other major media outlets. There are true reporters out there reporting on these events. The big wigs can't control the reporters, but they sure do control the programming and what the top stories of the hour are. If you watched the whole film he mentions this.superfly_cox wrote:
Until then I'll trust CNN, Reuters, AP and NY Times for my news and investigative work. Cause otherwise it would mean that journalists like Edward R. Murrow, Mike Wallace, Ed Bradley and Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (who brought down nixon) were all stooges with no integrity who did not report all the facts because of censorship or other pressures.
Holy gollly gee willickers whack unlyrical logic bombs Batman!!!duk0r wrote:
Well if you are so sure they why don't you give me a link to one? This video is more than 2 years old so I am sure you can find something. If not then spend some time to produce some, and make yourself a $1,000 bucks while at it. Then you could make yourself some $$ with the gratification of proving all of it wrong.superfly_cox wrote:
For every video like this there is a counter arguement that pokes major holes into it.This isn't Die Hard 4, This isn't suppose to entertain you. It's a lecture! Telling us you only watched half of it tells me one thing: You already made up your mind on how you felt about the video before even watching it.superfly_cox wrote:
I watched only half of it but nothing in the first part got my juices flowing.So pretty much what you are saying is that his evidence is so well structured, and well presented with all of his sources, that following up on such information would be difficult? We are not talking about quantum physics here, we are talking about some one who can put 2 and 2 together. We are talking about a person that has experience in doing criminal investigations. If you are so sure about this, and keep in mind this video has been out for a while, wouldn't you of already seen something on the subject matter of disproving his evidence?superfly_cox wrote:
If you want to be objective you can't say one way or another based on such a work because you'd have to go and research every single fact that this guys says.
Circumstantial? circumstantial?!?! I I guess the Bush Bin Laden link is just circumstantial, I guess it's only circumstantial that NORAD stood down, I guess its only circumstantial that a CIA agent was visiting Bin Laden in a hospital. I guess its only circumstantial that the FBI was ordered to stand down on the bin laden investigations.superfly_cox wrote:
Then you'd have to research all the things that the guy doesn't say to see if he is ommitting other information which would poke holes in what he is saying. Besides, even if you assume that most of what he says is right the evidence is circumstantial at best.Really? Please share with me what makes you think that. I find it really naive to think that the Central Intelligence Agency isn't celever enough with all of its knowledge of governments and just how well the system works. Please, clue me in.superfly_cox wrote:
In my opinion, the US government and CIA are not as clever as this guy makes em out to be.That is called DISINFORMATION, read up on it. I am sure that you understand the real 9/11 investigators can't control what these wackjobs post up and call it 9/11 evidence. Please squeegee your eyes and realize that not all people that investigate our government and 9/11 are NOT in the same group. It's just back and white to you huh? Republican and Democrat, left and right, up and down. Please understand that your grouping of other peoples real investigations, and wackjob 9/11 theories are NOT on the same team.superfly_cox wrote:
Also, one last thing about conspiracy theorists: Why is it that everyone of them has a different theory on any given conspiracy? If there was an absolute truth that was somehow discovered by those researching the facts then shouldn't the majority of conspiracy theorists researching a given conspiracy come to the same conclusions? Take 9/11, there are so many theories out there about the conspiracy that took place: it was Israel, it was Cheney, it was the CIA, it was a coverup for Enron...etc....at least have all the conspiracy theorists make up their mind on what exactly the conspiracy was and i'll start taking them more seriously.Maybe if you would watch the whole video you will learn his sources are from CNN, Reuters, AP, NY Times, and other major media outlets. There are true reporters out there reporting on these events. The big wigs can't control the reporters, but they sure do control the programming and what the top stories of the hour are. If you watched the whole film he mentions this.superfly_cox wrote:
Until then I'll trust CNN, Reuters, AP and NY Times for my news and investigative work. Cause otherwise it would mean that journalists like Edward R. Murrow, Mike Wallace, Ed Bradley and Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (who brought down nixon) were all stooges with no integrity who did not report all the facts because of censorship or other pressures.
Why? Look at the outpoor after William Cooper's death (i.e. non-existant).ghettoperson wrote:
If he were to die, for whatever reason, first thing people are going to say is that it was the CIA. It just makes his case stronger.
Like the govt.'s ever gonna get more than a slap on the wrist because of it's kill tactics (Ruby Ridge, Waco..)....