Pages: 1 2

 

2006-09-08 15:44:13
Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6767
According to a national poll, 50% of Americans believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. The real kicker is, despite finding No weapons in Iraq upon invasion and having still found none, the number of people who believe Iraq had WMDs is up from last year's 36%. That means, with no proof at all, more and more people are beginning to believe Iraq had WMDs. This poll has no colors, red or blue; seemingly both Democrats as well as Republics believe this, which makes me wonder: Are we honestly so desperate to justify our actions that we will latch onto pretty much anything?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279553

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
2006-09-08 15:47:35
White-Fusion
Fuck
+616|6797|Scotland
How the heck do you have -1 lol
2006-09-08 15:47:39
SgtSlutter
Banned
+550|6883|Amsterdam, NY
lol how do you have negitive karma?
2006-09-08 15:48:35
White-Fusion
Fuck
+616|6797|Scotland
lol nice slauther
2006-09-08 15:48:44
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6952|Germany
Let me put it that way... how would the US look if they wouldn't have any "legitimate" reason, made-up or real (quite irrelevant for the point I am trying to make)? They would just look like an warmongering aggressor... Not too few are starting to compare Bush to Hitler nowadays but imagine how the world AND the US citizens would look upon the US if the government would not at least try to justify?
2006-09-08 15:52:39
Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6767

White-Fusion wrote:

How the heck do you have -1 lol
Some guy didn't like the picture I posted in a "Post your favorite car" post. I'm dead serious too; he just didn't like the car.

And this was back in the day when there was neg karma. Back when I walked to school. In the snow. Uphill. Both ways.
2006-09-08 15:55:16
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6954|Wilmington, DE, US
You can fool most people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
2006-09-08 15:55:51
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7009|d

Protecus wrote:

White-Fusion wrote:

How the heck do you have -1 lol
Some guy didn't like the picture I posted in a "Post your favorite car" post. I'm dead serious too; he just didn't like the car.

And this was back in the day when there was neg karma. Back when I walked to school. In the snow. Uphill. Both ways.
i was gone give u +1, to stop u lookin so F**king cool. guess ill let somone else do it.
2006-09-08 15:56:01
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7003|Argentina
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=43527
2006-09-08 15:57:03
[AD]will_young[G36E]
spreader of the herpies
+33|6775|Down under, melbourne

White-Fusion wrote:

How the heck do you have -1 lol
mUWHAHAHAH i karmed him and now he is just a 0 karma forum noobie
2006-09-08 15:58:26
Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6767

BEE_Grim_Reaper wrote:

Let me put it that way... how would the US look if they wouldn't have any "legitimate" reason, made-up or real (quite irrelevant for the point I am trying to make)? They would just look like an warmongering aggressor... Not too few are starting to compare Bush to Hitler nowadays but imagine how the world AND the US citizens would look upon the US if the government would not at least try to justify?
I partially agreed, however I'm not even sure if this is the governments fault (shocker, I know). This may be comletely of the people; we are just reaching out for anything. Of course, it doesn't help with O'Reilly damning me to hell for thinking anything else. If anything, and I know this will sound repeated and rather dry, but I would blame the media; with their cut and past journalism style in recent years coupled with the way they will follow a story and beat it to death, it is almost no wonder we'll buy anything.
2006-09-08 16:04:11
[AD]will_young[G36E]
spreader of the herpies
+33|6775|Down under, melbourne
he is no longer a rebelious -1er!

enemy boat spotted
2006-09-09 07:40:19
Plaprad
Member
+2|6718|Warner Robins GA
What happened to the Chem weapons we found. Last class I was in Chemical weapons were classified as WMD's. So why is everyone saying we didn't find any when they found loads of chem weapons after we went in.
2006-09-09 08:05:47
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6846|132 and Bush

Protecus wrote:

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
Some people worry more about what they look like rather than their own securtiy. It's a balance I feel . And both ideas can be harmful. As for your topic, the war in Iraq began in 2003 so an "excuse" is a little to late to be needed. Saddam did have WMD's at some point. This is a fact. I have posted this link before but I would rather just post the link rather than the images so I can warn people to prepare themselves before they follow it.
http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html . Whether or not it was a threat to the US is a different story.  Perhaps if the UN did it's job and made sure it's resolutions were carried out this "excuse" you claim we need would never had been a debatable topic. http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/13456.htm
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2006-09-09 08:43:21
jonsimon
Member
+224|6740

Plaprad wrote:

What happened to the Chem weapons we found. Last class I was in Chemical weapons were classified as WMD's. So why is everyone saying we didn't find any when they found loads of chem weapons after we went in.
All we found were the ones we gave him to help install his regime. We already knew they were they and what they were, because we gave them to him. And they were old and inactive.

Also, according to the 'intelligence' we went in on, he had nuclear capabilities. He didn't.
2006-09-09 11:19:40
Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6767

Kmarion wrote:

Protecus wrote:

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
Some people worry more about what they look like rather than their own securtiy. It's a balance I feel . And both ideas can be harmful.
I have no problem with defending ourselves and providing security for our country, but I believe we can do it without shooting off our mouths and looking like ignorant degenerates. We were respected at one time, not too long ago.


Kmarion wrote:

Saddam did have WMD's at some point. This is a fact.
True, he did have WMDs. Decades old WMDs that were both inactive and ill-prepared to be used as anything less than a door stop. Remember all the talk of mobile chemical weapons labs? There were some great CGI drawings and sketches of them, but I have yet to actually see one. After the invasion we did find evidence of rockets and chemical delivery systems, but those were just the pieces that were left after he dismantled his arsenal.

Last edited by Protecus (2006-09-09 11:20:49)

2006-09-09 11:30:32
Foxhoundmgw
Man of Moebius Morals
+71|6826|Nottingham, UK

jonsimon wrote:

And they were old and inactive.
The word you seek is degraded.
2006-09-09 13:47:45
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6870|Home of the Escalade Herds

Protecus wrote:

According to a national poll, 50% of Americans believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. The real kicker is, despite finding No weapons in Iraq upon invasion and having still found none, the number of people who believe Iraq had WMDs is up from last year's 36%. That means, with no proof at all, more and more people are beginning to believe Iraq had WMDs. This poll has no colors, red or blue; seemingly both Democrats as well as Republics believe this, which makes me wonder: Are we honestly so desperate to justify our actions that we will latch onto pretty much anything?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279553

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
It's all psychology.

1. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war without legitimate reasons where tons of civilian/military death ensues?

or

2. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war for honorable reasons where everything done is for the greater good.

Most people will call them selves patriotic and force themselves to believe #2. I see a lot of it on these forums, people too cowardly to admit they live in a country driven by a corrupt goverment that fucks over there own populace (the military) as well as killing thousands of innocent civilians.

It's just so much easier to believe we are the best and make no mistakes. We as citizens pay for the stuff that happens in the ME. Thats pretty close to direct responsibility. Would you rather believe your paying for freedom and honor or death and corruption?
2006-09-09 14:17:13
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6805

PRiMACORD wrote:

Protecus wrote:

According to a national poll, 50% of Americans believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. The real kicker is, despite finding No weapons in Iraq upon invasion and having still found none, the number of people who believe Iraq had WMDs is up from last year's 36%. That means, with no proof at all, more and more people are beginning to believe Iraq had WMDs. This poll has no colors, red or blue; seemingly both Democrats as well as Republics believe this, which makes me wonder: Are we honestly so desperate to justify our actions that we will latch onto pretty much anything?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279553

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
It's all psychology.

1. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war without legitimate reasons where tons of civilian/military death ensues?

or

2. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war for honorable reasons where everything done is for the greater good.

Most people will call them selves patriotic and force themselves to believe #2. I see a lot of it on these forums, people too cowardly to admit they live in a country driven by a corrupt goverment that fucks over there own populace (the military) as well as killing thousands of innocent civilians.

It's just so much easier to believe we are the best and make no mistakes. We as citizens pay for the stuff that happens in the ME. Thats pretty close to direct responsibility. Would you rather believe your paying for freedom and honor or death and corruption?
And who determines the legitimacy of war? The common citizen who has no clue of the inside workings of governments? I would hope not, seeing how most Americans aren't educated or smart enough to determine legitimacy of war. It is the elected officials who have the responsibility.
2006-09-09 18:20:43
phnxfrhwk
Member
+14|6918|Just outside of baltimore, Md.
Granted the whole WMD aspect of it was a total mistake. Should we have gone to war with Iraq? No. Are the citizens of Iraq thankfull for us being there and removing the dictator they once had? From what Ive seen, yes for the most part. There are those few radicals/extreemist that are still hardline against western influence.  Will the country be better off with its new form of government? Well in my opinion, Yes.

I swear the polls are taken in some backwater town where people believe tabloids more than news from multiple sources. Either that or they just make up some random numbers. 

I may not support the war in Iraq but I feel that when all is said and done, and all of the troops are back home, Iraq will be a better place.
2006-09-09 19:31:57
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6952|Germany

Protecus wrote:

BEE_Grim_Reaper wrote:

Let me put it that way... how would the US look if they wouldn't have any "legitimate" reason, made-up or real (quite irrelevant for the point I am trying to make)? They would just look like an warmongering aggressor... Not too few are starting to compare Bush to Hitler nowadays but imagine how the world AND the US citizens would look upon the US if the government would not at least try to justify?
I partially agreed, however I'm not even sure if this is the governments fault (shocker, I know). This may be comletely of the people; we are just reaching out for anything. Of course, it doesn't help with O'Reilly damning me to hell for thinking anything else. If anything, and I know this will sound repeated and rather dry, but I would blame the media; with their cut and past journalism style in recent years coupled with the way they will follow a story and beat it to death, it is almost no wonder we'll buy anything.
Cut and paste journalism... That's on cue.... The question is: From what do they cut and paste? Thing is todays media are just as biased in politics as anyone else is.

Let me put it that way... The way how media and governments cooperate today to influence the masses I am pretty sure that Goebbels would have turned green out of envy
2006-09-09 19:41:25
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6815|Portland, OR, USA

rawls2 wrote:

PRiMACORD wrote:

Protecus wrote:

According to a national poll, 50% of Americans believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003. The real kicker is, despite finding No weapons in Iraq upon invasion and having still found none, the number of people who believe Iraq had WMDs is up from last year's 36%. That means, with no proof at all, more and more people are beginning to believe Iraq had WMDs. This poll has no colors, red or blue; seemingly both Democrats as well as Republics believe this, which makes me wonder: Are we honestly so desperate to justify our actions that we will latch onto pretty much anything?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279553

Lastly, as just a heartfelt request: For any American post-ers, please do not flame me or anyone else with clique talk of Hippies, pussies, or "Get the hell out of my county you unpatriotic bastard" phrases. Quite honestly, the US looks pretty bad and unintelligent as is and you are seriously not helping.
It's all psychology.

1. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war without legitimate reasons where tons of civilian/military death ensues?

or

2. Would you like to belong to a country that goes to war for honorable reasons where everything done is for the greater good.

Most people will call them selves patriotic and force themselves to believe #2. I see a lot of it on these forums, people too cowardly to admit they live in a country driven by a corrupt goverment that fucks over there own populace (the military) as well as killing thousands of innocent civilians.

It's just so much easier to believe we are the best and make no mistakes. We as citizens pay for the stuff that happens in the ME. Thats pretty close to direct responsibility. Would you rather believe your paying for freedom and honor or death and corruption?
And who determines the legitimacy of war? The common citizen who has no clue of the inside workings of governments? I would hope not, seeing how most Americans aren't educated or smart enough to determine legitimacy of war. It is the elected officials who have the responsibility.
I HATE that viewpoint.  Its like saying "hey govenment, I know you're doing the right thing so screw me over".  Like Bush is more intelligent then half the US population? I highly doubt it. 

We have to govern our government just as much as they govern us.  Otherwise we end up fighting wars that most of the nation does not want to be in.  "democracy" think again.
2006-09-09 20:42:31
RCL_spd
Member
+0|6929|Russia (currently Poland)

CommieChipmunk wrote:

I HATE that viewpoint.  Its like saying "hey govenment, I know you're doing the right thing so screw me over".  Like Bush is more intelligent then half the US population? I highly doubt it.
But it's obvious that they know better, no irony here. Are you sure that you have the 'big picture' of the events? Are you sure that you posess the information that is being gathered from myriad of sources and thoroughly analyzed?

People often think that they know the truth. What they know in fact is a distorted part of the truth presented to them by the media. Don't even think that part is sufficient to form an unbiased opinion.

For example... I read Russian, Polish, English media. Every country has its own version of events. Only after reading news reports of a certain event from two or three different sources, I can (more or less) figure what really happened.

So... how could you consider yourself more intelligent than your government, that has special services assigned to the task of gathering, sorting and analyzing the information?

You think you can beat them with Google, eh?

Last edited by RCL_spd (2006-09-09 20:44:28)

2006-09-09 21:03:58
Protecus
Prophet of Certain Certainties
+28|6767

RCL_spd wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

I HATE that viewpoint.  Its like saying "hey govenment, I know you're doing the right thing so screw me over".  Like Bush is more intelligent then half the US population? I highly doubt it.
People often think that they know the truth. What they know in fact is a distorted part of the truth presented to them by the media. Don't even think that part is sufficient to form an unbiased opinion.
That is exactly the reason why the U.S. is a poor Democracy. Despite being the word most thrown around and the way we love to describe ourselves, if we were a true democracy nothing would ever get done (maybe we are a Democracy...) As a Republic, a country ruled by representatives who can actually research issues and vote/command accordingly, the U.S. is much more effective. The key is to hold our representatives accountable; don't run out to the polls election day then take a couple of years off; keep 'em on their toes. As CommieChipmunk put it, we've got to govern our government.

This is one of the problems out here in California. Every bill and measure that comes along is voted on directly by the people instead of by their representaives. While that sounds well and good,  I would bet half of the people have no idea what Proposition 32.5 is and half of those don't care enough to find out, much less vote on it.
2006-09-09 21:53:44
RCL_spd
Member
+0|6929|Russia (currently Poland)
Representatives are Ok. This is probably the best solution currently available.

However,  what seems to be more fair system to me is a 'weighted' voting. My English is not that good and I can't come up with better name, so I'll describe.

Each vote has some 'weight' associated with it. Ideally, the more intelligent you are (or the more taxes you pay), the greater your vote's weight is. This way you still has the direct democracy, but you are no more dominated by uneducated majority. Actually, all the current systems can be modelled (direct democracy: all weights = 1, republic: weight = 1 for representatives, 0 otherwise).

Probably the scale should be non-linear, and it'll take time to adjust the weights. This system is more flexible (I don't really like waiting 4 years before you can change anything). The main ideas here are:

1) Leave majority the way to rule directly, if it badly wants it
2) Do not let important decisions be blocked by housewives who didn't care to read the proposition.

EDIT: Important point: of course weights should be dynamically assigned according to your current contribution to the community in question.

Last edited by RCL_spd (2006-09-09 21:59:47)

 

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