you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??sergeriver wrote:
When you are thinking that way, you are as fundamentalist as the terrorist you hate.lowing wrote:
Ya, ok.............just let me know when you are packed and ready to fly off to paradise.jonsimon wrote:
No, as a matter of fact. We are talking about a hypothetical idealistic society under islamic law. Because the actions of muslims do no represent the sentiments of Islam, they are irrellevant.
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.lowing wrote:
you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??sergeriver wrote:
When you are thinking that way, you are as fundamentalist as the terrorist you hate.lowing wrote:
Ya, ok.............just let me know when you are packed and ready to fly off to paradise.
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.lowing wrote:
you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??sergeriver wrote:
When you are thinking that way, you are as fundamentalist as the terrorist you hate.
Perhaps the fact that I was speaking of a hypothetical society that doesn't exist. It's hard to hop on a plane to nowhere. Unless you're headed to Kansas that is.lowing wrote:
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.lowing wrote:
you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??
I never said life as a muslim would be any better than what I have now, but I stipulated that it surely wouldn't be WORSE.
You're putting words in my mouth.
lol lowing i love the fact that you ignore my point because it completely destroys your argument...
Or maybe it is because, as the late great Sam Kenison said " We MOVED to where the fuckin' food is"Vilham wrote:
or alternativly you can say countries that get regular rain fall thus allowing us to provide enough to eat easily and allowing us to spend our time on other things other than farming for survival... just another possible reason why we are better off.choongy wrote:
There were civilisations in the East while the West was just a bunch of scattered tribes, but we still developed faster than them. Just my opinion here, but it seems majority of countries with Christianity as their main religion have done far better then their muslim counterparts.Vespid wrote:
I have a lot of hope for the future.
Just like the Middle East, the west has a history full of torture and executions done under the pretense of religion. Europe has a history rife with war and conquest and intolerance and barbarism. America, like the rest of the world, has a history of Slavery and conquest over the native Americans.
Now we live in relative peace and prosperity--due in large part to the lessons we have learned from these horrible times--and we look at the middle east and aren't able to understand why they seem to be so violent and hateful towards everyone unlike them. I believe that it may be because they are going through the same developmental stages that the west went through.
A serious problem is that current times provide a much more dangerous world in which to go through this stage of development. The west went through this stage without access to modern weapons. Imagine if France and Britain had machine guns during the 100 years war! Imagine if they had chemical weapons during the Crusades! Imagine if Spain had nerve gas during their inquisition!
Thank God that the west developed these weapons over thousands of years, learning in the process the level of danger and destructiveness they can unleash. I believe that the development of more and more deadly weapons throughout our social development has helped tame us and has lead us to think more thouroughly about going to war. I cite the cold war as an example of this. How much more likely would the cold war have become hot if it were not for the threat of total annihilation? The West has experienced the destructive power of this type of weapon and learned that it must never be used. Many countries in the Middle East, however, would probably not give a second thought to detonating a nuclear weapon in London or Paris or Washington DC.
But I have hope for the future that even though the middle east was introduced to this type of warfare before they were socially ready, they are extraordinary people and they will adapt. They will eventually force themselves into catching up socially with their technology. We must be patient with them as a people, not judgemental or arrogant. Our ancestors in The United States did not fight for our independence from Britain the very first time Britain was despotic torwards them. For hundreds of years our ancestors tolerated the rule of Britain. It will probably take hundreds of years for the people of the countries in the Middle East to do the same. We must pray for them. If we only pray for our friends, then how will our enemies come to know peace? And of course, we must remain vigilant with them to protect ourselves until our patience and prayers pay off.
For these reasons, I support the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of what naysayers claim our president's real intentions are. Just like a tiny crystal of ice can help water freeze more quickly, we may be creating a tiny crystal of structure around which a more civilized society can develop much more quickly than it did in the West.
Ummmmmmm what post is that? Could be I ignored your post because I agreed with it.Vilham wrote:
lol lowing i love the fact that you ignore my point because it completely destroys your argument...
So living as a Muslim in the ME is JUST as bad as living as a free American in the US...???? Better hurry ya don't wanna miss your flight.jonsimon wrote:
Perhaps the fact that I was speaking of a hypothetical society that doesn't exist. It's hard to hop on a plane to nowhere. Unless you're headed to Kansas that is.lowing wrote:
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.
I never said life as a muslim would be any better than what I have now, but I stipulated that it surely wouldn't be WORSE.
You're putting words in my mouth.
lowing, I'm really struggling here man. Whats this reference to planes to counter every point someone makes? Is it reference to planes being blown up in mid flight or reference to Muslims getting on a plane and getting out of your country?lowing wrote:
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.lowing wrote:
you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??
read back, my friend here says he wishes we could all live like true Muslims that life is better than how we live now. I simply offered him a one way plane ticket so he could go live his dream in the ME.JahManRed wrote:
lowing, I'm really struggling here man. Whats this reference to planes to counter every point someone makes? Is it reference to planes being blown up in mid flight or reference to Muslims getting on a plane and getting out of your country?lowing wrote:
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.
Don't know if you've ever seen the special episode of The West Wing dedicated to 9/11, but a useful quote came from there which sums up the terrorist activity and them using their religion to explain their actions:
'Islamic extremist is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity'
Just another view which seems to make sense.
'Islamic extremist is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity'
Just another view which seems to make sense.
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmmjonsimon wrote:
The KKK, the Catholic church of the Medieval ages, the IDF. They all use their religions as justification for their oppressions and evils.ht_fly wrote:
Every faith preaches charitable and peaceful life.
but christians and jews do not used the perscribed punishments found in the bible to carry out justice!
Are we going to stone the whores!
Are we really practicing an eye for eye in the western world!
Ah, but under Islam, if practiced and followed to the rule, then there is an eye for and eye.
Islam practiced to the T would create a peaceful man who was introspective and sought to better himself. He would give to others and strike only when struck.
You cannot claim that Islam creates Islamic extremists, because extremists do not follow Islam.
You are forgetting the most crucial thing behind extremism, and the VERY FIRST thing you should know.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmmjonsimon wrote:
The KKK, the Catholic church of the Medieval ages, the IDF. They all use their religions as justification for their oppressions and evils.ht_fly wrote:
Every faith preaches charitable and peaceful life.
but christians and jews do not used the perscribed punishments found in the bible to carry out justice!
Are we going to stone the whores!
Are we really practicing an eye for eye in the western world!
Ah, but under Islam, if practiced and followed to the rule, then there is an eye for and eye.
Islam practiced to the T would create a peaceful man who was introspective and sought to better himself. He would give to others and strike only when struck.
You cannot claim that Islam creates Islamic extremists, because extremists do not follow Islam.
Korans are not the same. Mohammed would probably be able to point out thosands of inconsistencies - big ones - to what he actually said. The thing has been translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted and interpreted again until some extremist ends up with an extremist version of the Koran.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Your not proveing a thing Sighting actions taken during MEDEVIL Times compared to today. If you read the writings you defend so passionatly, you will see many, if not more refrences to violence than you will find in the Original Bible. I as a christian(not in practice) Use the bible only as my guid. The other writings are just off shoots of the original writings. A continuation if you will, and in other centuries and times.jonsimon wrote:
Christianity is open to even greater misinterpretation. It has not one, but a plethera of books to consider. Study the Catholic church during the medieval age, it manipulated interpretations constantly.ht_fly wrote:
Yeah it does, as long as everyone is the right kind of muslim.
That is like wishing in one hand and crapping in the other!
I know which one will be filled first.
By the way your counter arguement proves my point, KKK and the IDF, just proves the Islam has crazy people just like Christians and Jews. But I would be correct in asuming that Islam has a harder time controlling these off shoots due to the decenterialized structure of the Islamic religion which leaves the Koranic text open to vast interpretations!
They take things out of context, read my earlier post : http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=689741#p689741<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmmjonsimon wrote:
The KKK, the Catholic church of the Medieval ages, the IDF. They all use their religions as justification for their oppressions and evils.ht_fly wrote:
Every faith preaches charitable and peaceful life.
but christians and jews do not used the perscribed punishments found in the bible to carry out justice!
Are we going to stone the whores!
Are we really practicing an eye for eye in the western world!
Ah, but under Islam, if practiced and followed to the rule, then there is an eye for and eye.
Islam practiced to the T would create a peaceful man who was introspective and sought to better himself. He would give to others and strike only when struck.
You cannot claim that Islam creates Islamic extremists, because extremists do not follow Islam.
i could look in any religious book and twist it to what i want.
This may be true, and it probably is because People are making Mohammad into the person they would most like to be. But the fact is, The bible hasn't been rewritten by catholics, It might have been interpreted to fit some's beliefs or actions, but the original writings are still intact and followed.Spark wrote:
You are forgetting the most crucial thing behind extremism, and the VERY FIRST thing you should know.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmmjonsimon wrote:
The KKK, the Catholic church of the Medieval ages, the IDF. They all use their religions as justification for their oppressions and evils.
Islam practiced to the T would create a peaceful man who was introspective and sought to better himself. He would give to others and strike only when struck.
You cannot claim that Islam creates Islamic extremists, because extremists do not follow Islam.
Korans are not the same. Mohamed would probably be able to point out thousands of inconsistencies - big ones - to what he actually said. The thing has been translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted and interpreted again until some extremist ends up with an extremist version of the Koran.
TY for the link, I cant read 16 pages of posts LOL.the_hitman_kills wrote:
They take things out of context, read my earlier post : http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pid=689741#p689741<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmmjonsimon wrote:
The KKK, the Catholic church of the Medieval ages, the IDF. They all use their religions as justification for their oppressions and evils.
Islam practiced to the T would create a peaceful man who was introspective and sought to better himself. He would give to others and strike only when struck.
You cannot claim that Islam creates Islamic extremists, because extremists do not follow Islam.
i could look in any religious book and twist it to what i want.
Peace.
HAHA the bible has been rewritten about 20-30 times over the course of its life. "original writings are still intact and followed" lol!<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
This may be true, and it probably is because People are making Mohammad into the person they would most like to be. But the fact is, The bible hasn't been rewritten by catholics, It might have been interpreted to fit some's beliefs or actions, but the original writings are still intact and followed.Spark wrote:
You are forgetting the most crucial thing behind extremism, and the VERY FIRST thing you should know.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
BUT, They DO Use the Koran to Justify there actions. Soooooooooo Hmmmmmm
Korans are not the same. Mohamed would probably be able to point out thousands of inconsistencies - big ones - to what he actually said. The thing has been translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted and interpreted again until some extremist ends up with an extremist version of the Koran.
Lowing, I'd prefer to live in the moon rather being under muslim laws, but I ain't nobody to tell them what to do with their lifes. I'm happy living the "western life style". Do you want my ticket I ain't using it anyway.lowing wrote:
Nope, you are are stating that life as a Muslim would be far better than life as a free thinking man in a western culture. I say fine, get your ass on a plane and go be a Muslim. OR tell us what it is EXACTLY that is stopping you from doing so??jonsimon wrote:
Good old lowing. Always dredging up old arguments to dodge.lowing wrote:
you wanna ticket as well so you can sit next to him??
Last edited by sergeriver (2006-08-23 04:57:37)
Dude I'm not talking about the Frigging bible you might read in the motel room, I'm talking Original teachings and writings. Believe it or not Some(like me) Are not part of the organized sheep farms(churches if you will). I live my life according to a mix of Morals and real world survival strategy.Vilham wrote:
HAHA the bible has been rewritten about 20-30 times over the course of its life. "original writings are still intact and followed" lol!<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
This may be true, and it probably is because People are making Mohammad into the person they would most like to be. But the fact is, The bible hasn't been rewritten by catholics, It might have been interpreted to fit some's beliefs or actions, but the original writings are still intact and followed.Spark wrote:
You are forgetting the most crucial thing behind extremism, and the VERY FIRST thing you should know.
Korans are not the same. Mohamed would probably be able to point out thousands of inconsistencies - big ones - to what he actually said. The thing has been translated, retranslated, interpreted, reinterpreted and interpreted again until some extremist ends up with an extremist version of the Koran.
Actually... Bush started neither of these wars. Even if you say the Afghanistan war would have been planned before, it was still started by the Taliban, on 9/11. The Cold War was also planned... but it never happened, because noone started it. Iraq war... you know when it started, Bush just cleared out what should have been done years ago.sergeriver wrote:
Somalia was Clinton's affair, so it has nothing to do with these 2 wars Bush started. I think Clinton went to Somalia, with the hope of helping people for nothing. I don't buy Bush doing anything free.Vintageologist wrote:
Do you think there was no terror crap before 9/11 in those countries? 9/11 was just the trigger for the public to wake up. Funny thing is... if all the actions the U.S. are doing are about oil... wtf did they try to do in Somalia then? And again, even if the major oil companies have aquired rights to the oil fields there... should we watch some terrorists take them away from them in the course of achieving total power? And if it's about oil... why are they helping those people build up infrastructure and all? Wouldn't it be easier to just build up some fences (simplified speaking) around their oil fields now that their are in temporary control?sergeriver wrote:
For your information the war in Afghanistan was planned much before 9/11, or do you think they prepared it in 1 month? So, it was not a counter attack. American major oil companies had adquired rights on the oilfields in the middle east. It's all about oil, they don't give a shit (I mean Bush and buddies only) for the oppressed people in Afghanistan, in Iraq or whatever.
But the laws are not directly in the Quran, they are interpretations of fucktards, that's why a life under these laws would be crap. I highly doubt that Mohammed (if he ever existed) wanted people to blow themselves up killing civilians... or girls being killed for trying to learn to read.jonsimon wrote:
All Im saying is the Koran preaches a peaceful and charitable life. Anyone who claims islamic law would somehow be violent or opressive is using the term incorrectly.ht_fly wrote:
jonsimon
then kiss good bye what you take for granted now!
Last edited by Vintageologist (2006-08-23 05:15:56)
You poor propoganda believeing simpleton.ATG wrote:
http://i8.tinypic.com/24oxfl0.jpg
Please visit the links below
Excluding civilian murdered by soldiers during wartime these have got to be the most absurd executions of all time.
They are gay; hang them.
They brought Bibles to Saudi Arabia; behead them.
She went to classes to learn to read; shoot her.
This my friends, is a preview of life under Sharia ( that's Islamic Law, for you unschooled types ).
Islamic led governments such as those in Iran, Saudia Arabia, Niger, Pakistan, Afganistan, Eygpt and many others have put people to death for mundane acts such as those listed above.
What kind of animal would shoot a woman in the head for wanting to read?
What kind of man could put a noose around another mans neck because they don't like girls?
What kind of a government could sanction and carry out executions of people in this modern time for religious beliefs?
What kind of human fecal matter would destroy thousand year old statues of Budha because it wasn't an Islamic icon.
The answer to all of the above is of course, Muslim.
9-11 and terrorism aside, these are all primary reasons why the West is at war with Islam. Make no mistake, these people will not stop until you either convert to Islam and live under Sharia as a second class citizen, or die.
The United States can't say it, but I can call a spade a spade. This is a crusade, and we must finish it this time. This ideology must be crushed before, like a poisonous cancer, it spreads
We are at war with Islam, and I say it's a fight we need to win.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/7/22/102249/246
http://therhema.blogspot.com/2006/04/ex … di_11.html
http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm
EDIT, I have known many great people who are ethnically Muslim. This is why it's so sad for me; I know these people.
But he did invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Who else did? As far as I can remember no afghan person was linked to 9/11, most of them were from Saudi Arabia. Iraq, well Saddam was a piece of shit, true but still their piece of shit. He went to both places to get the oil.Vintageologist wrote:
Actually... Bush started neither of these wars. Even if you say the Afghanistan war would have been planned before, it was still started by the Taliban, on 9/11. The Cold War was also planned... but it never happened, because noone started it. Iraq war... you know when it started, Bush just cleared out what should have been done years ago.sergeriver wrote:
Somalia was Clinton's affair, so it has nothing to do with these 2 wars Bush started. I think Clinton went to Somalia, with the hope of helping people for nothing. I don't buy Bush doing anything free.Vintageologist wrote:
Do you think there was no terror crap before 9/11 in those countries? 9/11 was just the trigger for the public to wake up. Funny thing is... if all the actions the U.S. are doing are about oil... wtf did they try to do in Somalia then? And again, even if the major oil companies have aquired rights to the oil fields there... should we watch some terrorists take them away from them in the course of achieving total power? And if it's about oil... why are they helping those people build up infrastructure and all? Wouldn't it be easier to just build up some fences (simplified speaking) around their oil fields now that their are in temporary control?
Then WHY THE FUCK ARE MY GAS PRICES SO HIGH??????? Please get off the Oil defense will yas already. WTF!sergeriver wrote:
But he did invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Who else did? As far as I can remember no afghan person was linked to 9/11, most of them were from Saudi Arabia. Iraq, well Saddam was a piece of shit, true but still their piece of shit. He went to both places to get the oil.Vintageologist wrote:
Actually... Bush started neither of these wars. Even if you say the Afghanistan war would have been planned before, it was still started by the Taliban, on 9/11. The Cold War was also planned... but it never happened, because noone started it. Iraq war... you know when it started, Bush just cleared out what should have been done years ago.sergeriver wrote:
Somalia was Clinton's affair, so it has nothing to do with these 2 wars Bush started. I think Clinton went to Somalia, with the hope of helping people for nothing. I don't buy Bush doing anything free.