BF2S Forums Snipeing and KDR's

Sniper+Defense = Lose.

Simply because your team loses 1 mobile flag capper/assaulter.

You have 2 claymores, just chuck them around flag points and leave.  That's your defense.

Nyte wrote:

Sniper+Defense = Lose.

Simply because your team loses 1 mobile flag capper/assaulter.

You have 2 claymores, just chuck them around flag points and leave.  That's your defense.

I see it a different way Nyte. If you can defend a flag, why would you need to cap it?

Claymores, though effective, weren't meant for that kind of duty, and I refuse to use them that way.

Different sniping styles I guess...

Last edited by BigmacK (2006-08-18 17:08:00)

At least I dont teamswitch, so a WLR around 1 adds up perfectly to what I do in this game.

If I want to move beyond the 1 , I can allways play certain sides on certain maps. Or switch. As for now I really dont much give a flying fuck about a WLR.

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

I just cant see why players who claim to be so good with a sniper rifle barely have decent KDR's with the kit. Just because you can shoot well doesnt mean your always helping your team.

Because firing the rifle and using the rest of your kit are two different things maybe? Kits are influenced by just about anything you do in the game which adds up to a kill.
So a sniper with a lower rifle score but an ubar high kit ratio is a better sniper than one with a high rifle score and a lower kit ratio? What kind of fantasy world are you living in?

Nyte is a very good shot which is illustrated by his accuracy and high ranking in the sniper Top 100. So him being able to shoot well helps out his team enormously.

And just tonight I saved 3 tank crews from being butchered by an AT guy and in the other 2 instances from a SpecOps. Nailing them before they could do damage to my team was helping out my team as a whole. We didnt loose ground and we didnt loose tickets. Hell I even took away some tickets from the other team.
So what was your point again?

Last edited by Jemme101 (2006-08-18 18:27:15)

Nyte wrote:

You have 2 claymores, just chuck them around flag points and leave.  That's your defense.

He's right about that.
Although I never move far away from my protected flag,I can pick off enemies on long range without neglecting the flag I feel obliged to defend.

Mj.Blindfisch wrote:

Nyte wrote:

You have 2 claymores, just chuck them around flag points and leave.  That's your defense.

He's right about that.
Although I never move far away from my protected flag,I can pick off enemies on long range without neglecting the flag I feel obliged to defend.

Thats what i do on the south side of wake sometimes when i know thats where the blackhawk will fall first. Its better to get 2-5 kills and a couple of flag defends than ppl complaining about it....wait, that comes with the package too evidently

Nyte wrote:

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

Its been my opinion for a while that if your a sniper and have less then or barely a 2/1 KDR, then you my friend are not a good sniper. These idiots like nyte can shoot well and what not and sure hes good. Now im not saying hes not good but when you die almost as many times as you kill your really not helping your team, as your loseing tickets also for your own side. Snipers were never meant to be played like supoort or medic or assault. I typcially just move to where ever the action is on the map and find a good spot a bit aways from the action. but get close enough so that I know whats going on and i can clearly see the heads of enemys.

I just cant see why players who claim to be so good with a sniper rifle barely have decent KDR's with the kit. Just because you can shoot well doesnt mean your always helping your team. Now I know some of you are saying its not about winning...well your wrong it is. The whole point of all your efforts in the round is to win and maintain a decent KDR at least 3/1 or higher with a sniper kit. Because you kill some guy 3 times and only die once....thats 3 tickets less for them and only 1 less for your team.

So while players like nyte and w/e else are good shots with a rifle alot of the time there not helping much.

OHHH, so is THAT why my WLR beats all those snipers with KDR's above 2.

GG own.

why do i have a bigger wlr / kdr and a better spm then you ?

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

Nyte wrote:

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

Its been my opinion for a while that if your a sniper and have less then or barely a 2/1 KDR, then you my friend are not a good sniper. These idiots like nyte can shoot well and what not and sure hes good. Now im not saying hes not good but when you die almost as many times as you kill your really not helping your team, as your loseing tickets also for your own side. Snipers were never meant to be played like supoort or medic or assault. I typcially just move to where ever the action is on the map and find a good spot a bit aways from the action. but get close enough so that I know whats going on and i can clearly see the heads of enemys.

I just cant see why players who claim to be so good with a sniper rifle barely have decent KDR's with the kit. Just because you can shoot well doesnt mean your always helping your team. Now I know some of you are saying its not about winning...well your wrong it is. The whole point of all your efforts in the round is to win and maintain a decent KDR at least 3/1 or higher with a sniper kit. Because you kill some guy 3 times and only die once....thats 3 tickets less for them and only 1 less for your team.

So while players like nyte and w/e else are good shots with a rifle alot of the time there not helping much.

OHHH, so is THAT why my WLR beats all those snipers with KDR's above 2.

GG.

your so insecure its ridiculous. Always out to prove ur better. You look like a retard with a L9 snipeing in close combat. if your gonna snipe do it correctly. And your stats arent even 2/1....so be quiet nyte. Everyones got a hard on for nyte, its pretty sad really. Then you come here posting your life story 'confessions of Nyte"...like ANYONE really cares. ive seen you before on servers, its pretty sad....you snipe guys from 2 feet away....kill 1 guy, then you die and a medic revives you.

be thankful for medics nyte or ur KDR would be  negative with sniper kit. Snipeing in close quarters is just like useing a chopper to cap flags....your mis-useing the kit/vehicle.

You wanna do that CQ stuff do medic or assault or support.

and dont forget nyte...no matter how good you are, theres always some unknown guy that could always wreck you. You have one of the biggest mouths i've ever seen.

Ha ha.. I find this so funny!  Firstly we have other people complaining that snipers don't do enough for the team so should come and help the team because they are just camping shits that sit at the back of the map and do fuck all.  Now you are telling us that we should do this?! And you're telling me that people like me are bad snipers? Ha ha ha ha.. come play with me and maybe a few other WoOkie's and we'll show you what a good sniper is!

Sort your arguments out first... A good CQC sniper is better at close range than an assault guy as he has the long range option aswell and you tell me what good assault is over long range? Therefore my argument is what does the sniper kit not have that the assault kit does?  Don't be a tool and say "zomfg a smoke grenadezor!!1!1!!!!11" what does the assault kit posses in tactical terms over the sniper kit?

tahadar wrote:

i dont know man, a high WLR to me means one/ a combo of the following:

1. you teamswitch
2. you're a kickass commander
3. you play with the same team of kickass players regularly, or you play against total nubs
4. you're a one-man army (this is only the case if you're a really really good pilot on wake island..)

i have my doubts over how one individual's pure skill factors into their WLR. the KDR, on the other hand, is an almost 100% player-skill based statistic, which is why I 'prefer' KDR over WLR. then there is also the fact that my WLR is utter crap, while my sniper rifle KDR isnt..

Heh, just yesterday I seem to remember having 13 kills before the jets had even got of the ground from the boats coming off the island.  One handedly I held off the whole USMC North assault, one man army FTW!

Last edited by EntertaineR_06 (2006-08-19 01:35:12)

ReDmAn_ThE_uNiQuE wrote:

Jemme101 wrote:

ReDmAn_ThE_uNiQuE wrote:

why do i have a bigger wlr / kdr and a better spm then you ?

Because you whore it up in the tank on SAK?

wrong thats what i did with engeneer
btw only 30 % of my kills are in a vehicle

Thats hard to tell by looking at your Stats, so I will have to take your word for it I guess.

Btw I just noticed that there is a difference between the Total Time Played and the Total Time Kit in my stats. I am missing 27 hours somehow

Nyte wrote:

And I repeat:

"OHHH, so is THAT why my WLR beats all those snipers with KDR's above 2."

ahem

EntertaineR_06 wrote:

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

Nyte wrote:

OHHH, so is THAT why my WLR beats all those snipers with KDR's above 2.

GG.

your so insecure its ridiculous. Always out to prove ur better. You look like a retard with a L9 snipeing in close combat. if your gonna snipe do it correctly. And your stats arent even 2/1....so be quiet nyte. Everyones got a hard on for nyte, its pretty sad really. Then you come here posting your life story 'confessions of Nyte"...like ANYONE really cares. ive seen you before on servers, its pretty sad....you snipe guys from 2 feet away....kill 1 guy, then you die and a medic revives you.

be thankful for medics nyte or ur KDR would be  negative with sniper kit. Snipeing in close quarters is just like useing a chopper to cap flags....your mis-useing the kit/vehicle.

You wanna do that CQ stuff do medic or assault or support.

and dont forget nyte...no matter how good you are, theres always some unknown guy that could always wreck you. You have one of the biggest mouths i've ever seen.

Ha ha.. I find this so funny!  Firstly we have other people complaining that snipers don't do enough for the team so should come and help the team because they are just camping shits that sit at the back of the map and do fuck all.  Now you are telling us that we should do this?! And you're telling me that people like me are bad snipers? Ha ha ha ha.. come play with me and maybe a few other WoOkie's and we'll show you what a good sniper is!

Sort your arguments out first... A good CQC sniper is better at close range than an assault guy as he has the long range option aswell and you tell me what good assault is over long range? Therefore my argument is what does the sniper kit not have that the assault kit does?  Don't be a tool and say "zomfg a smoke grenadezor!!1!1!!!!11" what does the assault kit posses in tactical terms over the sniper kit?

tahadar wrote:

i dont know man, a high WLR to me means one/ a combo of the following:

1. you teamswitch
2. you're a kickass commander
3. you play with the same team of kickass players regularly, or you play against total nubs
4. you're a one-man army (this is only the case if you're a really really good pilot on wake island..)

i have my doubts over how one individual's pure skill factors into their WLR. the KDR, on the other hand, is an almost 100% player-skill based statistic, which is why I 'prefer' KDR over WLR. then there is also the fact that my WLR is utter crap, while my sniper rifle KDR isnt..

Heh, just yesterday I seem to remember having 13 kills before the jets had even got of the ground from the boats coming off the island.  One handedly I held off the whole USMC North assault, one man army FTW!

another nyte fanboy rideing the nytes nuts rollercoaster.

Jemme101 wrote:

Thats hard to tell by looking at your Stats, so I will have to take your word for it I guess.

Btw I just noticed that there is a difference between the Total Time Played and the Total Time Kit in my stats. I am missing 27 hours somehow

*cough* That's time waiting for respawn *cough*

GATOR591957 wrote:

Gentlesouljah.e wrote:

Its been my opinion for a while that if your a sniper and have less then or barely a 2/1 KDR, then you my friend are not a good sniper. These idiots like nyte can shoot well and what not and sure hes good. Now im not saying hes not good but when you die almost as many times as you kill your really not helping your team, as your loseing tickets also for your own side. Snipers were never meant to be played like supoort or medic or assault. I typcially just move to where ever the action is on the map and find a good spot a bit aways from the action. but get close enough so that I know whats going on and i can clearly see the heads of enemys.

I just cant see why players who claim to be so good with a sniper rifle barely have decent KDR's with the kit. Just because you can shoot well doesnt mean your always helping your team. Now I know some of you are saying its not about winning...well your wrong it is. The whole point of all your efforts in the round is to win and maintain a decent KDR at least 3/1 or higher with a sniper kit. Because you kill some guy 3 times and only die once....thats 3 tickets less for them and only 1 less for your team.

So while players like nyte and w/e else are good shots with a rifle alot of the time there not helping much.

I disagree.  I snipe a lot and if I see a flag has just changed I will go down and attempt to reaquire the flag.  In doing that I place myself in jeopardy for fresh spawns etc.  But it is what you should be doing as a team member.  I hate seeing a team of snipers that stay in their perches all day no matter how many flags we have or don't have as a team.  Your job as a team member is to help the team in whatever aspect you can, period.  With that comes deaths.  If your worried about your K/D ratio you are not a team player.

While I agree with your contention that it's the duty of every player to do what is in the best interests of the team, I disagree with your implication that snipers need to take flags in order to fulfill this obligation.  Only in specific dire circumstances is this a requirement.  What follows is material from a previous post I made some time ago, but it's sufficiently applicable to this discussion to warrant reposting in here.

Many people go on and on bitching about snipers and lamenting how they do little for their teams because they don't cap flags or aren't in the thick of the action.  For them, the principal goal of the game seems to be accruing lots of points and flag captures, and they seem to be arguing that that is what wins games too.  Let me state for the record, it isn't.  In the right circumstances, capping flags can be of value in helping your team win, but ONLY in certain circumstances, and ONLY in a limited number of ways.  First, it can eliminate--or cause--ticket bleed, but to my knowledge ticket bleed only occurs on maps where at least one flag is uncappable and it only occurs to the team with the uncappable flag; so long as the team without the uncappable flag maintains at least one base, they won't experience ticket bleed (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this).  Second, capping flags can deny the enemy armor/vehicle/air assets that spawn at those bases and, in some cases, provide your team with those selfsame assets.  But those assets only benefit your team if they're used and not left behind for a raiding enemy to grab and use to stir up chaos in your rear echelons.  Finally, capping flags helps contain the enemy and pin them to a limited area, allowing your team to mass forces and more effectively wipe them out as they spawn/attempt to break out.  All of these benefits, however, typically come at the cost of higher casualties; ask any knowledgeable military tactician and they'll tell you that in a battle between two equally armed and skilled forces, the attacker will almost always sustain 10-20% higher losses (that's probably why the attacking force in BF2 receives a 10% ticket bonus at the beginning of the game).  And a successful attack usually requires a larger force be committed to the offensive, leaving fewer troops to defend the bases you've already secured.  As a result, it becomes easier for roving enemies to slip behind your lines and retake flags (which wipes out any advantage you might have built up in trying to contain the enemy).  So, in summary, if the teams are equally matched, the side that does nothing but constantly attack and try to cap flags will lose more often than not.

When I play BF2, I have one goal--to help my team win.  And winning only occurs when you eliminate the enemy's total reserve of tickets before they eliminate your team's.  From a tactical perspective, that means simply that your team has to kill more--and die less--than the enemy team.  So it should be every team member's obligation and duty to achieve as high a kill-to-death ratio as possible while still performing their class roles to the best of their abilities; only in this way can your team win.  But not everyone on the team can maintain a positive k/d ratio--some classes will inherently be killed more because of the nature of their role, some players care only about racking up kills and being in the center of the melee, and other players just aren't very good--so it's up to the rest of the team to make up for this deficit through careful, skilled play and adherence to class role.  A skilled sniper can be particularly helpful in this regard.  This will almost surely mean that the score-per-minute/hour (and hence, total game score) of certain players and classes will be lower, but they'll be helping their team win through smart play.

Now, to the role of the sniper.  Like any class, the sniper has a number of advantages and disadvantages in the game; its the sniper's obligation to use those advantages to the betterment of the team, and to avoid situations that expose their disadvantages and put the team at risk.

Advantages: 1) a highly accurate weapon; 2) increased view distance and the ability to spot/target enemies at long range; 3) deadly traps (claymores) that can be set and left without the requirement of constant monitoring; 4) a silenced back-up weapon (the pistol); 5) effective camoflage that renders the sniper nearly invisible so long as they remain in the right environment and limit their movement.

Disadvantages: 1) A lower rate of fire than any other class; 2) a lower ammo load-out than any other class; 3) no  body armor; 4) as a class, snipers tend to be feared and hated, which means the minute you're spotted/identified, you're almost sure to attract an artillery strike and/or a number of enemy troops/vehicles/air assets anxious to add you to their kill tally.

The listed advantages make it clear what the sniper can do to best benefit his team: 1) Provide precision fire on important or dangerous infantry targets [i.e., other snipers, squad leaders, medics, supply, etc.].  2) Provide long-range interdiction fire on targets beyond the visual range of other classes.  While this sort of fire ideally eliminates or wounds the target, at the very least it causes panic and confusion, and forces the enemy to focus their attention on something other than what they want to be doing--killing your teammates, capturing your territory, or defending their own.  3) Spotting enemy targets for your teammates.  This is probably the sniper's most important duty, and it's the one that all-too-often is neglected.  A sniper's most dangerous weapon is not his rifle, it's his radio.  Alerting your team to the presence of enemies aids them in protecting themselves and helps bring down a lot more firepower on the target, increasing the likelihood that it will be taken out.  This is especially true for enemy armor; a sniper can be--and often is-- the best source of target info for friendly pilots and tankers.  4) Booby-trapping flags and high traffic areas to eliminate enemies and disrupt their plans/tactics.  Kill enemies this way once or twice and they become a lot more cautious and hesitant, giving your teammates valuable time to prepare or respond to threats.  5) Defend flags and assets from a position of high security that provides a good field of fire and excellent opportunity to place accurate shots on vulnerable attackers.  6) Take down or wound close-range targets without alerting the enemy to your presence.  Again, this can sow panic and confusion among unsuspecting enemies, and leave them scrambling for cover and madly searching the surroundings for you rather than focusing on activities that hurt your team.  In my opinion, a good sniper does all of these things, but he must do so while simultaneously avoiding being killed; if, after gaining experience with the kit, a sniper isn't maintaining at least a 3 to 1 k/d ratio, then I question the benefit he's providing to his team.

The listed disadvantages make it clear what the sniper must avoid in order to benefit his team: 1) Situations such as CQB that favor the ability to bring a high volume of fire in a short time.  In such situations, more often than not the sniper will be killed, costing the team a ticket. 2) Situations that don't allow the sniper to fire with a high expectation of accuracy.  You have a limited amount of ammo, and it's your duty to make the most of it by killing/wounding as many of the enemy as possible with each shot.  3) You have to avoid getting shot; you're easy to kill--which costs your team a ticket--and only one or two enemy rounds are needed to severely wound you, forcing you to seek medical aid (which usually takes you away from doing your job or forces the commander to spend a valuable asset that might better be used elsewhere--a supply drop--on you).  4) You have to avoid being seen. It's a lot more difficult for the sniper to perform his job effectively if the enemy knows where he is.  As a result, the sniper has to move slowly and cautiously--movement attracts the eye--and only when and as the situation requires.  Once spotted, the sniper has to use his best judgement on what to do--move to a position of safety so that he can continue performing his duties (the ideal option); move and hopefully lead the enemy into a trap; move and occupy as many of the enemy in a chase for as long as possible before being killed; or stay put and kill as many of the enemy as possible before they eventually eliminate him.

Just my two cents.

Not only is Books right and presents it in a wonderfully eloquent way - he also has the sniper skill to back this up.
I'm not that much of a writer,but I can make my point quite well aswell,I guess.

So,here's my idea of why snipers shouldn't rush to flags:

I mostly hang out at the south tip on Wake,spot every important enemy(boats,helis,there's a lot of shit heading this way.)for the jets and helis to intercept and kill a lot of boats and lone survivors in the ocean with the transport/sniper rifle,all this while also doing my routine of killing guys on the arty isle.
I also support the jets and raping helis that way,I take out the IGLA-guy as soon as he sits in it.
By wounding enemies I make it easier for the jets to take out more enemies with their bombs and cannon.

All teamwork with no reward in form of points,except for kill assists,which the "teamwork-classes" already get plus their additional teampoints.

When the US take one lousy flag the commander mostly tells me to leave the position,which I always ignore.
I'm not the only soldier in the PLA,right?

And this holding the position has paid off so many times for the team.
For example:South Base taken,Beach taken,stalemate between Airfield and Beach.
I am in the bunker on the south tip of the island and invite people into my squad so they attack South Base and from there attack the Beach.
If all is going down and the US have every flag I'm sometimes the last spawnpoint and hope for the whole team.
Rushing in then and trying to take the flag as a lone sniper against a whole army is just suicide and would seal the fate of the team.

Attacking as a sniper means to me:Staying in the back(long range is the optimum for the rifle,right?),letting people spawn on you and help out your guys by "pre-killing" the enemy(one hit,2 bars left,easy victim for assault).Not many teampoints there but a lot of teamwork.