LOL +1 for that man. Its a shame that Hezbollah does not fly under its own colors, if they did, their colors would be long bleached by now....SGT_Dicklewicz wrote:
what bugs me the most about all of this is that Israel is NOT at war with Lebanon.
The Cease fire is a joke IMO. Gives Hezbollah time to get more entrenched.
If it was my war to fight, I would tell all the lebanese people to leave and friggin Napalm the crap out of Hezbollah. Then make Iran rebuild the damn country.
Poll
Should the Israeli government pay to rebuild Lebanon?
| Yes | 47% | 47% - 63 | ||||
| No | 52% | 52% - 71 | ||||
| Total: 134 | ||||||
Source?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
To primacord:
It was WIDELY underreported that the SAME day that Israel invaded, BEFORE they did, Hezbollah was already firing rockets. Israel did not start bombing first. Besides Hezbollah has been indiscrimantly firing rockets into Israel for years ( well not on such a wide scale and it stopped for a couple of months prior to this).
Yeah yeah I know, I looked for it before, but I heard it on numerous talk radio shows (and not just fox news) NPR too!!!PRiMACORD wrote:
Source?AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
To primacord:
It was WIDELY underreported that the SAME day that Israel invaded, BEFORE they did, Hezbollah was already firing rockets. Israel did not start bombing first. Besides Hezbollah has been indiscrimantly firing rockets into Israel for years ( well not on such a wide scale and it stopped for a couple of months prior to this).
Confound it there is just too much crap to sift through so I don't expect you to believe me, just passing on what I heard.
The 2 soldiers are to be used as a bargaining chip because Israel has held thousands of Lebanese in prisons for about 3 decades. Prisoners that they refuse to release even though the U.N. told them to almost 30 years ago...{B-T}<babacanosh> wrote:
The two soldiers were just an escuse to have a war with lebabnon and try to eliminate hezzbollah(which they havent done). Now this peace treaty comes out and Isrial accepts it and its says nothing about the return od the two kidnapped soldiers.
Since Israel controls the media in the middle-east, and the stories that get published from there, you will never hear about the truth.
Fact of the matter is, Israel has been comitting crimes against humanity for decades so people are fighting back however they can. Israel deserves everything they get until they start complying with all the U.N. resolutions they have ignored, INCLUDING giving back the Lebanese prisoners rotting in their jails.
Heres a thought...why dont we go into everyone of these countries that either sanction terrorists,either through financial means...or political and kill everything that moves...wouldnt that solve the problem?...Hezbollah started this crap(again) and the nation that retaliates(Israel) should pay for that? you have got to be freaking kidding me! lets not forget that Hezbollah was elected to the seats they hold in Lebanon's government ...which means the majority of people voted them in...that makes each one of those ppl terroists in my book...and i say they should be given no quarter...no rights as human beings...when you strap explosives onto your body with the sole purpose of killing innocent women and childeren...you lose any right to be called a human being
Last edited by AvengingAngel (2006-08-19 03:46:14)
If i were a terrorist nation that had built multiple munition depots and THEN built hospitals, schools, Mousque's, etc, etc. on top of these depots. Then launched thousands of missles, let me repeat that THOUSANDS of misles in a one month period from those locations and then used the bodies of the dead and inoccent as propaganda saying that Israel is targetting civilian instalations for destruction, now i ask you is that terrorism on israels part or MORE terrorism at the hands of Hezbollah? As far as my previous response to your last idiotic post about the U.S supporting israel militarily and comparing that to syria supporting hezbollah, you are misinformed and extremley diluted and hence don't have the common sense that god gave a rubber tree plant. so as far as having an adault conversation with you, i doubt you have the propper equipment. SOOOOO, you STFU! Hows that for adault?sergeriver wrote:
Very classy answer. Launching a missile towards civilians is terrorism as blowing up a coffe shop with a bomb hidden in your case. If you want to have an adult discussion great, if u don't stfu.Sombo wrote:
Listen gOOber since when is Israel a terrorist state? pull your head outta your keister and start using a little common sense! And as far as your scientific calculator i got just the thing you can do with that!sergeriver wrote:
I'm pretty sure the hundreds of millions of dollars of arms and explosives given to Hezbollah are more than the millions given to Israel by US...duh? Oh, my scientific calculator appears to be broken. Shit.
Last edited by Sombo (2006-08-17 23:45:02)
I don't believe in the doctrine of similar response.
If someone comes at me with a bat, I'm going to shoot him. If someone steals a dollar from me, I'm going to bankrupt him. If a terrorist group or nation kills 100 U.S. citizens and I have the call, I'll kill 100,000.
I GUARANTEE you that if the Israels told the Muslim world it was going to be 1,000 to 1, and backed it up, the hostilities would end shortly... one way or the other for sure.
I'd send a little note to Lebanon, in particular Southern Lebanon, that says "Disarm completely and return our two soldiers immediately, or we drop two 2-ton bombs every hour until you do. Our intent is to kill 1,000 terrorist sympathizers per hour until our soldiers are returned unharmed. Citizens and government of Lebanon, if Hezbollah does not disarm, you should disarm them yourselves, because if not it is you who will suffer."
Then you have to have the will to do it. Women, children, whomever. Kill anything that breathes.
In the long run you SAVE more lives that you end because this shit stops happening.
If someone comes at me with a bat, I'm going to shoot him. If someone steals a dollar from me, I'm going to bankrupt him. If a terrorist group or nation kills 100 U.S. citizens and I have the call, I'll kill 100,000.
I GUARANTEE you that if the Israels told the Muslim world it was going to be 1,000 to 1, and backed it up, the hostilities would end shortly... one way or the other for sure.
I'd send a little note to Lebanon, in particular Southern Lebanon, that says "Disarm completely and return our two soldiers immediately, or we drop two 2-ton bombs every hour until you do. Our intent is to kill 1,000 terrorist sympathizers per hour until our soldiers are returned unharmed. Citizens and government of Lebanon, if Hezbollah does not disarm, you should disarm them yourselves, because if not it is you who will suffer."
Then you have to have the will to do it. Women, children, whomever. Kill anything that breathes.
In the long run you SAVE more lives that you end because this shit stops happening.
In all your points you're attacking the person who initated agression and not other people, aka civilians.Dersmikner wrote:
I don't believe in the doctrine of similar response.
If someone comes at me with a bat, I'm going to shoot him. If someone steals a dollar from me, I'm going to bankrupt him. If a terrorist group or nation kills 100 U.S. citizens and I have the call, I'll kill 100,000
If Israel responded with a precise ground attacks they wouldn't have gotten slammed about killing heaps of civilians.
What most of the Israel lovers forget is that regardless of there bombing Lebanon to shit, Hezbollah was firing rockets at full capacity till the last day.
In other words, they did fuck all and killed a lot of civilians doing...fuck all. Gj.
Thats reserved for Americans in American courst, unless you happen to be Mexican in which case you get a free pass.Bubbalo wrote:
No, collective punishment causes the punished to view the punisher as the attacker, and the terrorists as defenders/guardians. Further, regardless of effectiveness, doesn't it go against that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing you Americans are so fond of?
All I'm saying is Hezbollah used human Shields for propaganda and the world cries out for Israel to stop its aggressive behavior and its not even Israel thats the aggressor! Why is it we hold our allies to a higher standard than we do these dirt bag Islamic extremists? Why is it when Israel defends its borders against 3 hostile neighbors they "asked for it"? This whole notion that Israel is the bad guy here is just obscene!!! I agree with the Gent who said to make it a war where we kill 1000 of theirs for every 1 of ours. Sure alot of innocents would die and that is horribley tragic but peace talks, land for peace, resolutions and ignorance just isn't going to work! if anybody has a better idea that will work and isn't conceived from a totally Utopian basis then I'm all ears. These people don't want to negotiate, and they dont care if your arguing in these forums on there behalf they will kill you just as quick as someone who faces them on a battle field and celebrate over your headless corpse!
Sure, if terrorists pay to rebuild every bombed bus, cafe and family. Oops, you can't really rebuild the latter that easily.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-08-18 01:09:56)
They may not have 'wanted' to but they certainly didn't shed any crocodile tears or hesitate for one second to keep up the barrage. A lot of people on this forum speak of the Hezbollah 'human shield'. It's not exactly a very effective 'human shield' is it? I mean let's face it - they haven't been much good in the face of unbridled Israeli agression. Israel specifically targetted a UN outpost FFS. Also - the frequency of Hezbollah rocket attacks remained steady throughout the conflict, escalating in the final day: effective Israeli tactics? Don't make me laugh!AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
+1, You finally made a coherent point without being so angry. I agree, their tactics are a little forceful. But "sometimes" that is neccessary. I think they should have planned out their targets more carefully ( I think you can agree to that) And I think that the Lebanese should try and push Hezbollah out as well (which won't happen) but it sure would make identifying targets much more easier.Fld_Mrsl_Arts wrote:
i dont believe this to b the case, it was still a disproportionate use of force, or as you say tactics, it isnt the hezbollah tactics that need to change it is the israeli tactic that need changing, they are far to heavy handed, and that is why so many lebanese civi's died
Ok so one last question for you sir: Do you think that Israelis WANTED to kill civilians??
PS Does anyone find it a little odd that Israel have expended the lives of over 130 soldiers to get back the 2 kidnapped soldiers?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-18 03:38:22)
Neither can you rebuild Lebanese families 'that easily'.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Sure, if terrorists pay to rebuild every bombed bus, cafe and family. Oops, you can't really rebuild the latter that easily.
As for the topic question:
Why bother? Israel will only destroy their country again a few years down the line, they seem to be making a habit of it.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-18 03:40:44)
I have an idea, the US already pays Israel alot of money in "AID", why not give half of that to Lebanon to rebuild instead.
True it will mean Israel will only be able to build half the amount of cluster bombs they did before, but I'm sure they wont mind.
True it will mean Israel will only be able to build half the amount of cluster bombs they did before, but I'm sure they wont mind.
On the topic of human shields, Israel drops artillery from their own towns. All those rockets that fall? Aimed at Israeli tanks.
Can you say hypocrit?
Can you say hypocrit?
1) Seems pretty effective to me, they hide behind civilians and have their buildings and HQ's around hospitals and schools. How is that NOT an effective human/civilian shield, because than when someone targets them they are inadvertently targeting a civlian structure as well. Thats pretty much the definition of a human shield. I don't know, how do you see it?CameronPoe wrote:
1) It's not exactly a very effective 'human shield' is it? I mean let's face it - they haven't been much good in the face of unbridled Israeli agression.
2) Israel specifically targetted a UN outpost FFS.
3) effective Israeli tactics? Don't make me laugh!
4) Does anyone find it a little odd that Israel have expended the lives of over 130 soldiers to get back the 2 kidnapped soldiers?
2) I like how you left out the FACT that the post was being OVERRUN with HEZBOLLAH soldiers who were FIRING at the UN post. Israel DID NOT target that post BECAUSE it was UN, they targeted it because there was a mass of Hezbollah there, get your facts straight.
3) Effective Hezbollah tactics, hah use human shield whilst firing Rockets...Breaking News: "Hezbollah has fired today in excess of 180 rockets, only 2 Israeli civilians minorly injured." Dunno, Hezbollah isn't very effetive, that either means one of two things A: Israel is doing something right, or B: Hezbollah is incompetent.
and 4) The two soldiers wasn't the only reason of going in. You of all people should know that.
1. You use a human shield to deter your enemy from attacking you and causing moral outrage. Every arab in their right mind knows that Israel doesn't care much for such tactics. They're ruthless - they'll do whatever it takes to get at their enemy, even if it means taking a few civilians down with them. As such, the shield is largely useless (other than to beat Israel with on the international outrage side of things).AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
1) Seems pretty effective to me, they hide behind civilians and have their buildings and HQ's around hospitals and schools. How is that NOT an effective human/civilian shield, because than when someone targets them they are inadvertently targeting a civlian structure as well. Thats pretty much the definition of a human shield. I don't know, how do you see it?CameronPoe wrote:
1) It's not exactly a very effective 'human shield' is it? I mean let's face it - they haven't been much good in the face of unbridled Israeli agression.
2) Israel specifically targetted a UN outpost FFS.
3) effective Israeli tactics? Don't make me laugh!
4) Does anyone find it a little odd that Israel have expended the lives of over 130 soldiers to get back the 2 kidnapped soldiers?
2) I like how you left out the FACT that the post was being OVERRUN with HEZBOLLAH soldiers who were FIRING at the UN post. Israel DID NOT target that post BECAUSE it was UN, they targeted it because there was a mass of Hezbollah there, get your facts straight.
3) Effective Hezbollah tactics, hah use human shield whilst firing Rockets...Breaking News: "Hezbollah has fired today in excess of 180 rockets, only 2 Israeli civilians minorly injured." Dunno, Hezbollah isn't very effetive, that either means one of two things A: Israel is doing something right, or B: Hezbollah is incompetent.
and 4) The two soldiers wasn't the only reason of going in. You of all people should know that.
2. The area surronding the UN outpost was being hit with artillery all day and Israel, as I see it, basically said "Fuck it - blow up the outpost - we'll get the Hezzies and deal with the outrage afterwards", at which point to fired a missile at the outpost killing the UN employees, whose existence they were aware of, into tiny pieces. Deplorable.
3. I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Hezbollah. Their rockets are inaccurate pieces of shit. Israeli intervention isn't going to make them any more or less accurate. THe fact is the numbers fired have held steady.
4. You are correct - I was being a little tongue-in-cheek.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-18 09:35:55)
1) Sounds like its pretty effective, not in a deterrent, but in creating moral outrage, we're on the same page there.CameronPoe wrote:
1. You use a human shield to deter your enemy from attacking you and causing moral outrage. Every arab in their right mind knows that Israel doesn't care much for such tactics. They're ruthless - they'll do whatever it takes to get at their enemy, even if it means taking a few civilians down with them. As such, the shield is largely useless (other than to beat Israel with on the international outrage side of things).
2. The area surronding the UN outpost was being hit with artillery all day and Israel, as I see it, basically said "Fuck it - blow up the outpost - we'll get the Hezzies and deal with the outrage afterwards", at which point to fired a missile at the outpost killing the UN employees, whose existence they were aware of, into tiny pieces. Deplorable.
3. I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Hezbollah. Their rockets are inaccurate pieces of shit. Israeli intervention isn't going to make them any more or less accurate. THe fact is the numbers fired have held steady.
4. You are correct - I was being a little tongue-in-cheek.
2) Yes it was, but the UN sent out e-mails saying they were being run over, Hezbollah was about to take over the place. Sad that it was the Israelis that ultimately caused their deaths, but the truth is, and this may shock you, but they were already dead(Edit: Not to imply that they were dead when the Israeli bomb hit, but they would have been killed anyway by Hezbollah). My question: Why the hell were Hezbollah ATTACKING THE UN????
3) 10-4 Same page.
4) No problem
Last edited by AlbertWesker[RE] (2006-08-18 09:40:20)
Fuckers! YES of course!
Eh???-Solv3r- wrote:
Fuckers! YES of course!
1) It's not an effective human shield if Israel just bomb you anyway regardless of civilian casualties, as they have been doing - I think this is what Cameron was pointing out.AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
1) Seems pretty effective to me, they hide behind civilians and have their buildings and HQ's around hospitals and schools. How is that NOT an effective human/civilian shield, because than when someone targets them they are inadvertently targeting a civlian structure as well. Thats pretty much the definition of a human shield. I don't know, how do you see it?CameronPoe wrote:
1) It's not exactly a very effective 'human shield' is it? I mean let's face it - they haven't been much good in the face of unbridled Israeli agression.
2) Israel specifically targetted a UN outpost FFS.
3) effective Israeli tactics? Don't make me laugh!
4) Does anyone find it a little odd that Israel have expended the lives of over 130 soldiers to get back the 2 kidnapped soldiers?
2) I like how you left out the FACT that the post was being OVERRUN with HEZBOLLAH soldiers who were FIRING at the UN post. Israel DID NOT target that post BECAUSE it was UN, they targeted it because there was a mass of Hezbollah there, get your facts straight.
3) Effective Hezbollah tactics, hah use human shield whilst firing Rockets...Breaking News: "Hezbollah has fired today in excess of 180 rockets, only 2 Israeli civilians minorly injured." Dunno, Hezbollah isn't very effetive, that either means one of two things A: Israel is doing something right, or B: Hezbollah is incompetent.
and 4) The two soldiers wasn't the only reason of going in. You of all people should know that.
The fact is that most of he rocket firing positions were not located in towns, but on remote hilltops where Hezbollah could get a better vantage point. Hezbollah have been using human shields, sort of - Hezbollah militants have been hiding amongst civilians, but not, for the most part, lauching attacks from there.
2) The outpost was NOT being overrun with Hezbollah militia - they were NOT firing at the UN outpost, get your facts straight. There were Hezbollah forces in the area, but not attacking the UN base. They had been there for some time. As indicated by the email from a Canadian soldier based there, which has come under much scrutiny.
3) Hezbollah's tactics have been very effective. They have accomplished their goals perfectly. All defence analysts I have heard speaking on the situation have said that the incursion has been a disaster for Israeli forces and that Hezbollah's guerilla tactics have been immensely effective. Paul Beaver, who is a defence analyst I hold in quite high regard, said on BBC News 24 that "This is the most effective use of guerilla tactics we have seen for many years and the Israeli government has been caught offguard by it. They expected to go in there kill or capture a number of Hezbollah members and get their soldiers back within a few days". Even a suprisingly large number of Israeli soldiers have been extremely critical of the operations in Lebanon. Saying Hezbollah's tactics have been ineffective is a very badly informed statement. The increased number of rocket attacks, day by day, shows that Israel was not taking out the rocket launch sites that were their main objective - mainly because they were predominantly targeting built up areas, which is not where the launch sites were - which is precisely why they should pay for the reconstruction.
4) The Israeli government didn't have any other even vaguely legitimate reasons for going in to Lebanon. I believe they had all sorts of ulterior motives for going in to Lebanon, but why do you think they went in?
Umm no, Israel will just be back in Lebanon in a few years. Even if they did go in an totally tear apart Hezbollah; another group would just arise. Seriously Israel is just treading water and will never get anywhere if they just keep attacking the way they are. When you fight terrorism, especially with the way things are in the mideast, you can't fight it like any "conventional" war; you have to go in hit just what you need to hit and get out. Easier said then done I know I know, but seriously how long has this shit (and I mean all the shit, WAY BACK) been going on and with that progress made? Not much.
The only way to win this war is to wait for cultural change, make huge advancements in defense tech and have a show of good faith. That’s really hard to do though and I think just about any government that dose try to do that will probably be replaced by a more militant one due to the way almost all societies are. Just too human for our own good I guess.
So when will it all end? After a nice huge war with both sides bleeding out the ass; only then do assholes and everyone else look past all the horseshit and come to compromises.
(Respond if you want but I probably won’t seeing as how I never check this part of the forum)
The only way to win this war is to wait for cultural change, make huge advancements in defense tech and have a show of good faith. That’s really hard to do though and I think just about any government that dose try to do that will probably be replaced by a more militant one due to the way almost all societies are. Just too human for our own good I guess.
So when will it all end? After a nice huge war with both sides bleeding out the ass; only then do assholes and everyone else look past all the horseshit and come to compromises.
(Respond if you want but I probably won’t seeing as how I never check this part of the forum)
Last edited by tool03 (2006-08-18 10:05:49)
1) Yeah, we already pretty much agreed on that, I said it was effective because it caused moral outrage. Its a cowardly thing to do don't you think?Bertster7 wrote:
1) It's not an effective human shield................Hezbollah militants have been hiding amongst civilians
2) The outpost was NOT being overrun with Hezbollah militia - they were NOT firing at the UN outpost, get your facts straight. There were Hezbollah forces in the area
3) Hezbollah's tactics have been very effective.
4) but why do you think they went in?
2) Ummm, I guess we have different info, I read snips of the e-mails they sent out, it said they were being firing upon, maybe it was wrong or erroneous, however there were rockets being fired from an area very close to the UN post, hmmm looks like Hezbollah were using them as a shield as one article put it, maybe if hezbollah weren't such cowards, we wouldn't even be arguing about this. I'm probably wrong on this one, sorry.
3) Never said their tactics weren't effective, just their rockets, sorry if I implied or stated otherwise.
4) Ummm, to wipe out Hezbollah.............Which is a wonderful undertaking because Terrorists groups like these do not belong on this Earth the way they are operating.
Because of the UN and bullshit intl pressure. If people would quit whining, they would be able to get the job done, and at least destroy most of Hezbollah.tool03 wrote:
Seriously Israel is just treading water and will never get anywhere if they just keep attacking the way they are.
The job isn't worth doing if they continue to inflict the same proportion of civilian casualties (80-90%).AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:
Because of the UN and bullshit intl pressure. If people would quit whining, they would be able to get the job done, and at least destroy most of Hezbollah.tool03 wrote:
Seriously Israel is just treading water and will never get anywhere if they just keep attacking the way they are.
If they can't manage to get civilian casualties down to about 20-30% then any incursions will do more harm than good - by creating more sympathy for the terrorists and creating even more terrorists.