BF2S Forums I clearly don't get it.

US cannot simply just invade country that does trade with other countries because any economy instabilities could cause loss to other countries benefiting from trade. So US could get a slap on the wrist by bigger military might, yes Russia trades with IRAN.

I'll take Misinterpreting the Quran for $500

Bubbalo wrote:

Sgt.Zubie wrote:

So you think China and Russia just take it when the US starts nuking countries to keep Israel from being destroyed...Remember support for Israel runs DEEP here.

No, that's exactly my point:  No matter how much the US likes someone (in this case Israel), they will not risk firing nukes to defend anyone but themselves.

FOR ONCE Bubbalo I agree with you!!

There is no way our government is going to throw a nuke over Israel. . .not a chance

Israel may get weapons and money from us, but they will not get a nuke dropped in their defense! First of all, Israel has their own nukes, and dictates their own nuke policies.

Our nuke policy is clear as well, ONLY to be used in defense of the American people! Its clear doctrine in the US military. 

Its only a matter of time before the psycho Iranians get the nuke. . . then we will see who has balls and who doesnt!!!

Ikarti, could you please interpret these sayings from the Koran (Quran) for those of us whose reading skills must clearly, according to your interpretation, be lacking:

A little sexism to get things going.

Men are a step above women. 2:228

Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other. 4:38

====

Go along to get along? work and play well with others? Not the Muslim way.

Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from God. 3:27

Let those then fight on the path of God, who barter this present life for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he be slain or conquer, we will in the end give him a great reward. 4:7

O Beleivers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Of all men you will certainly find the Jews, and those who join other gods with God, to be the most intense in hatred of those who believe; and you shall certainly find those to be nearest in affection to them who say, We are Christians.' This, because some of them are priests and monks, and because they are free from pride. 5:85

Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's. 8:40

====

My favorite. If you don't believe like we believe, it's time to grease your ass, cause God told us to.

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth. 9:29

God, you are our protector: give us victory therefore over the infidel nations. 2:286

See my favorite is "and those who forbid not what god and his Apostle (Muhammad) have forbidden..." Clearer it could not be. If they don't do what we say, what Muhammad said, if they don't forbid what this book and our prophet say to forbid, go ahead and smoke them out, they're just shit anyway.

It can't be clearer than "if they don't forbid what the prophet has forbidden, make war on them." How did I misinterpret that?

Can it be argued that the Old Testament has some simliar passages? Hell yes. The one in Leviticus about burning homosexuals and cutting off their heads is pretty damned lame, but if you read the NEW Testament Jesus says "you are released from those laws". It says not to eat meat and cheese in the same meal, but those aren't really the rules that ANY "Christian" follows, they follow the NEW testament.

I don't know where the "15 ... [crash] 10, yes 10" commandments are for Muslims, but I am under the impression that they don't have an "old law" and a "new law" like the Christians.

I believe in God but I don't believe in the Bible. Still, all in all, if you read the New Testament teachings of Jesus it's a fairly decent guide to living a straight up life. The guy was a star. Maybe Paul and all his "women don't grow your hair" and "exhort ye young men to be sober" stuff was ridiculous (hell he never even sat with Jesus, he just whipped up his own religion basically), but the 10 commandments are pretty fair when it all gets down to it.

If you just read what Jesus had to say, whether you believe the water into wine stuff or not, you've got a pretty good start at getting along with just about anybody. Don't kill. Don't steal. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Maybe I don't get the Muslim thing, and maybe (as you say) I'm misinterpreting things, but I can't find the "turn the other cheek" quote in the Koran. I find a lot of "smoke those Jewish bastards", but not much "eat dinner with the tax collector" type stuff.

Now what would truly work out for everyone is if some Muslim became the Second Prophet and took all the good stuff from the Koran (I'll admit I haven't found it yet but that might be from lack of looking), and cut out the "men deserve twice the portion of women for they are inferior to men" shit, and the "kill everyone who doesn't follow Muhammad, and any Muslim who doesn't kill those who don't follow Muhammad" crap.

So, I'm not saying you're stone wrong, but I'll need you to explain to me where at some point, like in Christianity, someone, some big bad, well-followed important person in the Muslim faith, came along and said "whoa, all that hate, all that killing, that's bullshit, let's love our neighbor as ourselves," and I'll need you to show me the "go along to get along" passages. AT the very least, show me where they said "grease the Jews" but didn't really mean it.

OR, YOU BECOME the next great Muslim prophet and convince the rest of them that all this "fuck them they aren't Muslims" shit needs to go, or they're all going to end up on the business end of a bunch of weaponry.

Last edited by Dersmikner (2006-08-15 07:34:47)

Ahmadinejad has been miss translated and miss quoted.
Translation of phrase "wiped off the map"
Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map"an English idiom which means to cause a place to stop existing.

Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, translates the Persian phrase as:
The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian" and "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:
This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.

On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime," he said.

In a June 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor Ethan Bronner concluded that Ahmadinejad had in fact said that Israel was to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole, Bronner said: "But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away." Bronner stated: "So did Iran's president call for Israel to be wiped off the map? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."

On June 15, 2006 Guardian columnist and foreign correspondant Jonathan Steele cites several Persian speakers and translators who state that the phrase in question is more accurately translated as "eliminated" or "wiped off" or "wiped away" from "the page of time" or "the pages of history", rather than "wiped off the map"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ah … and_Israel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what it comers down to is the translation of the original statement. Do you believe Westerners working for the government bias against Iran. Or do you believe the Middle eastern & western scholars translation of Ahmadinejad's speech? Its like everything in this climate we live in today. One side is twisting it to suit them, or both are twisting it. The over all result is that nothings credible these days. Works well when you are creating the largest smoke screen of all time.

oh for the record again, Iran still has not managed to make a nucular weapon...yet.

Dersmikner wrote:

I don't buy "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime"

The Jewish government wasn't legally elected? They stole power? They're an illegitimate "regime". Has there ever been a "legitimate" government that Iran can accept in Israel?

It's not like the "regime" is a bunch of usurpers who took over a legitimate government.

I call complete and total bullshit. They're clearly saying Israel needs to go away. Whether or not that's true is up for debate depending on your side of this deal, but let's not tiptoe around what was said.

So did America decide to "wipe Iraq off the map"?

Dersmikner wrote:

Ikarti, could you please interpret these sayings from the Koran (Quran) for those of us whose reading skills must clearly, according to your interpretation, be lacking:

Dersmikner, I'm assuming that you ctrl-c ctrl-v'd this from a web site. No Quran I've ever seen uses the loaded phrase "infidel" for example. It's a loaded English phrase with hostile connotations. The original word is a neutral term better translated as "non-Muslim".

Can you show us the web page where you found this stuff?

It's disappointing that you'd trust a web site without verifying yourself what is actually said in the Quran.

I'll go ahead and do the research for you.

Dersmikner wrote:

Men are a step above women. 2:228

My Quran actually says "Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree of advantage over them."

The passage is itself a continuation of a series of passages discussing rules for a divorce of marriage initiated by a husband. The phrase "but men have a degree of advantage over them" is within the context of this discussion. It is certainly not, as the page you've copied and pasted this from would imply, an unequivocal statement that men are "a step above" women. This is obvious to anyone reading the Quran.

Dersmikner wrote:

Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other. 4:38

That's funny, my Quran says this at 4:38: "And also those who spend their wealth in order to be seen of men, and believe not in God. Whoso taketh Satan for a comrade, a bad comrade hath he."

Anyway, let's turn to the Bible to see what gems of wisdom it has to offer:

THE BIBLE wrote:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." (I Cor. 14:34-36)

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (Timothy 2:8-15)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

That sounds more to me like "men are a step above women" than the previous misinterpretation and false quote from the Quran. I'm not suggesting that the Quran says that women are equal to men. Let's be realistic, the Quran and the Bible were written hundreds of years ago when the world was a different place. My point is to show that it's dangerous to ctrl-c ctrl-v stuff from random web sites without verifying it yourself.

Dersmikner wrote:

Let not believers take infidels for their friends rather than believers: whoso shall do this has nothing to hope from God. 3:27

My Quran: "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless it be that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking as it were security. Allah biddeth you beware only of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying." A sane person would read this as "Believer friends are preferable to non-believers, but if you do keep non-believers as friends, be sure to guard your faith. Don't be swayed by them to believe in something other than Allah."

Again, it's interesting that the site you got this from chooses to translate "people who aren't Muslim" as "INFIDELS". I can see why they did so, it makes Muslims seem so much more ANGRY.

Dersmikner wrote:

Let those then fight on the path of God, who barter this present life for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he be slain or conquer, we will in the end give him a great reward. 4:7

How very strange. My Quran at 4:7 says "From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share."  In fact, it seems to be saying that women deserve just as much as men. The Quran can certainly sound less and less sexist relative to the Bible if you choose the right quotes and translate it in a certain way. And vice versa.

Dersmikner wrote:

O Beleivers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Again, a very interesting interpretation. My Quran says this: "O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith indeed."

Your site's interpretation of "those who take Muslim faith as a joke" is "Jews or Christians", Dersmikner? Hmmm. A bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

Dersmikner wrote:

Of all men you will certainly find the Jews, and those who join other gods with God, to be the most intense in hatred of those who believe; and you shall certainly find those to be nearest in affection to them who say, We are Christians.' This, because some of them are priests and monks, and because they are free from pride. 5:85

Mine: "Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. "

Your translation says that Jews hate Muslims the most. Mine is in agreement with you that Jews are most hostile toward Muslims. The wording of yours goes on to imply that Christians are nearest in affection to the Jews. But the wording is terrible. The fact is that the Quran is saying that Christians have the most affection towards Muslims. It is saying a good thing about Christians, and praising the priests and monks for lacking pride (remember, pride is a sin to Christians).

So yours is half right. The other half is (wantonly?) misleading.

Dersmikner wrote:

Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's. 8:40

"That God may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers. Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return thereto then the example of the men of old hath already gone before them, for a warning. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for God. But if they cease, then lo! God is Seer of what they do."

A sane person would read this as "fight against persecution", in the same spirit as "give me liberty or give me death".

Dersmikner wrote:

My favorite. If you don't believe like we believe, it's time to grease your ass, cause God told us to.

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth. 9:29

My Quran: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in God nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which God hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. "

I looked up 3 different translations of that passage, and not one of them said "make war". They all said "fight". 'Fight' sure sounds a lot less hostile than 'make war', eh Dersmikner? Fight could mean "argue with" just as much as it could mean "punch in the face".

Dersmikner wrote:

God, you are our protector: give us victory therefore over the infidel nations. 2:286

Wow, another very "interesting" interpretation. My Quran at 2:286: "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

I read this as "please forgive us, don't make it too hard on us, and help us keep our Muslim faith if anyone stands against it." I'm curious to know how you get "give us victory over the infidel nations" from that.

Dersmikner wrote:

It can't be clearer than "if they don't forbid what the prophet has forbidden, make war on them." How did I misinterpret that?

Would you provide a passage number?

Dersmikner wrote:

I'll need you to explain to me where at some point, like in Christianity, someone, some big bad, well-followed important person in the Muslim faith, came along and said "whoa, all that hate, all that killing, that's bullshit, let's love our neighbor as ourselves," and I'll need you to show me the "go along to get along" passages.

I won't claim to be an expert on the Muslim world, but my guess is that the majority of Muslims believe in peace, and denounce killing and hatred. I would guess that most Muslims believe that the violent ones are fringe psychos who are not true Muslims. I would guess that the average Muslim doesn't read the Quran and think "death to Christians" just like the average Christian doesn't read the Bible and think "I should own slaves". That said, it would be hard to prove this without relevant polls, of which I know none. But I think we should make an honest attempt to understand the Quran before we denounce it.

This page seems like an interesting read: "Toward Understanding Muhammad: Some issues in peace and violence." I haven't gone through it yet, but at first scan it doesn't seem heavily biased in any direction.

Dersmikner wrote:

Wow. Best reply I've ever seen. Now THAT is discussion. +1 to you my man, wish I could do more.

I've actually got a copy of the Koran, bought it after 9/11, but I did lift those from a website because I'm at work. Of course, who knows that Simon and Schuester didn't monkey with the printed version themselves.

My take is that you can CERTAINLY find sexism, advocation of violence, and intolerance in the Old Testament, which I consider just as big a shitrag as the Koran. The whole thing is a "let's get those bastards who don't believe what we believe" book from Genesis through Malachi. Even God was mostly a tool in the Old Testament, to say nothing of his people.

I need to see something in the Koran that says "even if they don't believe what we believe, go along to get along" like we see in the New Testament. I need to see something that says "Non-Muslims are okay. Be a good neighbor." I just can't find it. In the New Testament Jesus preaches that you turn the other cheek, eat with the tax collector, blah, blah, blah. All I can see in the Koran is "fight against the non-Muslims". Whether you want to use the word Non-Muslim or Infidel, the gist of it is the same... rage against them that ain't us.

That's bad JuJu. I think the Old Testament was bad JuJu too, I just think that Jesus, or the legend thereof, brought some sanity to the deal and the Muslims are still stuck in the "God rain down fire on those bitches who don't believe what we believe, and if we have to take them out so be it" mode.

We can sit and read the Koran all day long, your version or mine, and it's pretty clear that the intent, irrespective of the number of people who don't follow the letter of their own law, is to shitcan those of us who aren't "believers".

I'm out on that whole deal, whether it's the KKK, the hardcore Religious Right, or the Muslims.

I was going to attempt to answer your question in this post..........but in my research I wondered where you got all of your misinformation.  Funny thing was doing even a google search on the Koran as you spell it,  I never found your source.  Maybe you should post it

Its apparent that this is a blatant attempt by you to spread misinformation, so I'd suggest that you try again, and do the research yourself since you have your Quran and all........LMAO.  Comments like yours must be the reason this............

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith indeed."

was written


Jusster

Jusster wrote:

Dersmikner wrote:

I've actually got a copy of the Koran, bought it after 9/11, but I did lift those from a website because I'm at work. Of course, who knows that Simon and Schuester didn't monkey with the printed version themselves.

I was going to attempt to answer your question in this post..........but in my research I wondered where you got all of your misinformation.  Funny thing was doing even a google search on the Koran as you spell it,  I never found your source.  Maybe you should post it

Found it. It appears without note of version or English translation. The guy posted this under the header "THE SAYINGS OF MOHAMMAD: THE VERSES THAT DO NOT PROMOTE PEACE". Judging from Google results this same list has clearly been ctrl-c ctrl-v'ed a million times in Internet forums.

I'd feel very comfortable wagering that the site's previous section, "THE SAYINGS OF MOHAMMAD: THE VERSES THAT PROMOTE PEACE", have been forwarded less frequently.

Last edited by The_Shipbuilder (2006-08-15 18:49:38)