Really simple....all social structures are pyramidal. Some are tall with a narrow base of the poorest members, so allowing slightly better opportunities for a greater number of it's people. Others have a very broad base where the great majority are expected to support the upper echelons. In either extreme, if the base support crumbles the pyramid collapses. In the case of the USSR (the latter example), the base separated into its original parts and was no longer able to sustain the overall structure. IMO US society is close to the other extreme, (former example), and, as we all know from our physics studies, the downward force is more concentrated on a smaller surface area. The powers in the US should take note of this model and ensure that their base groups of people are well looked after and healthy, otherwise........
My great grandmother on my mothers side was from Russia, she was a great lady that had some good cooking' & a butt load of neighborhood cats. She loved Reagan & had a letter from him thanking her for becoming an American citizen & for loving America with all her heart.
She lived to see the Berlin wall come down which was a secret desire of hers that she let me know of before it happened. She was a religious woman that loved God & Jesus but she never mentioned being a Christian.
She was in Russia in the time of the rise of Stalin, her father who was an inventor discovered how to make the first porcelain that had gritty gray speckles thru it.
They fled too Germany when this happened, they lost all their money & started over.
Then he invented the first stainless steel enamel for kitchen utensils, then Hitler came to power.
They fled to America, again losing mostly everything, but compared to everywhere else great grandmother said no place is better than America because people are free to pursue their hearts desire if they worked hard.
We have it so good here that most take for granted.
I never had the chance to ask them such questions which makes me mournful that so much information is lost forever, I was 9 when she passed away.
I think it is because the people changed the government & put extreme pressure on it too change, and they were receptive because they are just like us at heart. They live, they love, they eat! McDonald's maybe a factor
Anyways I've taken us too far off of topic, please continue... why did it collapse?
I want an in depth answer, someone please take the time.
She lived to see the Berlin wall come down which was a secret desire of hers that she let me know of before it happened. She was a religious woman that loved God & Jesus but she never mentioned being a Christian.
She was in Russia in the time of the rise of Stalin, her father who was an inventor discovered how to make the first porcelain that had gritty gray speckles thru it.
They fled too Germany when this happened, they lost all their money & started over.
Then he invented the first stainless steel enamel for kitchen utensils, then Hitler came to power.
They fled to America, again losing mostly everything, but compared to everywhere else great grandmother said no place is better than America because people are free to pursue their hearts desire if they worked hard.
We have it so good here that most take for granted.
I never had the chance to ask them such questions which makes me mournful that so much information is lost forever, I was 9 when she passed away.
I think it is because the people changed the government & put extreme pressure on it too change, and they were receptive because they are just like us at heart. They live, they love, they eat! McDonald's maybe a factor
Anyways I've taken us too far off of topic, please continue... why did it collapse?
I want an in depth answer, someone please take the time.
Last edited by TrollmeaT (2006-08-12 03:29:28)
Oh yeah, because it's not like attacking Islamist terrorists helps them in areas like Chechnya. Oh, wait............ATG wrote:
I believe somewhere in the background in our curret war the Bears hand is involved, either through funding, intel. or arms.
The reason the USSR collapsed is:
For the Soviet Union, power ment everything so her Red Army got 60% of the Unions incoming and gave around 30 to 35% to the Economy. After the lost in Afghanistan , the Soviet Union had a weakend Army and had no money to replace her soldiers becasue all the money went into the war with Afghanistan. The stores were property of the Kremlin, not the people and food was scarce so the stores made little money. The disaster of Chernobyl(or whatever you spell it)had little to do with the USSR because it was not in USSR. It had its effects but not great effect. When the Wall came down in '89 the USSR had little money and had no chioce to give up.
For the Soviet Union, power ment everything so her Red Army got 60% of the Unions incoming and gave around 30 to 35% to the Economy. After the lost in Afghanistan , the Soviet Union had a weakend Army and had no money to replace her soldiers becasue all the money went into the war with Afghanistan. The stores were property of the Kremlin, not the people and food was scarce so the stores made little money. The disaster of Chernobyl(or whatever you spell it)had little to do with the USSR because it was not in USSR. It had its effects but not great effect. When the Wall came down in '89 the USSR had little money and had no chioce to give up.
Last edited by _NL_Lt.EngineerFox (2006-08-12 06:25:34)
- Superior Mind
- (not macbeth)
- +1,755|6936
I miss those ol' commy bastards...those were the good old days. Now's who our enemies? Arabs? WTF! Russians are so much cooler. CCCP!
Dolgni dratsya kak bratya. Bratya v arugia.
Dolgni dratsya kak bratya. Bratya v arugia.
Last edited by Superior Mind (2006-08-12 06:27:46)
Last time I checked, Chernobyl was in Ukraine, and Ukraine was part of the USSR._NL_Lt.EngineerFox wrote:
The reason the USSR collapsed is:
For the Soviet Union, power ment everything so her Red Army got 60% of the Unions incoming and gave around 30 to 35% to the Economy. After the lost in Afghanistan , the Soviet Union had a weakend Army and had no money to replace her soldiers becasue all the money went into the war with Afghanistan. The stores were property of the Kremlin, not the people and food was scarce so the stores made little money. The disaster of Chernobyl(or whatever you spell it)had little to do with the USSR because it was not in USSR. It had its effects but not great effect. When the Wall came down in '89 the USSR had little money and had no chioce to give up.
Lol @ this thread. Especially the headline. Mother America lol.
The USSR collapsed because it failed to deliever a good standard of living to the masses, imo.
Whats Russia like today Wasder?
Whats Russia like today Wasder?
The country is still fucked up in many areas, but things are getting better each year. Among the most disturbing trends is a negative death/birth ratio. We're also #2 in traffic accidents deaths and #1 in terms of children/teenagers smoking and somewhere in top 5 in terms of them drinking.
Thanks to high oil/natural gas prices we managed to survive the 1998 crisis and now economy is slowly growing.
Democracy is not exactly what we have now, with one party totally dominating the parliament. That party is not old, just about 3 years now. All they said in their election campaign was "We are with the president!" Suppose that's just why they've won, as Putin is supported by 70% of population.
But we don't feel unfree. I can go where I want, I can speak what I want and stuff... In fact, we have one of the most democratic constitutions in the world.
The state television is very biased and full of propaganda, but there are other channels too.
The interesting fact about Russia is that software piracy is still tolerated here. There are tons of DVD's with 1-10 new movies on each, costing 100 rubles (about $3,5), same about games and music. And if you join a LAN in Moscow you'll get cheap internet connection and also 5 terrabites of everything (I mean everything) to download for absolutely free.
I can tell you more, just ask more specific questions.
Thanks to high oil/natural gas prices we managed to survive the 1998 crisis and now economy is slowly growing.
Democracy is not exactly what we have now, with one party totally dominating the parliament. That party is not old, just about 3 years now. All they said in their election campaign was "We are with the president!" Suppose that's just why they've won, as Putin is supported by 70% of population.
But we don't feel unfree. I can go where I want, I can speak what I want and stuff... In fact, we have one of the most democratic constitutions in the world.
The state television is very biased and full of propaganda, but there are other channels too.
The interesting fact about Russia is that software piracy is still tolerated here. There are tons of DVD's with 1-10 new movies on each, costing 100 rubles (about $3,5), same about games and music. And if you join a LAN in Moscow you'll get cheap internet connection and also 5 terrabites of everything (I mean everything) to download for absolutely free.
I can tell you more, just ask more specific questions.
the USSR collapsing? thats what we WANTED you to think!
I think the most disturbing thing in Russia now is that they are expending the life time of their old nuclear power plants in the west...
The most important factor in my opinion was the change in political system to embrace certain ideals of capitalism. The approach taken by Gorbachev was too rapid and did not work well, at least not from a communist stance. The gradual economic acceptance of capitalism by China has been much more successful, if the USSR had taken a simillar path it would probably still be a communist state.
Glasnost, another of Gorbachev's ideas, meaning literally openess, led to the climate of fear which kept the USSR working to collapse. This prompted the fall of the Soivet Union.
Glasnost, another of Gorbachev's ideas, meaning literally openess, led to the climate of fear which kept the USSR working to collapse. This prompted the fall of the Soivet Union.
THey spent so much money on Defense trying to stay ahead of the US they went bankrupt of sorts. That is the very very short version.
well... i'm russian here, 31 years old, seeing so many posts of "well informed" ppl here i'd post my thoughts on the matter if you don't mind.
let me apologise for my poor english in advance, it is (obviously) not my native language.
to start with i'd like to bash some popular myths re "Mother Russia" and it's supposed collapse:
1) Russia collapsed - nope, it was Soviet Union that ceased to exist.
2) SU couldn't bear the ongoing economical pressure by US and its NATO pets - nope, the natural and human recourses of former USSR where more than adequate to continue so-called Cold War for many many years - to these days for sure.
3) people of SU couldn't live in that "surely-and-uterly-bad communist country" anymore and overthrew their government - oh, c'mon, tell me just how could they do that with allmighty KGB and stuff operating? anybody who was even suspected of not following certain "ideals" and dared to express their views in public was immediately "showed what's right" in a most convincing way.
so, what happened then?
let me give you some background info. as you may know (history lessons anyone?) SU was a centalized economy - and more importantly, it was a CLOSED economy. any trade whatsoever with the rest of the world was minimised to absolutely necessary bits. "why the hell?", - you may ask, - "trade is what keeps this world relolving!". because this was the ONLY way to keep the economy in this country effective. yeah, yeah, i know, this does sound like a bullshi*t to those of you who have studied even basics of modern economics. but, did you notice, i said "MODERN" - and that's the answer here. Soviet Union didn't operate by the rules of modern economics.
i'll explain: all USSR' trade goods (save raw resources, like oil or wood, and maybe some exotic stuff) wouldn't have been able to withstand the competition on the world market - that's because it costs helluwa more to produce even a simple t-shirt in here compared to its production cost in china for example. russia is bloody huge, everything is split by thousands of kilometers - that means looong roads and travel time for almost anything to reach it's destination. multiply that by one of the coldest climats on this planet - and you'll get the idea. agriculture is obviously affected by that climat too - chineeze harvest twice or even thrice a season when russian farmers do only once (if they are lucky to harvest anything at all). plus, let's see, what does average chineese worker needs to be comfortable? - trousers, sandals, t-shirt (optional) and a roof above his head in case of rain. compare this to what russian guy needs - a warm (VERY warm) coat, pants, shoes, hat, a stout hut with thick walls and a railroadwagon-size supply of firewood to last him through the winter (that of course is a joke mostly, just to make you understand the idea) - basically, we live in a fridge here so to say.
so the only way to survive was to close the internal market. this means most goods had to be produced internally and generally where more expencive and of lower quality compared to the world market. so how on earth could such a shitty economy support a "superpower" like Soviet Union? well, you should have guessed by now - at a cost of personal welfare of the citisens - yeah, yeah, those poor brainwashed and scared people under watchfull eye of Communist Party of Soviet Union.
so, now isn't it obvious what caused that collapse of USSR? i don't know for sure, but i think there must have been some outside support for what happened, but anyway: Mr. Gorbachev started it and Mr. Yeltsin and his crew of wannabe-democrats finished the job - opened the oister. Onse opened soviet economy collapsed - and that was just what the West wanted. smaller countries (Baltics, Ukraine and so on) immediately brought out old grudges and decided they would be better off on their own. After that a kinda pseudo-democratic "wild market" pwnage ensued and most of former state property was grubbed by people the world now knows as "new russian businessmen".
now, russian economy is steadily moving to what the rest of the world wants it to be - an oil/gas pump. I can't really say if it's good or bad - it's logical i guess. The really sad part is it seems that current economy cannot support the huge population here - unemployment is terrible and more and more yong people turn to drinking and drugs, simply becase they have no perspective in life.
to conclude: Margaret Thatcher said once (don't remember exact wording, please correct me if i'm wrong) - "In Russia we only need oil and gas pipelines plus 20 mil people to service those". well, looks like we are going in that direction.
edit: typo's
let me apologise for my poor english in advance, it is (obviously) not my native language.
to start with i'd like to bash some popular myths re "Mother Russia" and it's supposed collapse:
1) Russia collapsed - nope, it was Soviet Union that ceased to exist.
2) SU couldn't bear the ongoing economical pressure by US and its NATO pets - nope, the natural and human recourses of former USSR where more than adequate to continue so-called Cold War for many many years - to these days for sure.
3) people of SU couldn't live in that "surely-and-uterly-bad communist country" anymore and overthrew their government - oh, c'mon, tell me just how could they do that with allmighty KGB and stuff operating? anybody who was even suspected of not following certain "ideals" and dared to express their views in public was immediately "showed what's right" in a most convincing way.
so, what happened then?
let me give you some background info. as you may know (history lessons anyone?) SU was a centalized economy - and more importantly, it was a CLOSED economy. any trade whatsoever with the rest of the world was minimised to absolutely necessary bits. "why the hell?", - you may ask, - "trade is what keeps this world relolving!". because this was the ONLY way to keep the economy in this country effective. yeah, yeah, i know, this does sound like a bullshi*t to those of you who have studied even basics of modern economics. but, did you notice, i said "MODERN" - and that's the answer here. Soviet Union didn't operate by the rules of modern economics.
i'll explain: all USSR' trade goods (save raw resources, like oil or wood, and maybe some exotic stuff) wouldn't have been able to withstand the competition on the world market - that's because it costs helluwa more to produce even a simple t-shirt in here compared to its production cost in china for example. russia is bloody huge, everything is split by thousands of kilometers - that means looong roads and travel time for almost anything to reach it's destination. multiply that by one of the coldest climats on this planet - and you'll get the idea. agriculture is obviously affected by that climat too - chineeze harvest twice or even thrice a season when russian farmers do only once (if they are lucky to harvest anything at all). plus, let's see, what does average chineese worker needs to be comfortable? - trousers, sandals, t-shirt (optional) and a roof above his head in case of rain. compare this to what russian guy needs - a warm (VERY warm) coat, pants, shoes, hat, a stout hut with thick walls and a railroadwagon-size supply of firewood to last him through the winter (that of course is a joke mostly, just to make you understand the idea) - basically, we live in a fridge here so to say.
so the only way to survive was to close the internal market. this means most goods had to be produced internally and generally where more expencive and of lower quality compared to the world market. so how on earth could such a shitty economy support a "superpower" like Soviet Union? well, you should have guessed by now - at a cost of personal welfare of the citisens - yeah, yeah, those poor brainwashed and scared people under watchfull eye of Communist Party of Soviet Union.
so, now isn't it obvious what caused that collapse of USSR? i don't know for sure, but i think there must have been some outside support for what happened, but anyway: Mr. Gorbachev started it and Mr. Yeltsin and his crew of wannabe-democrats finished the job - opened the oister. Onse opened soviet economy collapsed - and that was just what the West wanted. smaller countries (Baltics, Ukraine and so on) immediately brought out old grudges and decided they would be better off on their own. After that a kinda pseudo-democratic "wild market" pwnage ensued and most of former state property was grubbed by people the world now knows as "new russian businessmen".
now, russian economy is steadily moving to what the rest of the world wants it to be - an oil/gas pump. I can't really say if it's good or bad - it's logical i guess. The really sad part is it seems that current economy cannot support the huge population here - unemployment is terrible and more and more yong people turn to drinking and drugs, simply becase they have no perspective in life.
to conclude: Margaret Thatcher said once (don't remember exact wording, please correct me if i'm wrong) - "In Russia we only need oil and gas pipelines plus 20 mil people to service those". well, looks like we are going in that direction.
edit: typo's
Last edited by Shahter (2006-08-14 23:56:53)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shahter that sounds like your on the right track... I've never been to russia but I really want to go someday...
So great to see another Russian guy on the forums!
Добро пожаловать на форум, Шахтёр!
Добро пожаловать на форум, Шахтёр!
slightly OT:cpt.fass1 wrote:
I've never been to russia but I really want to go someday...
well, you are welcome to see what's left in here - and be assured, there's a lot left to behold. if you want to see Russia though, not just Moscow (obviously that's the first place tourists want to go to), make sure you go to some country stuff and smaller towns (take some tours maybe). you know, Moscow if the center of Russia, both commercial and cultural, its "heart" and its "face", but as it often happens it also bears the most ugly traces of different historic periods the country has gone through - you know, everything has left its mark in Moscow and some of those things look completely out of place. oh, and all that got covered with a thick layer of "californication" over the last decade - personally, i detest that change the most. i've been living in Moscow for almost all my life and now i can tell that it really looks like a bizzare salad - some things just don't mix well, and Moscow is a good example of that.
one place i'd specifically suggest you visit (if you can), especially if you are interested in WW2, is Volgograd (former Stalingrad). that city is like... well... a huge memorial to both russian pride and sorrow. you know, i don't really consider myself "hardcore patriot", but when i first came to Volgograd i felt like something grew inside of me, something that made me think a lot about grand stuff that happened in the past.
okay, enough OTing already, work time - there are critically wounded ragdolls scattered all over Karkand...
Last edited by Shahter (2006-08-15 11:28:09)
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.