What grievances do the extremists have that we can solve?
I don't live my life in fear. I live my life with awareness. I am an American infidel. There isn't enough room to put "100% American Infidel as perceived by radical extremist Muslims i.e. terrorists" i would figure you could interpret it somewhat openly and not so narrowly.CameronPoe wrote:
We need to deal with the root causes of the problems. It is clear to me why certain groups in other parts of the world hate us: the fact we have exploited them in the past or are currently exploiting them and their resources, the fact that we have supported unpopular puppet governments and dictatorships in their countries, the fact we support an oppressive and extremely militant country (Israel) which happens to be their arch-nemesis and the fact that we choose to largely overlook the plight of Palestinians, who are paying the price for European war crimes.Colfax wrote:
The minute you rule out the possibility is the minute it happens. Just like the TV show "It Could Happen Tomorrow" They did i piece on the Levey's in New Orleans failing. And before they could even air the episode along cam Katrina and down came the walls. Man who thought airplanes would run into the WTC. No one.
With all the added security we have in the U.S. people still get in. Just like 11 egyptians were headed to some college in the U.S. and i think what 5 or 6 of them made it and the others went MIA from the airport.
To believe you are invincible is to give a child a loaded gun and say don't pull that trigger. There will be another attack on a western culture and the questions is where and when. To deny that is purely ludicrous.
As long as these problems persist there is sure to further attacks on the west. Let's deal with them when they occur, to live our lives in fear is hardly 'freedom'. We can just as easily be hit by a bus tomorrow. Our governments should be vigilant and try and prevent attacks occurring. We should be dealing with their rightful grievances rather than resorting to strong arm tactics, intransigence and racism-incitement (against arabs). To fight violence with violence is not the answer. Especially when violence will only further fuel the fire of extremism over there.
PS Why include the word 'infidel' then? A marked reference to how you perceive muslims to perceive you.
Peace doesn't solve anything it just gives one side time to rearm and get ready to attack again. Fighting violence with violence is the only answer. The violence WON'T STOP!!
Your comment about walking through the West Bank area. I could walk through East St. Louis (town near me)in the day time and most likely be okay. But if i were to walk through at night time on the same day i might not be seen the next morning.(mugged, murdered, beatin down, shot...) that's just because I'm white.
Last edited by Colfax (2006-08-09 07:16:40)
We'll have to agree to disagree on the violence issue. You're obviously entitled to your opinion as am I. All I'll say is that you can bomb people but you can't bomb an ideology. Eradicating the things that enable the ideology to spread are in my opinion a wiser course of action.Colfax wrote:
I don't live my life in fear. I live my life with awareness. I am an American infidel. There isn't enough room to put "100% American Infidel as perceived by radical extremist Muslims i.e. terrorists" i would figure you could interpret it somewhat openly and not so narrowly.
Peace doesn't solve anything it just gives one side time to rearm and get ready to attack again. Fighting violence with violence is the only answer. The violence WON'T STOP!!
Your comment about walking through the West Bank area. I could walk through East St. Louis (town near me)in the day time and most likely be okay. But if i were to walk through at night time on the same day i might not be seen the next morning.(mugged, murdered, beatin down, shot...) that's just because I'm white.
I have many differing opinions on what should happen in the Middle East. As far as the US is concerned, I wonder if we shouldn't just pull out. I see a lot of similarity between the Iraqies and us, as colonists. I realize circumstances are different, etc etc, but still.....First of all, we wanted to be away from Britain because they wouldn't let many people practice their religion freely. Also, once the colonies were founded, Britain was ruling with a heavy hand (not unlike the US today?). So we told them they could take their tea tax and shove it.
The difference between then and now (and I believe someone said it earlier, I just don't remember who) is that we could beat Britain, but now no one in the Middle East has the power to beat us, save with nukes.
But at the same time, I realize that (as our politicians say) pulling out now would make the terrorists think they had won. There's two problems with that: 1) The US would get their ego hurt and cry, and 2) The terrorists would use that as propoganda within their own ranks, become bolder, strike more often, etc.
Overall, as far as the US occupation is concerned, we shouldn't have gotten involved (militarily, that is) in the first place, but at this point, it would do more damage to withdraw than to stay.
Now, on to the war.
I've heard some pretty f'king stupid ideas here so far, and I sincerely hope they weren't serious.
1) Nuking the whole goddam place.
--That's exactly what we're trying to AVOID doing, that's the kind of thing that happens when all diplomacy and military intervention fails, and I don't really want to be the person that pushes the button to kill millions of people (although I bet there are dumbshits out there that would)
2) Moving the Isralies somewhere else.
--No. Although this idea is not as bad as the first one, it still wouldn't work. Where would we put them? Alaska? The Sahara Desert? Some island chain in the middle of the Pacific (if there was even one big enough to hold them)? The point is that all remotely hospitable land has already been occupied by some nation or other. The reason this whole thing started was the alles gave the Jews somewhere to live (i.e. they carved Israel out of other countries) after the Holocaust of WWII. They shipped all the people that used to live there out, and it was war. Doing the same thing again would only cause more people to be pissed at the Isralies.
I think it all comes down to religion. To the radical muslims, which there are quite a few of, the West is essentially the root of all evil. These muslims feel like (because of their religion) they have to go out and convert all the unbelievers. They've been trying to do this ever since Mohammed told them to.
And they try to convert by any means necessary. For the curious: Go out and look up what Muslims have done to conquered countries (like when they conquered Spain). Go look up what happens to a Muslim that decides to stop being a Muslim. It's like the Spanish Inquisition, in reverse. (which, by the way, the Spanish inquision started after the Europeans took back Spain from the Muslims).
For guests it's one thing (I think, i'm not a die-hard muslim). That's why people like CameronPoe and I can visit Muslim countries and not be killed. (The other thing is the fundamentalists are usually not the ones roaming the streets that you actually get to talk to). However, for conquered countries it's a different story. The Muslim Empire (when there was one) conquered something like 2/3 or more of Eurasia. That means they controlled almost half of the land mass of the WORLD. And what did they do to the citizens of those countries? They tortured them until they either converted or died.
Like I said, this was in the distant past. If they tried to do something like that today the rest of the world would see it and join up against the Muslim country (yes, even France). And IF that happened, it would be much easier than fighting hit-and-run-use-guerilla-tactics-hide-in-hospitals terrorists. It would be a real war, between two immensely powerful alliances, and thousands, maybe millions would die. So let's hope that doesn't happen.
I've kinda strayed from the point. The summary of those few paragraphs is that the Muslim religion requires that muslims go out and convert unbelievers (whether to do it peacefully or not is the difference between the radical muslims and the peaceful majority). Want proof? Read the Qu'ran. There are english translations, trust me.
So that's what needs to happen. Everybody just needs to chill out. How to get people to chill out is another matter, and if anyone can tell me that, well.....good for you.
The difference between then and now (and I believe someone said it earlier, I just don't remember who) is that we could beat Britain, but now no one in the Middle East has the power to beat us, save with nukes.
But at the same time, I realize that (as our politicians say) pulling out now would make the terrorists think they had won. There's two problems with that: 1) The US would get their ego hurt and cry, and 2) The terrorists would use that as propoganda within their own ranks, become bolder, strike more often, etc.
Overall, as far as the US occupation is concerned, we shouldn't have gotten involved (militarily, that is) in the first place, but at this point, it would do more damage to withdraw than to stay.
Now, on to the war.
I've heard some pretty f'king stupid ideas here so far, and I sincerely hope they weren't serious.
1) Nuking the whole goddam place.
--That's exactly what we're trying to AVOID doing, that's the kind of thing that happens when all diplomacy and military intervention fails, and I don't really want to be the person that pushes the button to kill millions of people (although I bet there are dumbshits out there that would)
2) Moving the Isralies somewhere else.
--No. Although this idea is not as bad as the first one, it still wouldn't work. Where would we put them? Alaska? The Sahara Desert? Some island chain in the middle of the Pacific (if there was even one big enough to hold them)? The point is that all remotely hospitable land has already been occupied by some nation or other. The reason this whole thing started was the alles gave the Jews somewhere to live (i.e. they carved Israel out of other countries) after the Holocaust of WWII. They shipped all the people that used to live there out, and it was war. Doing the same thing again would only cause more people to be pissed at the Isralies.
I think it all comes down to religion. To the radical muslims, which there are quite a few of, the West is essentially the root of all evil. These muslims feel like (because of their religion) they have to go out and convert all the unbelievers. They've been trying to do this ever since Mohammed told them to.
And they try to convert by any means necessary. For the curious: Go out and look up what Muslims have done to conquered countries (like when they conquered Spain). Go look up what happens to a Muslim that decides to stop being a Muslim. It's like the Spanish Inquisition, in reverse. (which, by the way, the Spanish inquision started after the Europeans took back Spain from the Muslims).
For guests it's one thing (I think, i'm not a die-hard muslim). That's why people like CameronPoe and I can visit Muslim countries and not be killed. (The other thing is the fundamentalists are usually not the ones roaming the streets that you actually get to talk to). However, for conquered countries it's a different story. The Muslim Empire (when there was one) conquered something like 2/3 or more of Eurasia. That means they controlled almost half of the land mass of the WORLD. And what did they do to the citizens of those countries? They tortured them until they either converted or died.
Like I said, this was in the distant past. If they tried to do something like that today the rest of the world would see it and join up against the Muslim country (yes, even France). And IF that happened, it would be much easier than fighting hit-and-run-use-guerilla-tactics-hide-in-hospitals terrorists. It would be a real war, between two immensely powerful alliances, and thousands, maybe millions would die. So let's hope that doesn't happen.
I've kinda strayed from the point. The summary of those few paragraphs is that the Muslim religion requires that muslims go out and convert unbelievers (whether to do it peacefully or not is the difference between the radical muslims and the peaceful majority). Want proof? Read the Qu'ran. There are english translations, trust me.
So that's what needs to happen. Everybody just needs to chill out. How to get people to chill out is another matter, and if anyone can tell me that, well.....good for you.
We can't solve grievances with the ultra-extremists - they are lost causes, but we can solve the obvious grievances of the moderates and extremists alike in a bid to prevent future generations being driven to extremism.Pug wrote:
What grievances do the extremists have that we can solve?
Sure, but what about the current problem...you know the one about the ultra-extremists? You know, the one that's got us all excited?CameronPoe wrote:
We can't solve grievances with the ultra-extremists - they are lost causes, but we can solve the obvious grievances of the moderates and extremists alike in a bid to prevent future generations being driven to extremism.Pug wrote:
What grievances do the extremists have that we can solve?
I've got their grievances swinging low.CameronPoe wrote:
We can't solve grievances with the ultra-extremists - they are lost causes, but we can solve the obvious grievances of the moderates and extremists alike in a bid to prevent future generations being driven to extremism.Pug wrote:
What grievances do the extremists have that we can solve?
Whats that supposed to mean? Theres just as much evidence that mohammed was a prophet as there is for FSM. Extremists will never stop fighting until everyone has converted to islam so there will never be peace.--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:
Wheres your proof mother fuckerJaMDuDe wrote:
Id solve it with a solar panel. And give an education to the rest of muslims so they can find out that muhammed was just on poppy seeds.
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.JaMDuDe wrote:
Whats that supposed to mean? Theres just as much evidence that mohammed was a prophet as there is for FSM. Extremists will never stop fighting until everyone has converted to islam so there will never be peace.--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:
Wheres your proof mother fuckerJaMDuDe wrote:
Id solve it with a solar panel. And give an education to the rest of muslims so they can find out that muhammed was just on poppy seeds.
Im afraid it'll have to be a case of containment and threat management. I don't have any magical perfect solution. I know what isn't the solution though.Pug wrote:
Sure, but what about the current problem...you know the one about the ultra-extremists? You know, the one that's got us all excited?CameronPoe wrote:
We can't solve grievances with the ultra-extremists - they are lost causes, but we can solve the obvious grievances of the moderates and extremists alike in a bid to prevent future generations being driven to extremism.Pug wrote:
What grievances do the extremists have that we can solve?
You can bomb the world to peices but you can't bomb it into peace.
We must separate two words here: muslin and extremist. These are not the same. While there is a minor % of muslin that have chosen to be extremists, the most of muslins are peaceful people that try to live their life as they can. This is like sayin:"Hey, all americans are fascists and conservative coz GWB is". This is not true, most americans probably are very upset with GWB exterior policies, so generalizing is never the right choice. Btw, I'm half jewish, I don't have personal interests defending muslins, only I think it's unfair to get'em all in the same bag.
Yep - you see my point. How do you deal with the current threat without perpetuating the violence? Whether what side your on, the clear fact is that Israel can kick their ass. If Israel kicks their ass, it continues and never ends. Both sides need to take a breath and begin reparations immediately.CameronPoe wrote:
Im afraid it'll have to be a case of containment and threat management. I don't have any magical perfect solution. I know what isn't the solution though.Pug wrote:
Sure, but what about the current problem...you know the one about the ultra-extremists? You know, the one that's got us all excited?CameronPoe wrote:
We can't solve grievances with the ultra-extremists - they are lost causes, but we can solve the obvious grievances of the moderates and extremists alike in a bid to prevent future generations being driven to extremism.
I do believe the only reasonable (aka most likely) option is Israel has a decisive, crushing victory. THEN, they should be forced into a more moderate position by heavy restrictions and war rebuilding effort for the entire arab world. What this does is bridges the gap a bit and begins to repave the road. In return, arabs need to back off. I however believe this as well to be fantasy.
The other option is no more Israel, and that's not plausible either...
The third option is to back off without a decisive victory and deal with the brush fires...which is what's been happening for how many years?
After everyone stops messing around with the Middle East we need to make it a better place - through aid - would that help lessen tensions?
I would solve it like this.
Fence off a big area in the desert. Put all the Arabs and all the Isrealies in there and let them fight it out until only one is left. You know there would only be one left at the end because if Israel won they wouldn't leave any Arabs alive, and if the Arabs won, they would fight amongst themselves until there was only one left. Once you have a victor, you prosecute that one for murder and war crimes.
"All the ME base are belong to us!"
Fence off a big area in the desert. Put all the Arabs and all the Isrealies in there and let them fight it out until only one is left. You know there would only be one left at the end because if Israel won they wouldn't leave any Arabs alive, and if the Arabs won, they would fight amongst themselves until there was only one left. Once you have a victor, you prosecute that one for murder and war crimes.
"All the ME base are belong to us!"
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.JaMDuDe wrote:
Whats that supposed to mean? Theres just as much evidence that mohammed was a prophet as there is for FSM. Extremists will never stop fighting until everyone has converted to islam so there will never be peace.--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:
Wheres your proof mother fucker
Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-08-09 08:17:29)
I like this idea.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
I would solve it like this.
Fence off a big area in the desert. Put all the Arabs and all the Isrealies in there and let them fight it out until only one is left. You know there would only be one left at the end because if Israel won they wouldn't leave any Arabs alive, and if the Arabs won, they would fight amongst themselves until there was only one left. Once you have a victor, you prosecute that one for murder and war crimes.
"All the ME base are belong to us!"
I follow him, and why the fuck am i not a terrorist and or radical ?JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.JaMDuDe wrote:
Whats that supposed to mean? Theres just as much evidence that mohammed was a prophet as there is for FSM. Extremists will never stop fighting until everyone has converted to islam so there will never be peace.
Stupid fck.
See, his followers are angry mean people Can you please show me where i said all muslims are terrorists?--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:
I follow him, and why the fuck am i not a terrorist and or radical ?JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.
Stupid fck.
Let's not make this another religion thread. All I'll say is you are being incredibly condescending towards followers of Islam when you yourself follow a religion that ravaged the middle ages with war upon war. Pot. Kettle. Black.JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.JaMDuDe wrote:
Whats that supposed to mean? Theres just as much evidence that mohammed was a prophet as there is for FSM. Extremists will never stop fighting until everyone has converted to islam so there will never be peace.
You would think Islam, seeing how Christianity was during it's dark ages, would emerge from it's 7th century mentality and join the rest of the world. Maybe, oh, I don't know, treat it's women a little better and calm the fekk down.CameronPoe wrote:
Let's not make this another religion thread. All I'll say is you are being incredibly condescending towards followers of Islam when you yourself follow a religion that ravaged the middle ages with war upon war. Pot. Kettle. Black.JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.CameronPoe wrote:
There's also equally as much proof that Jesus was the son of a deity and performed 'miracles' on a semi-regular basis.
Not everything is worthy of a suicide bombing. And if your wife shows an ankle, please don't feel the need to throw acid on her face, or beat her with a shoe.
I like how Jam Dude considers Pastafarians a serious religion.
Their religion is 7 centuries behind christianity. The path from early christianity, through crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the 100 years war, the protestant reformation and many other milestones has been a long arduous one, costing many lives. As recently as the 1920s in the west a woman showing ankle was regarded as promiscuous. Evolution of institutions like religions does not happen overnight. It certainly doesn't happen at gunpoint either.Erkut.hv wrote:
You would think Islam, seeing how Christianity was during it's dark ages, would emerge from it's 7th century mentality and join the rest of the world. Maybe, oh, I don't know, treat it's women a little better and calm the fekk down.CameronPoe wrote:
Let's not make this another religion thread. All I'll say is you are being incredibly condescending towards followers of Islam when you yourself follow a religion that ravaged the middle ages with war upon war. Pot. Kettle. Black.JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.
Not everything is worthy of a suicide bombing. And if your wife shows an ankle, please don't feel the need to throw acid on her face, or beat her with a shoe.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-09 08:45:08)
I've been doing some thinking, and have actually come up with something that would stop, or at least slow down these ancient battles. It would have to be something massive, something both sides percieved as a greater threat than their traditional enemies. Something that threatened the destruction of not just their locals, but the world in general. In short, I beleive the ONLY way to stop these wars, is an alien invasion. Now, hear me out. Such a thing as that would solidify most people on the planet into a single group, not black or white, not Islamic or Jewish, but human. In order to bring two opposing forces together, you have to confront them with an epicly more threatening enemy. (And no, the US does not fill this role). A massive natural disaster of some sort wouldn't work either, it has to be something we can fight, after all, we are a war like species.......so yes, give us a race of super powerful extra terrestrials to fight, and watch humanity unite.
'Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists'JaMDuDe wrote:
See, his followers are angry mean people Can you please show me where i said all muslims are terrorists?--->[Your]Phobia<--- wrote:
I follow him, and why the fuck am i not a terrorist and or radical ?JaMDuDe wrote:
But Jesus did his miracles in public and eyewitnesses wrote down what they saw. You do need a little faith to believe he was God but nowheres near as much as you need to believe in FSM. Mohammed did his stuff in private and theres nothing linking him to being a prophet. Now the people who are following him are always in wars and have huge problems with radicals and terrorists.
Stupid fck.
Here you are Implying that any one who follows him thats like 20/25% of the worlds population is a radical and or terrorist. If that was the case their would have been a noticble increase in terrorism.. You have no idea about whats going on around the world. There is a small minority (VERY SMALL) who are these so called radicals and terrorists, who in turn give the rest of the muslim population a bad name.. quite frankly I'd like to see them all rounded up and shot. Problem solved.
1st - I'm not mean, but I am angry because you are suggesting he was a pot head, do you see me going round making comments that have no evidence and or supporting facts.....
2nd I answered your question full stop.
This is not about religion, is about having a place to call home, that's the matter between those countries. Do you really think that an israeli looks much different than a palestine dude, hell no.
Besides, not only muslin are terrorists, remember what happened more than 10 years ago in USA when a group of "american christian terrorists" blew up a hospital or some maternity duno remember. Don't forget north irish army the IRA or spanish army ETA. They aint muslin. They both want their own and free home.
Besides, not only muslin are terrorists, remember what happened more than 10 years ago in USA when a group of "american christian terrorists" blew up a hospital or some maternity duno remember. Don't forget north irish army the IRA or spanish army ETA. They aint muslin. They both want their own and free home.