Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818
______________________________THE WAR

Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is
without a
doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding
the War
in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and
give a
fair evaluation.

I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so
when I
received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But
then I
did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air
Force
Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical Center
in San
Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California,
and
these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about!(the
same
Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking
writings.)

Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL!

Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired


Tuesday, July 12, 2005



To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country
is now
facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we
have
faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are
very
few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who
realize
what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?




Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United
States is
concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the
following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581
terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks
happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush
1,
Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or
Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or
their
immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?




In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?




Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the
predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under
the
dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no
difference. You either went along with the administration or you were
eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis
for
political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as
the six
million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom hear of
anything
other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world
focused on the
Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of
exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian
or any
others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but
kill all
in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.
The point
here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to
anyone
from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they
are no
protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are
fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all
of us
"infidels." I don't blame the
peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than
the Muslim
terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid
verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win
if you
don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions.


We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the
major
reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the
answer to the
second question - What does losing mean?


It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means
hanging
our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business,
like post
Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks
will not
subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us
dead, not
just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have
produced an
increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The
plan was
clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and
submissive to
them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear
of
reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and
cannot
help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will
be
increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It
doesn't
matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops
from
Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and
told
them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will
be done.
Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they
might see
the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in
that they
can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us.
However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20%
Muslim and
fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life
will all
vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if
they
were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could
anyone
else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
completely
committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be
likewise
committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple.
Until we
recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of
our
thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100%
effort to
win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That
is,
defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their
purpose, and
really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are
united,
there is no way that we can lose. If we
continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the
life and
death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
Although
all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17
and 40
years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow
profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously?
This is
war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the
civil rights
we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of
our
civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them
permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil
rights
during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in
fact added
many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our
Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict
and
have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war.
Get them
out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us
lose. I
hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because
they
just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct
gives the
impression to the enemy that we are divided and
weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our
cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media
regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies
best what
I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of
a few
Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These
are the
type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people
off
buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and
otherwise
murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
400,000 of
their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of
enemy
fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and
dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is
providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading
of
American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several
days have
thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some
Muslim
prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses
through the
streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the
Secretary of
Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of
comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are
fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous
results of
losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this
prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome
burned --
totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we,
nor any
other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does
not
mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It
simply means
that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation
we are in
and into which the Muslim
terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels!
That
translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but
throughout
the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge
is
valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that
we are
so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of
all those
who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can
defeat
anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive,
and no
other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow
freedom
of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the
press, equal
rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for
women,
or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the
good of
the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war
or we
will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the
Roman
Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be
written
or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims
take
over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase
the
Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little,
on the
established French traditions. The French will be fighting among
themselves,
over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken
them and
keep them from any united resolve.



Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
external
military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away,
politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown,
worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even
to
themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then
start
brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the
masses.
Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the
"peaceful
Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
united,
there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the
factions
in our country will begin to focus on the critical
situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your
future we
are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves,
but our
children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that
includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our
"leaders"
in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find fault with
our
country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this,
that we
must UNITE!

If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web
sight and
look him up.
http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C





Please discuss
farmerfez
o wut?
+78|6773

too long, i wont read it lol
spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|6783|vancouver
Not written by Dr. Vernon Chong.  Maybe his brother Tommy wrote it.

I'll read it later, just thought I better mention that before too many people get the wrong idea.

EDIT:  Okay, got about as far as the part where the anonymous author starts lumping in all kinds of groups because they're Muslims.  Not buying it.

Last edited by spastic bullet (2006-08-04 18:19:25)

Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818
Regardless of who wrote it, it is thought provoking.
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6760|Montucky
yeah i got that in an email too, if only you could have fixed the
formatting
in it so it wouldn't look like this..
SonofASniper
Pump It Baby, Pump it!
+34|6779|Oregon

farmerfez wrote:

too long, i wont read it lol
You should have.  It is thought provoking.  It has drawn some corralations that I never really pieced together before in that way.

The most interesting to me though is how he defined what is losing and what losing would mean.

If that were in fact to come about that way,  that would definately put forth the fruition of some doomsday prophecies by the Bible, Nostrodamus, etc.    The new Babylon perhaps?    OMG the worlds coming to an end!!!  *lol*   it will end sometime between now and when its over. 

SOS
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818

[1FR]S3v3N wrote:

yeah i got that in an email too, if only you could have fixed the
formatting
in it so it wouldn't look like this..
Sorry mate
-=CB=-krazykarl
not always PWD, but usually.
+95|6778|Carlsbad, CA, USA

if i could give you 100 karma for this i would, unfortunately, there are most on here who won't even read it, and if they do won't beleive it.  those people are lost, and therefore an enemy of mine, EVERYTHING that brilliant man said is TRUE! to the letter and word. we need soldiers and fighters now not pansies and politicians. these politicians are self serving bitches, interested only in thier bank statements. quote "every 100 years a democracy needs a revolution to put the people (who aren't afraid to bleed and die) back in power" THOMAS JEFFERSON. end quote. all of you who aren't pansy, pacifist, bitches follow me to the front line!
Karl Kettler
edit one: the parenthesis part in the quote is mine!!!111111111twentytwoelenventynine@!21!!2
edit two: f*ck the formatting, read it you bitches!

Last edited by -=CB=-krazykarl (2006-08-04 18:45:25)

-=CB=-krazykarl
not always PWD, but usually.
+95|6778|Carlsbad, CA, USA

spastic bullet wrote:

Not written by Dr. Vernon Chong.  Maybe his brother Tommy wrote it.

I'll read it later, just thought I better mention that before too many people get the wrong idea.

EDIT:  Okay, got about as far as the part where the anonymous author starts lumping in all kinds of groups because they're Muslims.  Not buying it.
all kinds of groups? oh yeah terrorists.......you are down with that huh? ok, glad you live in canada! you and your friends blow it up next time ok?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6737
Its bullshit as soon as he states that the reason bombings at American embassies is that someone "envies our position." This is not the way the world works, and is American government propaganda meant to blind the public.
rawls
Banned
+11|7057|California, USA

jonsimon wrote:

Its bullshit as soon as he states that the reason bombings at American embassies is that someone "envies our position." This is not the way the world works, and is American government propaganda meant to blind the public.
Oh, listen up everybody! A real expert on world affairs is speaking.[/sarcasm]
jonsimon
Member
+224|6737

rawls wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Its bullshit as soon as he states that the reason bombings at American embassies is that someone "envies our position." This is not the way the world works, and is American government propaganda meant to blind the public.
Oh, listen up everybody! A real expert on world affairs is speaking.[/sarcasm]
I don't have to be an expert on world affairs to realize how silly it is for a civillian to be radicalized into taking his own life beacause he is jealous.

The Africans are worse off than the Middle East, and no one accuses them of jealousy.
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6895
Most biased pile of rubbish I've read in a while.  Almost tops the Obsession film: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … 2246845611
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Most biased pile of rubbish I've read in a while.  Almost tops the Obsession film: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … 2246845611
Well you took the time to read it. So good for you that's all I ask, and of course any comments.
-=CB=-krazykarl
not always PWD, but usually.
+95|6778|Carlsbad, CA, USA

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Most biased pile of rubbish I've read in a while.  Almost tops the Obsession film: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … 2246845611
dude it dosen't affect your country, STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this thread.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6804
I can't be bothered going over the whole thing ATM, but one point of note:  Spain had pretty clearly announced it's intentions to withdraw from Iraq before they were attacked.

-=CB=-krazykarl wrote:

dude it dosen't affect your country, STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this thread.
I'm so sick of hearing these dumbass posts.  It's a public forum, with members from all over the world.  You don't like it STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this forum.
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818

Bubbalo wrote:

I can't be bothered going over the whole thing ATM, but one point of note:  Spain had pretty clearly announced it's intentions to withdraw from Iraq before they were attacked.

-=CB=-krazykarl wrote:

dude it dosen't affect your country, STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this thread.
I'm so sick of hearing these dumbass posts.  It's a public forum, with members from all over the world.  You don't like it STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this forum.
You should read it all Bubbalo, you may find some other points to discuss. I think maybe the author is trying to say Spain should of made a U-turn and showed they will fight against such terrible acts. That's brings up another point, you are correct they were committed to withdrawal before the attack...so why did they get attacked?
BVC
Member
+325|6938

-=CB=-krazykarl wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Most biased pile of rubbish I've read in a while.  Almost tops the Obsession film: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … 2246845611
dude it dosen't affect your country, STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this thread.
Hes from the UK.  Not too long ago there was a series of terrorist attacks in London, perpetrated by Muslim terrorists...you know, the subway and bus bombings?  Muslim terrorism DOES affect him.  In some way it affects all of us...I remember before 9/11 I didn't need to walk through metal detectors and have my bags X-rayed when I got on a DOMESTIC flight...

The fact is, the author of that article has a very good point; In the eyes of the extremeists, all non-Muslims are targets, and it doesn't matter where they live.

Last edited by Pubic (2006-08-06 17:11:47)

Fancy_Pollux
Connoisseur of Fine Wine
+1,306|6888
Were you all hopped up on goof balls when you formatted that post? Good God.
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6951|England. Stoke

Pubic wrote:

-=CB=-krazykarl wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Most biased pile of rubbish I've read in a while.  Almost tops the Obsession film: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … 2246845611
dude it dosen't affect your country, STAY THE FUCK AWAY from this thread.
Hes from the UK.  Not too long ago there was a series of terrorist attacks in London, perpetrated by Muslim terrorists...you know, the subway and bus bombings?  Muslim terrorism DOES affect him.  In some way it affects all of us...
Exactly it does affect ALL of us that is the whole point of the global war on on terror. But to say that it doesnt affect someone from the UK (if that where he from) in particular is just plain ignorant, as mentioned above the London 7/7 attacks and then the fact that the UK is apart from the US doing the vast majority of soldiering in both Iraq and Afganistan. If that the attitude you are going to take is it any wonder that countries like Spain dont want to be dragged into conflict alongside the US.
Personally I support the invasion of both Iraq and Afganistan and the forces of all the ALLIED forces involved, but ignorant comments like this dont help to sway the support of people who have their doubts...
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6804

Sgt.Zubie wrote:

You should read it all Bubbalo, you may find some other points to discuss. I think maybe the author is trying to say Spain should of made a U-turn and showed they will fight against such terrible acts. That's brings up another point, you are correct they were committed to withdrawal before the attack...so why did they get attacked?
Maybe to draw them into Iraq to encourage more youths to join the insurgency, which then makes it easier to recruit them into organisations like Al Qaeda.  Just a wacky theory.
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818

Fancy_Pollux wrote:

Were you all hopped up on goof balls when you formatted that post? Good God.
lol , i didn't format it, that's the problem...sorry
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6818

Bubbalo wrote:

Sgt.Zubie wrote:

You should read it all Bubbalo, you may find some other points to discuss. I think maybe the author is trying to say Spain should of made a U-turn and showed they will fight against such terrible acts. That's brings up another point, you are correct they were committed to withdrawal before the attack...so why did they get attacked?
Maybe to draw them into Iraq to encourage more youths to join the insurgency, which then makes it easier to recruit them into organisations like Al Qaeda.  Just a wacky theory.
Is it better to show your tail and run or fight? Running never stopped a bully. These guys are bullies intent on submitting us all.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7019
Muslims are taking over the world. I like to compare them to bunnies. They have the same reproduction rate and education. Majority of muslims are peaceful. But there are still over 100 million of them who want to kill all non-muslims and force everyone to follow their beliefs. And the majority of muslims who are peaceful probably dont want to stop them.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-08-06 18:19:10)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6797

JaMDuDe wrote:

Muslims are taking over the world. I like to compare them to bunnies. They have the same reproduction rate and education. Majority of muslims are peaceful. But there are still over 100 million of them who want to kill all non-muslims and force everyone to follow their beliefs. And the majority of muslims who are peaceful probably dont want to stop them.
Over 100 million people who want to kill non-muslims? Well I know several and I have yet to experience a knife in my back. Come to think of it when I was in the West Bank in Palestine, hotbed of some of this fundamentalism, I also survived unscathed after wandering through the streets of several towns without any security whatseover. I even had lengthy conversations with several of them. And there was those times I went to Jordan and Morocco too. I must have just gotten lucky. I'll know better next time. Thanks for the warning Jamdude.

Similarly, a few of my friends and acquaintances have been to Iran, Lebanon, Egypt and Libya and most concurred that arabs were the kindest, most generous and most welcoming people they had met outside of IReland. The crafty buggers were obviously biding their time for the right moment to strike at the west and to kill us all with gigantic simitars!!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-06 18:29:24)

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