Balderdash!!!jonsimon wrote:
Except Israel has never tried diplomacy.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
.....
If your country be it US , Ireland, france whatever, is being attacked by rockets from the neighbouring country what do you do? You send a diplomat over saying please stop, you recieve a video of him being butchered. you send another one, same thing happens. mean while you are still being blown up by rockets. but you dont want to fight back as the rocket postions are located in densly populate civilian areas. So you just sit there and watch your country blow up? no you go in and do the best you can to push them back from your borders as israel is doing.
As one of my quotes says, if an international body is going to critisize israel and say they are hurting too many civilians, then why dont the interantional body show them how to stop the rockets attacks without hurting civilians?
Nice of you to ignore the last 58 years. These terrorist organizations have shown time and time again that diplomacy means nothing to them.jonsimon wrote:
Except Israel has never tried diplomacy.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
.....
If your country be it US , Ireland, france whatever, is being attacked by rockets from the neighbouring country what do you do? You send a diplomat over saying please stop, you recieve a video of him being butchered. you send another one, same thing happens. mean while you are still being blown up by rockets. but you dont want to fight back as the rocket postions are located in densly populate civilian areas. So you just sit there and watch your country blow up? no you go in and do the best you can to push them back from your borders as israel is doing.
As one of my quotes says, if an international body is going to critisize israel and say they are hurting too many civilians, then why dont the interantional body show them how to stop the rockets attacks without hurting civilians?
The Lebanese people are complicit with the Hezbollah for not trying to remove this party's ability to wage terrorism. You think the rockets they are using are concealable on a person? No. The Lebanese army sees these rockets being moved, but does nothing, so the Lebanese people ARE condoning these attacks on Israel. I've heard it said if the Lebanese army does try to take care of Hezbollah, there will be another civil war. Well, if that is what it takes to not constantly be under the gun, then that is what should occur. The Hezbollah have already shown that they won't let the people have their own rulers by murdering them.
As for the U.N., their ROE are so restrictive that they are essentially sitting targets. Hopefully Americans troops will not be under U.N. authority should a peacekeeping force be deployed in the region. We've already had over 240 marines die there due to inhuman ROE. The U.N. is in the middle of a war zone and they're surprised that they are targets? The U.N. should pull out because they are not doing anything. If they are peacekeepers, they would have disarmed all of the positions surrounding them instead of letting them sit there.
If Americans started firing into Mexico with rockets and such, the American government would be down there in a flash disarming those people. Heck, they already do it when the people are defending their own property(see every illegal immigrant story ever). The difference is that the Lebanese government AND the UN do nothing about the terrorist organization, which forces a response from the victim(Israel).OpsChief wrote:
What if the USA's Democrats or Republicans started a shooting war with Mexico? Would they be considered a legit party or political organization at that point? NO SIR!!! They lose legitimacy at the point they act without governmental approval. Did Lebanon direct the kidnapping and missile attacks? They said "no", did they change their position?
When Hizbollah operates unilaterally they are acting as terrorists. Is everyone in Hizbollah guilty by membership alone, I don't think so. When they fulfill their policital/social obligations to their constituancy by feeding the hungry and build houses and infrastructure in Southern Lebanon they are legitimate.
Last edited by Jobarra (2006-08-02 10:40:20)
Proof please. And keep it unbiased.Jobarra wrote:
Nice of you to ignore the last 58 years. These terrorist organizations have shown time and time again that diplomacy means nothing to them.jonsimon wrote:
Except Israel has never tried diplomacy.Cheeky_Ninja06 wrote:
.....
If your country be it US , Ireland, france whatever, is being attacked by rockets from the neighbouring country what do you do? You send a diplomat over saying please stop, you recieve a video of him being butchered. you send another one, same thing happens. mean while you are still being blown up by rockets. but you dont want to fight back as the rocket postions are located in densly populate civilian areas. So you just sit there and watch your country blow up? no you go in and do the best you can to push them back from your borders as israel is doing.
As one of my quotes says, if an international body is going to critisize israel and say they are hurting too many civilians, then why dont the interantional body show them how to stop the rockets attacks without hurting civilians?
You're joking right? Ever heard of the Camp David Accords(not related to Hezbollah, but still, diplomatic actions in regards to former enemies)? The entire peace process? The formation of the Palestinian state? The formation of the Palestinian state should have removed Hamas from the equation, but it obviously hasn't, which shows that they will not follow diplomatic courses through.jonsimon wrote:
Proof please. And keep it unbiased.Jobarra wrote:
Nice of you to ignore the last 58 years. These terrorist organizations have shown time and time again that diplomacy means nothing to them.jonsimon wrote:
Except Israel has never tried diplomacy.
The Camp David affair is laughable. Israel offered Palestine statehood under the conditions that Israel kept their illegal settlements and controlled Palestine's borders. Essentially, Israel offered them a chance to come quietly. As for the election of HAMAS, I think that only proves the undemocratic and opressive actions of Israel. If the people elected HAMAS, the people should get HAMAS.Jobarra wrote:
You're joking right? Ever heard of the Camp David Accords(not related to Hezbollah, but still, diplomatic actions in regards to former enemies)? The entire peace process? The formation of the Palestinian state? The formation of the Palestinian state should have removed Hamas from the equation, but it obviously hasn't, which shows that they will not follow diplomatic courses through.jonsimon wrote:
Proof please. And keep it unbiased.Jobarra wrote:
Nice of you to ignore the last 58 years. These terrorist organizations have shown time and time again that diplomacy means nothing to them.
All of which are pseudo-diplomatic ventures with palestine. I wanted you to prove Israel tried diplomacy with Hezbollah. The conclusion remains that they have not.
should they try the same thing with every terrorist organization? are they incapable of learning?
again back to my analogy, you send the diplomats you get back videos of them being beheaded. you go in with troops and wipe them out.
1 yr later a different group shoots rockets, you send in diplomats, again they send you videos, you go in with troops push them away from the border. The surviving members set up another group ( under a diff name) train up fighters buy some rockets, launch them again.
now you have a choice. Do you send somebodies dad,brother,son,uncle (diplomat) back to ask this new threat to stop firing rockets knowing that the last 6 (granted sent to groups with different names) all got beheaded / mutilated. If the answer is yes then I'm sorry but i disagree.
I may be wrong but there are two conclusions i draw from this war.
1.Either they are trying everything thing they can to stop the war / killing / violence etc etc
2. They dont want to stop / are unwilling to compromise / only understand violence.
again back to my analogy, you send the diplomats you get back videos of them being beheaded. you go in with troops and wipe them out.
1 yr later a different group shoots rockets, you send in diplomats, again they send you videos, you go in with troops push them away from the border. The surviving members set up another group ( under a diff name) train up fighters buy some rockets, launch them again.
now you have a choice. Do you send somebodies dad,brother,son,uncle (diplomat) back to ask this new threat to stop firing rockets knowing that the last 6 (granted sent to groups with different names) all got beheaded / mutilated. If the answer is yes then I'm sorry but i disagree.
I may be wrong but there are two conclusions i draw from this war.
1.Either they are trying everything thing they can to stop the war / killing / violence etc etc
2. They dont want to stop / are unwilling to compromise / only understand violence.
Last edited by Cheeky_Ninja06 (2006-08-02 14:08:25)
What if that bank robber was holding a device that would destroy more than the house he ran into. What if he had explosives rigged around the whole block. About 60 house, families. Would it be ok to destroy that house and the family in order to save countless other families. I think it would. It's sad, but that's the real world.PRiMACORD wrote:
So i suppose if a bank robber goes into someones house to hide we should just blow up the whole fucking house?
Israel had the option to take the moral high ground, go in on foot and take on Hezbollah. Instead they've shown there thirst for blood and have only guaranteed future terrorism in the area.
Terrorists vs Terrorists.
Is it Hezzbolah or Israel that puts guns in children's hands and sends them out to fight???Zodiaccup wrote:
Yeah of course, like it explains the attacks on the convoys of refugees,Alexanderthegrape wrote:
... I say this explains the attack totally and exonerates Israel in this matter...
beaus their was some children of hizbollah-members in the cars....
I say the government of Israel is an accumulation of smacktards and imbeciles, they are not able
to use their fucking common sense, just like their opponents...
Is it Israel or Hezzbolah that is using civilians ( women and children ) as shields while launching attacks??
God, I hate being right all the time.
All of this talk about illegal settlements. Israel got the land in a war that was started by the ARABS in an attempt to wipe out Israel!!...and you say shame on Israel???!!!! jesus, I know you hate Israel and America and freedom and all, but for gods sake put it in the proper context. The Arabs are the agressors in all of this.jonsimon wrote:
The Camp David affair is laughable. Israel offered Palestine statehood under the conditions that Israel kept their illegal settlements and controlled Palestine's borders. Essentially, Israel offered them a chance to come quietly. As for the election of HAMAS, I think that only proves the undemocratic and opressive actions of Israel. If the people elected HAMAS, the people should get HAMAS.Jobarra wrote:
You're joking right? Ever heard of the Camp David Accords(not related to Hezbollah, but still, diplomatic actions in regards to former enemies)? The entire peace process? The formation of the Palestinian state? The formation of the Palestinian state should have removed Hamas from the equation, but it obviously hasn't, which shows that they will not follow diplomatic courses through.jonsimon wrote:
Proof please. And keep it unbiased.
All of which are pseudo-diplomatic ventures with palestine. I wanted you to prove Israel tried diplomacy with Hezbollah. The conclusion remains that they have not.
lol, if you are taking things back 40 years and more then the aggressors were Nazi Germany who created the need for Israel through their disgraceful behaviour, or the UN who gave away the land in the first place. But I mustn't forget who ever the US choses to demonize is the aggressor, right?lowing wrote:
All of this talk about illegal settlements. Israel got the land in a war that was started by the ARABS in an attempt to wipe out Israel!!...and you say shame on Israel???!!!! jesus, I know you hate Israel and America and freedom and all, but for gods sake put it in the proper context. The Arabs are the agressors in all of this.jonsimon wrote:
The Camp David affair is laughable. Israel offered Palestine statehood under the conditions that Israel kept their illegal settlements and controlled Palestine's borders. Essentially, Israel offered them a chance to come quietly. As for the election of HAMAS, I think that only proves the undemocratic and opressive actions of Israel. If the people elected HAMAS, the people should get HAMAS.Jobarra wrote:
You're joking right? Ever heard of the Camp David Accords(not related to Hezbollah, but still, diplomatic actions in regards to former enemies)? The entire peace process? The formation of the Palestinian state? The formation of the Palestinian state should have removed Hamas from the equation, but it obviously hasn't, which shows that they will not follow diplomatic courses through.
All of which are pseudo-diplomatic ventures with palestine. I wanted you to prove Israel tried diplomacy with Hezbollah. The conclusion remains that they have not.
Sarcasm Alert! You your right, ANYONE the US backs makes them A-OK!!UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
lol, if you are taking things back 40 years and more then the aggressors were Nazi Germany who created the need for Israel through their disgraceful behaviour, or the UN who gave away the land in the first place. But I mustn't forget who ever the US choses to demonize is the aggressor, right?lowing wrote:
All of this talk about illegal settlements. Israel got the land in a war that was started by the ARABS in an attempt to wipe out Israel!!...and you say shame on Israel???!!!! jesus, I know you hate Israel and America and freedom and all, but for gods sake put it in the proper context. The Arabs are the agressors in all of this.jonsimon wrote:
The Camp David affair is laughable. Israel offered Palestine statehood under the conditions that Israel kept their illegal settlements and controlled Palestine's borders. Essentially, Israel offered them a chance to come quietly. As for the election of HAMAS, I think that only proves the undemocratic and opressive actions of Israel. If the people elected HAMAS, the people should get HAMAS.
All of which are pseudo-diplomatic ventures with palestine. I wanted you to prove Israel tried diplomacy with Hezbollah. The conclusion remains that they have not.
As for this whole deal, I have never heard of a Jew walking into the middle of a market with bombs planted on Him or Her self and blowing up A shit load of Innocent people. I dont Judge a country on there Military, I Judge them on the actions of there so called Freedom fighters who want democracy, and there Gov ts Actions regarding What they do. In ALL cases the so called freedom fighters are Nothing more than Terrorists!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic … E_ID=28162UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
lol, if you are taking things back 40 years and more then the aggressors were Nazi Germany who created the need for Israel through their disgraceful behaviour, or the UN who gave away the land in the first place. But I mustn't forget who ever the US choses to demonize is the aggressor, right?lowing wrote:
All of this talk about illegal settlements. Israel got the land in a war that was started by the ARABS in an attempt to wipe out Israel!!...and you say shame on Israel???!!!! jesus, I know you hate Israel and America and freedom and all, but for gods sake put it in the proper context. The Arabs are the aggressors in all of this.jonsimon wrote:
The Camp David affair is laughable. Israel offered Palestine statehood under the conditions that Israel kept their illegal settlements and controlled Palestine's borders. Essentially, Israel offered them a chance to come quietly. As for the election of HAMAS, I think that only proves the undemocratic and opressive actions of Israel. If the people elected HAMAS, the people should get HAMAS.
All of which are pseudo-diplomatic ventures with palestine. I wanted you to prove Israel tried diplomacy with Hezbollah. The conclusion remains that they have not.
No, I wish to take things back a little farther. Back to the original owners of the land in question. Apparently the Jews owned the land FIRST.
Now, I will bow to the point that could be made that, the American Indians lost there land in a similar fashion. If the American Indians decided they wanted all there land back and war erupted because of it. I can stipulate that the world opinion would overwhelmingly favor the American Indian as the victim of US aggression. To this point I have no argument. I have always admitted to the hypocrisy in our history regarding issues like this.
Lowing this has been discussed numerous times. The original inhabitants were the Cana'anites. I wouldn't post links to unbelievably right wing zionist news souces to prove points. Try finding the information you need to support your argument from a more neutral source - that will lend more credence to your arguments and perhaps change a few minds.lowing wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28162
No, I wish to take things back a little farther. Back to the original owners of the land in question. Apparently the Jews owned the land FIRST.
Forget who wrote it, are you saying the history written about in this article did not take place??CameronPoe wrote:
Lowing this has been discussed numerous times. The original inhabitants were the Cana'anites. I wouldn't post links to unbelievably right wing zionist news souces to prove points. Try finding the information you need to support your argument from a more neutral source - that will lend more credence to your arguments and perhaps change a few minds.lowing wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28162
No, I wish to take things back a little farther. Back to the original owners of the land in question. Apparently the Jews owned the land FIRST.
http://zealforisrael.blogspot.com/2005/ … eople.html
ok how 'bout this one it supports your post.
I find it difficult to find an ubiased article for this topic since this issue is so polarized.
Kinda like trying to find and unbiased article on abortion.
Last edited by lowing (2006-08-04 05:52:26)
Hezbollah is a peaceful, socially benevolent, Lebanese political party with a privately funded army who operates autonomously from governments directives. Why doesn't that seem strange to you? I bet the Hezbollahzian military is a terrorist organization even by Lebanese government definition or they would not have asked for it to be disarmed. They can't say 'terrorists' or they will be called zionist errand boys as they lose their heads.jonsimon wrote:
Ah, so they're terrorists because the US says so. Obviously they should seperate from the military branch and change their name because the americans, canadians, and brits over seas call them terrorists. </sarcasm> You seem to think Hezbollah has some evil sinister intentions of being a terrorist group and that is their purpose. You're dead wrong. They we're dubbed terrorists by the triumverate of american power in the west, the fact is they began as freedom fighters. They were fighting to remove an occupying force.Erkut.hv wrote:
Do you mean Israeli, or jew by faith?=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
Are you Jewish by any chance? Not flaming, a geniune question......
No to both, but I am tired of everyone on this particular forum rushing to condemn Israel while propping up hezbollah as a legitimate political entity.
Any political group that also shares it's name with a terrorist group, should change it's name, or bear the brunt of being grouped with their colleagues.
A great paraellel is the American Revolution. Americans, living in America, revolted, and fought back against British troops from another country. Because the Americans lived here, they attacked from civillian centers and wore their regular clothes. They couldn't afford uniforms. Obviously the American revolution was a terrorist action. We didn't fight by the rules and line up to die, no, the Americans hid and struck while the enemy was marching. How unfair and down right dirty! What terrorists those revolutionaries were.
Well, the American Terrorists won the war and took back their land. So did the Lebannese. But imagine if the Brits came back! Thats exactly what is happening here. Hezbollah and the Lebannese drove off Israel after 20 years of occupation. Now, Israel is coming back, and Hezbollah is fighting in the places they live and the clothes they own. And America is shouting terrorism.
Do you think Isreal would have just up and attacked Lebanon if the Hezbulahnese army wouldn't have kidnapped and fired rockets?
P.S. There is a difference between revolutionaries using guerrilla tactics and terrorists. Although many militia units wore 'irregular' clothing throughout the war, Militia and Continental Soldiers did have uniforms, and Unit Standards and wore them and carried the flags. An ambush in a declared war does not make terrorists.
Last edited by OpsChief (2006-08-06 20:46:13)
Does anyone ever think that Hezbollah are using the Lebonise goverment as pupets?
~ Do you not know that in the service … one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?
It goes deeper. Iran is using Hezbollah to control Lebonan. Israel is going to have to declare war on Iran. Yup, end of days is coming.R3v4n wrote:
Does anyone ever think that Hezbollah are using the Lebonise goverment as pupets?