Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7010|UK
redhawk its safe to say,

1. ur an idiot.
2. you know jack shit about WWII
Spumantiii
pistolero
+147|6926|Canada

EVIL_STYX wrote:

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

n conclusion: Paaaleease..open your eyes to the facts. Not Mainstream Media which is controlled and monitored by your Government

WTF????? Are you for real? IF that were true, Mainstream media would be reporting ALL the good we have done in Iraq, instead of spreading the hate of America through its Bias hatred of the war by reporting the Negatives EVERY FUCKING MINUTE OF THE DAY! Thus Swaying the worlds opinion of us. Ted Turner has done more to Hurt America than Bush EVER could!
Good Job,

EVIL_STYX OUT!!!
I'm sorry but from your PMs I can't resist:

Oh no that EVIL_STINK is back eugh what are we going to do
OPEN A WINDOW AND LET THE EVIL_STINK OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6845|132 and Bush

cosmichippo wrote:

HeimdalX wrote:

I love people that are so far to the right that they call Fox News Liberal or Mainstream.

Try watching BBC news and compare.
I agree, the scary thing is, people rely on that BS news for their info,. No wonder they are so confused.lol If people really want to know what FOX news is about I suggest watching this. http://www.outfoxed.org/
There is no doubt in my mind the fox has a huge lean. I guess it's to counter the lean of places like CNN and the Washington times (I have a good friend that works for the times).
Xbone Stormsurgezz
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739
Fox News is so dumb they spelled Faux wrong.
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

cosmichippo is a TOOL wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

cosmichippo"Madman Crazy Canuck" wrote:

Educate myself? LOL whatever. Dude..you are unbelievable..you believe that crap? Its a perfectly punctured hole...as well, there is no plane wreckage, at all!!! Planes leave wreckage Einstein. Windows are still in tact just feet where the "cruise missile" went threw the building. The pentagon is the most highly secured building in the world, lets have some real footage please...there is hundreds of cameras that covered that side of the building...nothing , i say again, nothing concrete form your Govt has been released to prove a "plane" hit the pentagon. Too funny..educate myself..lol
First of all, "mongling" is not a word genius...it's"mongering" Second,We are a Bi-lingual country...that doesn't make us stupid, that makes us more intelligent. An ignorant person like you assumes we are all French and live in igloos. Thirdly, What is America? It's a country full of immigrants!!! Most of which are illegal! Do you know what Deep Integration is? Probably not lol ...why don't you look that up. Your boundaries are a little off.

To be proud that your country is shady, blood thirsty, power hungry, is your own prerogative. Good for you. I take pride in being the most helpful, peaceful, country in the world. Oh, and an additional note to prove that you are war mongers, continue reading.

Just in case you've gotten the impression that the Bush administration isn't seriously considering a military strike against Iran using both conventional and nuclear weapons, see the Amer can Progress Action Fund's 4-10-06 Progress Report, "The Nuclear Option."  You can read it below or at: http://www.americanprogressaction.org/s … p;b=917053
We should be deeply skeptical about the legitimacy of the Bush administration's cause for war, because: (a) we know that the war-profiteering neocons prefer their illegal "Bush Doctrine of Preemptive War" to the civilized pursuit of diplomatic and juridical solutions; (b) we have every reason to believe that a conventional aerial strike against Iran would quickly escalate into a regional war with global terrorist blow back; and (c) their plan for a nuclear strike against Iran is "completely nuts," insofar as it would be both a monstrous war crime and a humanitarian disaster of the first magnitude......but what's new?? Never stopped you before.


If Americans thought for a minute to invade Canada, you would be invaded by most countries of the world almost instantly. I'm proud that we are not WAR MONGERS as you. Besides that, every Canadian soldier is trained 5 jobs to every Americans 1. Wouldn't want to overload your brain. I know driving a Hummer and then changing its tire is quite a feat. (I seen it happen. Pulled over in my M109 Howitzer to a broken down American HumV with buddy sitting in the front twiddling his thumbs. I said to him, "Do you need a hand? What's the problem?" he says, "Oh nothing, just waiting for the tire guy to get here to change it." The Spare is mounted on the back.) LMAO
Educate myself..you're funny man..i would tear you up on Current events and world issues.
No sense argueing with this punk, He's lost his mind!!!!!

"Most of the immigrants in America are illegal."  Let's look at this statement... America's population around 300,000,000, illegal immigrants (estimated) 12,000,000, percentage of illegals = 4%

"Where is the plane wreckage?" -  How about here...
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack008.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack007.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack006.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack005.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack004.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack003.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack002.jpg http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n191 … ack001.jpg

Think of it this way, if there was a conspiracy.  There would be no loose change video.  Think about it, the guys that made the video would have been dealt with Lee Harvey Oswald style.

Also, don't get me wrong to the other canadians here, I love Canada.  But the invade Canada thing, I'm sure was a joke, But even if it wasn't you can't obviously believe any of the crap you typed about holding your own.  Please say your joking, if the US government wanted to it would have done it by now.
Lee harvey Oswald style..lol and I suppose you think it was he that shot J.F.K? Why don't you watch the assaination video again. Once the car has already passed the observatory tower and he is shot in the head, his head flys "BACKWARDS" not forwards like physics would demand.
As far as the immigrant thing goes, I was driving home a point, why don't you read some real statistics.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html
OMFG What I was saying, if you could read and comprehend you would understand.  I was saying they would be dealt with like the dealt with Oswald, Jack Ruby shot him.  Then Ruby got shot... NO LOOSE ENDS! 

If 9/11 was a coverup, only about 1200 people would have to be involved in keeping it a secret.  That wouldn;t be hard to do, would it.

Yeah, I meant illegal immigrants. Out of 300,000,000 it's still not much of the population.  YOU SAID MOST OF THE POPULATION. Tool.

Last edited by |AIA| DAS (2006-08-02 12:32:21)

cosmichippo
Member
+5|6730|New Brunswick, Canada

|AIA| DAS Some ignorant Kid wrote:

OMFG What I was saying, if you could read and comprehend you would understand.  I was saying they would be dealt with like the dealt with Oswald, Jack Ruby shot him.  Then Ruby got shot... NO LOOSE ENDS! 

If 9/11 was a coverup, only about 1200 people would have to be involved in keeping it a secret.  That wouldn;t be hard to do, would it.

Yeah, I meant illegal immigrants. Out of 300,000,000 it's still not much of the population.  YOU SAID MOST OF THE POPULATION. Tool.
Man, you are a naive sad soul. 9/11 was/is a SHAM fronted and funded by your govt. period. I don't give two shit s what you say. It's a Fin no brainer. The Pentagon was used to attract the media..The highest security in the world is credited to the Pentagon and they still can't fin muster a decent footage to show it's people.  WTC tragedy hasn't got half as much coverage as the Pentagon. If you had any Fin inclination to find out the truth, you would base your pathetic research on real plane wreckages.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Go watch your fucking FOX news wanker!

Last edited by cosmichippo (2006-08-02 21:02:14)

Mongoose
That 70's guy
+156|6774|Sydney, in 1978
personally i couldnt give a shit what little pathetic countries you invade as long as you guys keep making 4 things for the rest of the world
1) Cars (omfg the best in the world in MY OPINION)
2) Guns (by far the best makers of then in the world, hands down)
3) Music (you guys started rock'n'roll, even though i like heavy metal)
4) Movies (love 'em)
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6845|132 and Bush

Mongoose wrote:

personally i couldnt give a shit what little pathetic countries you invade as long as you guys keep making 4 things for the rest of the world
1) Cars (omfg the best in the world in MY OPINION)
2) Guns (by far the best makers of then in the world, hands down)
3) Music (you guys started rock'n'roll, even though i like heavy metal)
4) Movies (love 'em)
lol, just for you brutha
Xbone Stormsurgezz
=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6794|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

Mongoose wrote:

personally i couldnt give a shit what little pathetic countries you invade as long as you guys keep making 4 things for the rest of the world
1) Cars (omfg the best in the world in MY OPINION)
2) Guns (by far the best makers of then in the world, hands down)
3) Music (you guys started rock'n'roll, even though i like heavy metal)
4) Movies (love 'em)
Cars - Is that supposed to be sarcastic?  Watch Top Gear and see what Jeremy Clarkson has to say about them (although he did buy a Ford recently).  But seriously, have you ever heard of Ferrari, Mercedes, Porche, Honda, BMW and so on?  All of which I'd rate above any American make but then I live in Europe and there tends to be a weird facination with 8 litre automatics in Aus/US so I understand you preference....

Guns - Hmmm, not sure if they make the best but I would question whether in the civilised world we('re supposed to) live in it is a "boast" to make the best killing equipment.

Music - Keep some of it coming but could you get rid of Pussycat Dolls, Jay-Z (and most of that stuff labled "hip hop", all of Emo/Skater Rock...in fact I'm struggling to think of good artists at the moment.

Movies - Shawshank Redemption, yes....Streetfighter 2, NO!
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

Mongoose wrote:

personally i couldnt give a shit what little pathetic countries you invade as long as you guys keep making 4 things for the rest of the world
1) Cars (omfg the best in the world in MY OPINION)
2) Guns (by far the best makers of then in the world, hands down)
3) Music (you guys started rock'n'roll, even though i like heavy metal)
4) Movies (love 'em)
Cars - Is that supposed to be sarcastic?  Watch Top Gear and see what Jeremy Clarkson has to say about them (although he did buy a Ford recently).  But seriously, have you ever heard of Ferrari, Mercedes, Porche, Honda, BMW and so on?  All of which I'd rate above any American make but then I live in Europe and there tends to be a weird facination with 8 litre automatics in Aus/US so I understand you preference....

Guns - Hmmm, not sure if they make the best but I would question whether in the civilised world we('re supposed to) live in it is a "boast" to make the best killing equipment.

Music - Keep some of it coming but could you get rid of Pussycat Dolls, Jay-Z (and most of that stuff labled "hip hop", all of Emo/Skater Rock...in fact I'm struggling to think of good artists at the moment.

Movies - Shawshank Redemption, yes....Streetfighter 2, NO!
Honda FTW! I love my dads Civic. Honda and Toyota cars are way better than any of the American makes.
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

cosmichippo fucking clown shoes wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

OMFG What I was saying, if you could read and comprehend you would understand.  I was saying they would be dealt with like the dealt with Oswald, Jack Ruby shot him.  Then Ruby got shot... NO LOOSE ENDS! 

If 9/11 was a coverup, only about 1200 people would have to be involved in keeping it a secret.  That wouldn;t be hard to do, would it.

Yeah, I meant illegal immigrants. Out of 300,000,000 it's still not much of the population.  YOU SAID MOST OF THE POPULATION. Tool.
Man, you are a naive sad soul. 9/11 was/is a SHAM fronted and funded by your govt. period. I don't give two shit s what you say. It's a Fin no brainer. The Pentagon was used to attract the media..The highest security in the world is credited to the Pentagon and they still can't fin muster a decent footage to show it's people.  WTC tragedy hasn't got half as much coverage as the Pentagon. If you had any Fin inclination to find out the truth, you would base your pathetic research on real plane wreckages.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Go watch your fucking FOX news wanker!
You are obviously a lunatic.  I've showed you photos of the wreckage... Explain the peices of the Rolls Royce jet engine found inside... Even people at Rolls Royce identified that wreckage as the engine of a 757.  You sir are either a child or just an ignorant conspiracy theorist. 

Your flash video was cute...
Quotes from people no one's ever heard of... Who the hell is Skarla?  Madonna's sister?

If you can read  read this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science … =6&c=y

PWNED!
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

jonsimon wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

Mongoose wrote:

personally i couldnt give a shit what little pathetic countries you invade as long as you guys keep making 4 things for the rest of the world
1) Cars (omfg the best in the world in MY OPINION)
2) Guns (by far the best makers of then in the world, hands down)
3) Music (you guys started rock'n'roll, even though i like heavy metal)
4) Movies (love 'em)
Cars - Is that supposed to be sarcastic?  Watch Top Gear and see what Jeremy Clarkson has to say about them (although he did buy a Ford recently).  But seriously, have you ever heard of Ferrari, Mercedes, Porche, Honda, BMW and so on?  All of which I'd rate above any American make but then I live in Europe and there tends to be a weird facination with 8 litre automatics in Aus/US so I understand you preference....

Guns - Hmmm, not sure if they make the best but I would question whether in the civilised world we('re supposed to) live in it is a "boast" to make the best killing equipment.

Music - Keep some of it coming but could you get rid of Pussycat Dolls, Jay-Z (and most of that stuff labled "hip hop", all of Emo/Skater Rock...in fact I'm struggling to think of good artists at the moment.

Movies - Shawshank Redemption, yes....Streetfighter 2, NO!
Honda FTW! I love my dads Civic. Honda and Toyota cars are way better than any of the American makes.
FACT  Honda builds over 1 million cars & trucks per year in the USA, some even for export.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

|AIA| DAS wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:


Cars - Is that supposed to be sarcastic?  Watch Top Gear and see what Jeremy Clarkson has to say about them (although he did buy a Ford recently).  But seriously, have you ever heard of Ferrari, Mercedes, Porche, Honda, BMW and so on?  All of which I'd rate above any American make but then I live in Europe and there tends to be a weird facination with 8 litre automatics in Aus/US so I understand you preference....

Guns - Hmmm, not sure if they make the best but I would question whether in the civilised world we('re supposed to) live in it is a "boast" to make the best killing equipment.

Music - Keep some of it coming but could you get rid of Pussycat Dolls, Jay-Z (and most of that stuff labled "hip hop", all of Emo/Skater Rock...in fact I'm struggling to think of good artists at the moment.

Movies - Shawshank Redemption, yes....Streetfighter 2, NO!
Honda FTW! I love my dads Civic. Honda and Toyota cars are way better than any of the American makes.
FACT  Honda builds over 1 million cars & trucks per year in the USA, some even for export.
FACT Honda is based in Asia. THAT MAKES IT AN ASIAN MAKE. Make refers to brand idiot, not where the factory is.
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

jonsimon wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Honda FTW! I love my dads Civic. Honda and Toyota cars are way better than any of the American makes.
FACT  Honda builds over 1 million cars & trucks per year in the USA, some even for export.
FACT Honda is based in Asia. THAT MAKES IT AN ASIAN MAKE. Make refers to brand idiot, not where the factory is.
Idiot, huh?  WTF do you know about HONDA child, I worked for them for the last 14 years...  For your information there are three different corporations American Honda Motor Corporation.  Honda Worldwide. and Honda of Japan. 

I don't remember my statement being hostile... Why is yours, Child.

Last edited by |AIA| DAS (2006-08-03 08:52:49)

cosmichippo
Member
+5|6730|New Brunswick, Canada

|AIA| DAS wrote:

cosmichippo fucking clown shoes wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

OMFG What I was saying, if you could read and comprehend you would understand.  I was saying they would be dealt with like the dealt with Oswald, Jack Ruby shot him.  Then Ruby got shot... NO LOOSE ENDS! 

If 9/11 was a coverup, only about 1200 people would have to be involved in keeping it a secret.  That wouldn;t be hard to do, would it.

Yeah, I meant illegal immigrants. Out of 300,000,000 it's still not much of the population.  YOU SAID MOST OF THE POPULATION. Tool.
Man, you are a naive sad soul. 9/11 was/is a SHAM fronted and funded by your govt. period. I don't give two shit s what you say. It's a Fin no brainer. The Pentagon was used to attract the media..The highest security in the world is credited to the Pentagon and they still can't fin muster a decent footage to show it's people.  WTC tragedy hasn't got half as much coverage as the Pentagon. If you had any Fin inclination to find out the truth, you would base your pathetic research on real plane wreckages.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Go watch your fucking FOX news wanker!
You are obviously a lunatic.  I've showed you photos of the wreckage... Explain the peices of the Rolls Royce jet engine found inside... Even people at Rolls Royce identified that wreckage as the engine of a 757.  You sir are either a child or just an ignorant conspiracy theorist. 

Your flash video was cute...
Quotes from people no one's ever heard of... Who the hell is Skarla?  Madonna's sister?

If you can read  read this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science … =6&c=y

PWNED!
There you go again...ignoring the facts..Why hasn't the Pentagon released Irrefutable evidence?? You're fucked man. Ya....Jay Leno site..wanker
Nice pics of plane wreckage..lol it was a 757 not a fucking Cesna retard
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

|AIA| DAS wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:


FACT  Honda builds over 1 million cars & trucks per year in the USA, some even for export.
FACT Honda is based in Asia. THAT MAKES IT AN ASIAN MAKE. Make refers to brand idiot, not where the factory is.
Idiot, huh?  WTF do you know about HONDA child, I worked for them for the last 14 years...  For your information there are three different corporations American Honda Motor Corporation.  Honda Worldwide. and Honda of Japan. 

I don't remember my statement being hostile... Why is yours, Child.
Apologize for the hostility. Struck a cord for some reason. But anyway, Honda isn't an American brand.
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

cosmichippo wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

cosmichippo fucking clown shoes wrote:


Man, you are a naive sad soul. 9/11 was/is a SHAM fronted and funded by your govt. period. I don't give two shit s what you say. It's a Fin no brainer. The Pentagon was used to attract the media..The highest security in the world is credited to the Pentagon and they still can't fin muster a decent footage to show it's people.  WTC tragedy hasn't got half as much coverage as the Pentagon. If you had any Fin inclination to find out the truth, you would base your pathetic research on real plane wreckages.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Go watch your fucking FOX news wanker!
You are obviously a lunatic.  I've showed you photos of the wreckage... Explain the peices of the Rolls Royce jet engine found inside... Even people at Rolls Royce identified that wreckage as the engine of a 757.  You sir are either a child or just an ignorant conspiracy theorist. 

Your flash video was cute...
Quotes from people no one's ever heard of... Who the hell is Skarla?  Madonna's sister?

If you can read  read this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science … =6&c=y

PWNED!
There you go again...ignoring the facts..Why hasn't the Pentagon released Irrefutable evidence?? You're fucked man. Ya....Jay Leno site..wanker
Nice pics of plane wreckage..lol it was a 757 not a fucking Cesna retard
Missed your meds again?  Let's see... whats more respected?  Popular Mechanics, or some British conspiracy website whose sole purpose is to cast the shadow of doubt on 9/11. 

Did you actually read what thread you are in? or forum this is Debate and Serious talk - America and Everything American.  Your personal name calling is not welcome here.  Why are you even worried about it, you live in Canada.  WTF does Jay Leno or a Cessna have to do with anything... You have issues, I hope you get banned.
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

jonsimon wrote:

|AIA| DAS wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


FACT Honda is based in Asia. THAT MAKES IT AN ASIAN MAKE. Make refers to brand idiot, not where the factory is.
Idiot, huh?  WTF do you know about HONDA child, I worked for them for the last 14 years...  For your information there are three different corporations American Honda Motor Corporation.  Honda Worldwide. and Honda of Japan. 

I don't remember my statement being hostile... Why is yours, Child.
Apologize for the hostility. Struck a cord for some reason. But anyway, Honda isn't an American brand.
Here is a question for you.  We both know where Honda and Toyota started, but if they buid cars in the US with a parts content of 75% US parts or better... Doesn't that technically make it a American car?
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6929|United States of America
Nonsense, Honda is as American as our 51st state, Saudi Israelia.
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6871
IMO what we have here is "pride" coming through.  We, the US are very proud people, of our heritage, and what we've done for other countries.

I also see other countries represented and expressing their pride as well. 

I'm afraid that the current administration in the US has painted a not so pretty picture of America and American's.  For the record, we don't all own guns.  We all don't hate the rest of the world and their respective religions.  We don't all talk like we're searching for our next word.  We do have table manners.  And, believe it or not we do not want to be the world's police.  The President currently holds about a 35% approval rating, which goes to show we do not like what or how we are being portrayed in the world as well.  In summary, I believe the author of this thread was expressing his pride in America.   If those of you from other countries wish to express pride in your country, feel free to start your own thread.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6845|132 and Bush

|AIA| DAS wrote:

If you can read  read this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science … =6&c=y

PWNED!
At least give them a newer vid .
http://www.videosift.com/story.php?id=5154

Can anyone really disagree with the Movies we make , seriously.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-08-03 10:33:23)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
manio
Member
+0|6724
1. true - but the scot's invented the telephone! and as my learned friend buttersIRL pointed out the argument is irrelevant as it is just a link in the chain of technological development.
2. true - but so what. I'm sure most people aren't concerned about bf2 when there moaning about america. one is a computer game the others an entire culture and its people! a bit extreme to talk about them on the same level, no?
3. true - but only after it became politically impossible to ignore a conflict seriously affecting the rest of the developed world. i would never dispute the magnitude of america's contribution to ww2, the sacrifices you made or the lives given during the conflict. however the war had sort of started just a little bit before you joined, and then only after your own interests were threatened. presumably leaving your government of the time little or no choice but to respond. i actually find the whole ww2 arguments boring, the fact is together the good guys won - end of.

i totally understand your annoyance at people always having a dig at america. you have every right to feel proud of your country and feel that other people should have more respect. problem is your the dominant super power in the world today. people just aren't going to agree with everything your country does or stands for and no one can stop you doing as you see fit which will always cause resentment. i'm english, and my country is not exactly the most popular around the world either. partly because of our history and some of the atrocities we afflicted on other nations and partly because of a few idiots who like to support their football teams a little too vigorously. in truth you can probably find a lot of reasons to criticise england or any other country. the thing is where ever you go you will encounter idiots (problem for you guys is you've really got about 50 odd countries worth but you also encounter great people, people who can become your friend or lover. maybe even both at the same time. ok i'm rambling now. the bottom line is some people are always going to have problem with you and some are just plain ignorant. get used to it. should you really care what they think? are these people that important to you? your a big target in the world today because of your power but if it bugs you that much just remember all empires rise and fall.

Last edited by manio (2006-08-03 10:41:57)

uk-anubis-uk
Member
+21|6766
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
uk-anubis-uk
Member
+21|6766
O yeah and i remember now America only came and helped in the War because YOU got attacked by Japan!!!!!!!
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6741|Me Dad's Wilkins

uk-anubis-uk wrote:

America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
America started the Slave Trade!!!!
Dutch

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