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Topic closed

2006-07-27 02:17:57
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7098|Cologne, Germany

fadedsteve wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Hezbollah is of the SAME BREED dude, a terrorist is a terrorist. . .

I don't owe anyone a DAMN thing BTW!

I will calm it down, I dont really recall it getting that heated to begin with. . . maybe a few choice words, buts thats all in good forum fun. . .
You should stop before you get banned - besides you're damaging the arguments of those pro-Israelis who are actually making good posts.
I've made great posts, your just a stubborn Irishman with too much time on his hands!! Why don't you go outside and enjoy the countryside!!

Your not an authority on any issue guy. . . either am I, but I don't parade around on these forums like a snotty liberal acting like I got a PhD in Political Science. . .
I don't think Cam is "parading". He simply choses to weigh in differently than you. and on a personal note, I think his posts are more informative, sincere and important to the debate than most of the stuff I have read from you.
we are merely exchanging opinions here, and none is worth more than the other. degrees and whatever don't matter to me, all I care about is that your post contributes to the debate and that it is in accordance with the forum rules ( on topic, no flame or personal attack, no spam, no disrespect, the usual stuff really ).

And in that regard, you are not making a good name for yourself, I must say...

consider this your last warning. I am a patient man ( some say too patient ), but I will remove you from this debate if this behaviour continues.
2006-07-27 03:48:18
cosmichippo
Member
+5|6743|New Brunswick, Canada

CameronPoe wrote:

jonnykill wrote:

LOL you act as if the Syrian Government is doing anything and everything to stop Hezbolah and stop open support from Iran for terror strikes . Please . Israel has been under constant attack and in the iron sights of weapons every day since the 50's . One thing about Arabs is they never accept loss . One thing about Israelis is they stick together to the end . Just deal with it and STFU . You don't live there .
Hmmmmm. I think you're confusing Syria with Lebanon. There happens to be an internationally recognized border between the two countries. Why do the general Lebanese populace pay the price for the acts of a few rogue syrian/palestinian/iranian elements operating outside the law within their country?

It's your kind of attitude that sickens me. Tit for tat mindless murder and destruction only deepens problems - it will NEVER solve them. There are other ways of dealing with guerrilla warfare. If I was a Palestinian I wouldn't accept my loss either - injustice should never be tolerated - fight injustice to the bitter end I say.

I don't live there so I should STFU? Well maybe if the rest of the world stopped bankrupting your international law-violating little nation you might not be shouting STFU so readily. Israel needs the assistance of other nations. As soon as that support is cut - Israel will die.

Israelis stick together in the end? Oh yeah - the secularists and religious factions in Israel get on like a house on fire don't they? LOL.
Cameron, you really are the idiot in all of this. You start a post, to bash Israel, saying how hostile, inhumane, ruthless and predictable they are.
Do you know what the USS Liberty is/was? 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen. Let me guess, your ignorant enough to think that Israel designed and implemented that plan?It was one of the classic all-American cover-ups!! The USS Liberty was an electronic intelligence-gathering ship that was cruising international waters off the Egyptian coast on June 8, 1967. Israeli planes and torpedo boats opened fire on the Liberty in the midst of what became known as the Israeli-Arab Six-Day War.
In addition to the 34 Americans killed, more than 170 were wounded.
Israel has long maintained that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. Israel claimed its forces thought the ship was an Egyptian vessel and apologized to the United States.
It's simple..why would Israel want to attack a U.S. ship. Among them: Israel intended to sink the ship and blame Egypt because it might have brought the United States into the 1967 war. And furthered the States quest to Rule the Entire Middle East. ie. 1. The US was the first country to recognize Israel, only minutes after it was officially created in 1948  2. The United Nations has been generally hostile to Israel and often the US was her sole defender in the world body. Israel has returned the friendship by voting solidly with the US on virtually all issues.  3. After Israel became an independent country in 1948, the United States joined an embargo on weapons sales to Israel, the 1949 Tripartite Agreement on weapons. Although the US sold hundreds of millions of dollars in weaponry to Arab states during the 1950s and early 1960s, there were no sales to Israel until 1962 when the US agreed to sell to Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile. My point to that was simply to establish that the doctrine of maintaining Irael's "qualitative edge" over its neighbors was born in the war's (Yom Kipper) aftermath. 4. And how about Economically speaking; Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. Several bi national programs allow American companies and universities to benefit from Israel’s expertise in agriculture and high technology, while others aim to break down barriers to trade and cooperation between the two countries to make collaboration easier. Israel was the first country to sign a free trade agreement with the US, which has resulted in a quintupling of trade between the two countries. The US-Israel Free Trade Agreement (FTA) has served as a model for other trade agreements including the October 2000 FTA between the US and Jordan. 5.  Jews are powerful and influential in the USA. But if no Jew had ever set foot in America, the United States and Israel would tend to understand each other nonetheless--because they are two of a kind. 

So Cameron, the point being. Israel is a puppet of the US. They cannot get out of that now. Both are pick-up nations created out of ideas, with populations drawn from all over the globe; they are self-made nations in a world where most nations had nationhood handed to them on a silver platter. Don't be so quick to point your finger at someone, things are not always as they seem
2006-07-27 04:15:31
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

cosmichippo wrote:

Cameron, you really are the idiot in all of this. You start a post, to bash Israel, saying how hostile, inhumane, ruthless and predictable they are.
Do you know what the USS Liberty is/was? 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen. Let me guess, your ignorant enough to think that Israel designed and implemented that plan?It was one of the classic all-American cover-ups!! The USS Liberty was an electronic intelligence-gathering ship that was cruising international waters off the Egyptian coast on June 8, 1967. Israeli planes and torpedo boats opened fire on the Liberty in the midst of what became known as the Israeli-Arab Six-Day War.
In addition to the 34 Americans killed, more than 170 were wounded.
Israel has long maintained that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. Israel claimed its forces thought the ship was an Egyptian vessel and apologized to the United States.
It's simple..why would Israel want to attack a U.S. ship. Among them: Israel intended to sink the ship and blame Egypt because it might have brought the United States into the 1967 war. And furthered the States quest to Rule the Entire Middle East. ie. 1. The US was the first country to recognize Israel, only minutes after it was officially created in 1948  2. The United Nations has been generally hostile to Israel and often the US was her sole defender in the world body. Israel has returned the friendship by voting solidly with the US on virtually all issues.  3. After Israel became an independent country in 1948, the United States joined an embargo on weapons sales to Israel, the 1949 Tripartite Agreement on weapons. Although the US sold hundreds of millions of dollars in weaponry to Arab states during the 1950s and early 1960s, there were no sales to Israel until 1962 when the US agreed to sell to Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile. My point to that was simply to establish that the doctrine of maintaining Irael's "qualitative edge" over its neighbors was born in the war's (Yom Kipper) aftermath. 4. And how about Economically speaking; Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. Several bi national programs allow American companies and universities to benefit from Israel’s expertise in agriculture and high technology, while others aim to break down barriers to trade and cooperation between the two countries to make collaboration easier. Israel was the first country to sign a free trade agreement with the US, which has resulted in a quintupling of trade between the two countries. The US-Israel Free Trade Agreement (FTA) has served as a model for other trade agreements including the October 2000 FTA between the US and Jordan. 5.  Jews are powerful and influential in the USA. But if no Jew had ever set foot in America, the United States and Israel would tend to understand each other nonetheless--because they are two of a kind. 
So Cameron, the point being. Israel is a puppet of the US. They cannot get out of that now. Both are pick-up nations created out of ideas, with populations drawn from all over the globe; they are self-made nations in a world where most nations had nationhood handed to them on a silver platter. Don't be so quick to point your finger at someone, things are not always as they seem
Cheers for the insult - have you read the forum rules? As for your post: what exactly are you driving at? Basically you seem to be saying that we (the US) and Israel have been buddies for ages so no matter what either of us do (whether it is morally right or morally wrong) NOBODY should criticise us. Well I have to disagree with you there buddy. If I see something I judge to be wrong then I call it. I won't keep quiet on injustices. No need for the history lesson either - I'm more than aware of all of the Israel-Arab shennanigans over the past 100 years. I don't get what your point was with respect to the USS Liberty. Blind allegiance to any political entity irrespective of the acts they commit is the kind of thing that led to Hitler rising to power. I don't disagree with Israel's right to exist but evidently you probably haven't read half the posts I've made on this thread.

PS Nobody handed Ireland nationhood. We won it, with scant help from anyone else, through blood, sweat, toil and tears, thank you very much.

PPS I would find it an insult to George Washington , Thomas Jefferson & Abraham Lincoln to draw comparisons between their Americas and the Israel that unrepentantly grinds the Palestinian people into the ground. THey were men of values. Israel, sadly, have become misguided.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-27 04:18:10)

2006-07-27 04:43:03
cosmichippo
Member
+5|6743|New Brunswick, Canada

CameronPoe wrote:

Cheers for the insult - have you read the forum rules? As for your post: what exactly are you driving at? Basically you seem to be saying that we (the US) and Israel have been buddies for ages so no matter what either of us do (whether it is morally right or morally wrong) NOBODY should criticise us. Well I have to disagree with you there buddy. If I see something I judge to be wrong then I call it. I won't keep quiet on injustices. No need for the history lesson either - I'm more than aware of all of the Israel-Arab shennanigans over the past 100 years. I don't get what your point was with respect to the USS Liberty. Blind allegiance to any political entity irrespective of the acts they commit is the kind of thing that led to Hitler rising to power. I don't disagree with Israel's right to exist but evidently you probably haven't read half the posts I've made on this thread.

PS Nobody handed Ireland nationhood. We won it, with scant help from anyone else, through blood, sweat, toil and tears, thank you very much.

PPS I would find it an insult to George Washington , Thomas Jefferson & Abraham Lincoln to draw comparisons between their Americas and the Israel that unrepentantly grinds the Palestinian people into the ground. THey were men of values. Israel, sadly, have become misguided.
Yes I have read the forum rules. Whats the difference in starting a hate/bash post against a nation, and calling somebody an idiot for doing so. And your paraphrase of interpretation of what i said is wrong. It was all meant to make you realize that Israel doesn't deserve the hate that you breed towards them. All cumulative points to drive one major one home. And as far as Hitler rising to power, The US. more precisely, Precott Bush, helped Hitler rise to power. As far as Ireland goes, yes, they earned and faught their way to Independance and Freedom. Needless to say, Ireland has plenty of dirty laundry, past and present.

On your PPS...I disagree..i think presented with the history between the 2 countries over the past 60 years or so, they would strongly agree with me. They had nothing to do with any of the points that I made.
2006-07-27 05:08:47
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6776|Πάϊ

cosmichippo wrote:

Cameron, you really are the idiot in all of this. You start a post, to bash Israel, saying how hostile, inhumane, ruthless and predictable they are.
Do you know what the USS Liberty is/was? 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen. Let me guess, your ignorant enough to think that Israel designed and implemented that plan?It was one of the classic all-American cover-ups!! The USS Liberty was an electronic intelligence-gathering ship that was cruising international waters off the Egyptian coast on June 8, 1967. Israeli planes and torpedo boats opened fire on the Liberty in the midst of what became known as the Israeli-Arab Six-Day War.
In addition to the 34 Americans killed, more than 170 were wounded.
Israel has long maintained that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. Israel claimed its forces thought the ship was an Egyptian vessel and apologized to the United States.
It's simple..why would Israel want to attack a U.S. ship. Among them: Israel intended to sink the ship and blame Egypt because it might have brought the United States into the 1967 war. And furthered the States quest to Rule the Entire Middle East. ie. 1. The US was the first country to recognize Israel, only minutes after it was officially created in 1948  2. The United Nations has been generally hostile to Israel and often the US was her sole defender in the world body. Israel has returned the friendship by voting solidly with the US on virtually all issues.  3. After Israel became an independent country in 1948, the United States joined an embargo on weapons sales to Israel, the 1949 Tripartite Agreement on weapons. Although the US sold hundreds of millions of dollars in weaponry to Arab states during the 1950s and early 1960s, there were no sales to Israel until 1962 when the US agreed to sell to Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile. My point to that was simply to establish that the doctrine of maintaining Irael's "qualitative edge" over its neighbors was born in the war's (Yom Kipper) aftermath. 4. And how about Economically speaking; Israel is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. Several bi national programs allow American companies and universities to benefit from Israel’s expertise in agriculture and high technology, while others aim to break down barriers to trade and cooperation between the two countries to make collaboration easier. Israel was the first country to sign a free trade agreement with the US, which has resulted in a quintupling of trade between the two countries. The US-Israel Free Trade Agreement (FTA) has served as a model for other trade agreements including the October 2000 FTA between the US and Jordan. 5.  Jews are powerful and influential in the USA. But if no Jew had ever set foot in America, the United States and Israel would tend to understand each other nonetheless--because they are two of a kind. 

So Cameron, the point being. Israel is a puppet of the US. They cannot get out of that now. Both are pick-up nations created out of ideas, with populations drawn from all over the globe; they are self-made nations in a world where most nations had nationhood handed to them on a silver platter. Don't be so quick to point your finger at someone, things are not always as they seem
This is all very nice... but I don't see how its particularity forgives Israel for its actions against the Palestinian people. I fail to see why we should stop condemning the criminal actions of the Israeli government in the Middle East whether it's too late for them to get out of it or not.

So Israel is a puppet of the US. Or the other way around. So what? Explain if you will.

btw this topic just goes on 'n on

Last edited by oug (2006-07-27 05:12:24)

ƒ³
2006-07-27 05:23:21
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7098|Cologne, Germany

cosmichippo wrote:

...Yes I have read the forum rules. Whats the difference in (a) starting a hate/bash post against a nation, and (b) calling somebody an idiot for doing so...
well, the obvious difference is that (a) is not against the forum rules, while (b) is....

Moreover, I happen to think that cam's posts are usually very well thought-out, reasonable, and informative. I wouldn't call any of them "bashing", at least not in the general sense of the word, as used on the net.
And I wouldn't call them "hateful" either. Have you really read through all 54 pages ?

anyway, why don't you let go off the personal stuff and concentrate on the arguments. I am quite sure you can do that.
2006-07-27 05:32:07
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

cosmichippo wrote:

Yes I have read the forum rules. Whats the difference in starting a hate/bash post against a nation, and calling somebody an idiot for doing so. And your paraphrase of interpretation of what i said is wrong. It was all meant to make you realize that Israel doesn't deserve the hate that you breed towards them. All cumulative points to drive one major one home. And as far as Hitler rising to power, The US. more precisely, Precott Bush, helped Hitler rise to power. As far as Ireland goes, yes, they earned and faught their way to Independance and Freedom. Needless to say, Ireland has plenty of dirty laundry, past and present.

On your PPS...I disagree..i think presented with the history between the 2 countries over the past 60 years or so, they would strongly agree with me. They had nothing to do with any of the points that I made.
The difference is that Israel is not a person. I am not making a personal attack on a member of the forum named 'Israel'. What I am doing is criticising various aspects, a subset if you will, of Israeli policies and Israeli actions.

Everybody and every nation has skeletons in their closet. That is true. You seem to have only read a couple of my posts and made snap judgements on them alone. I have conceded all sorts of arguments with respect to atrocities perpetrated by those opposed to Israel. I'm not on some blind anti-Israel rant. I am taking facts and figures and presenting my argument rationally. Please read some more of my posts before disregarding everything I say based on just a few of the posts you have read and went on to make presumptions about.

One question: You seem to be averse to people criticising the cause that you support. Is that not a little undemocratic?

On the PPS Well my friend, I believe Abe Lincoln met with and generally showed compassion for those that had to be displaced to make way for USA - the Native Americans. I see no such compassion from the Israelis who continue to try and annex more land without reparations to the Palestinians. As such, my disagreement with you on this point holds.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-27 05:34:57)

2006-07-27 05:56:51
ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ
Banned
+69|6758
Your analogy with natve americans would work under other circumstances'

Namely that the indians would have had to attack and kill the pilgrims in regular attempts to force them out of thier land instead of trading and living with them like they did. Then the pilgrims would have had to suffer many riots and attempts to eradicate them then find foreign approval *see un* for segregating the populations to limit the violence. Furthermore after that the pilgrims would have to succeed in defending themselves from 4 different multinational coalitions that attempted to destroy them ...

Then that analogy is fair

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
2006-07-27 06:01:55
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6776|Πάϊ

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

Your analogy with natve americans would work under other circumstances'

Namely that the indians would have had to attack and kill the pilgrims in regular attempts to force them out of thier land instead of trading and living with them like they did. Then the pilgrims would have had to suffer many riots and attempts to eradicate them then find foreign approval *see un* for segregating the populations to limit the violence. Furthermore after that the pilgrims would have to succeed in defending themselves from 4 different multinational coalitions that attempted to destroy them ...

Then that analogy is fair

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
So what you're saying is that Native Americans are better off now living in shitty reservations in the middle of nowhere? Don't think so...
ƒ³
2006-07-27 06:07:53
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7098|Cologne, Germany

I think he was only comparing the "compassion" aspect of the issue, not the whole situation.
2006-07-27 06:15:48
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
I don't quite see how it's a joke. Both were displaced from their lands to make way for militarily superiour bands of immigrants. Both suffered injustices at the hands of their new overlords (I'm reading 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' at the mo, haven't finished it). I think you'll find the Sioux, Santee, Cheyenne and other tribes did resist the immigrants' presence militarily on several occasions so you are wrong on the peaceful 'trading and living with' picture.

Schuss was right with respect to the compassion aspect of my statement but other than that there are many similarities between the two plights.
2006-07-27 06:32:35
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6754|Me Dad's Wilkins

oug wrote:

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

Your analogy with natve americans would work under other circumstances'

Namely that the indians would have had to attack and kill the pilgrims in regular attempts to force them out of thier land instead of trading and living with them like they did. Then the pilgrims would have had to suffer many riots and attempts to eradicate them then find foreign approval *see un* for segregating the populations to limit the violence. Furthermore after that the pilgrims would have to succeed in defending themselves from 4 different multinational coalitions that attempted to destroy them ...

Then that analogy is fair

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
So what you're saying is that Native Americans are better off now living in shitty reservations in the middle of nowhere? Don't think so...
Most Indian Nations in America have it better than the actual Americans,  They have vast areas of land, they are tax free.  They get government subsidies, own some of the largest casinos in the world (foxwood).  There is one tribe in the northeast coastal area of the US, that only has like 300 members left, due to dying out and diminishment of the species(breeding).  Each member gets government money in the 5 figure amount per year.
2006-07-27 06:38:57
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

|AIA| DAS wrote:

oug wrote:

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

Your analogy with natve americans would work under other circumstances'

Namely that the indians would have had to attack and kill the pilgrims in regular attempts to force them out of thier land instead of trading and living with them like they did. Then the pilgrims would have had to suffer many riots and attempts to eradicate them then find foreign approval *see un* for segregating the populations to limit the violence. Furthermore after that the pilgrims would have to succeed in defending themselves from 4 different multinational coalitions that attempted to destroy them ...

Then that analogy is fair

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
So what you're saying is that Native Americans are better off now living in shitty reservations in the middle of nowhere? Don't think so...
Most Indian Nations in America have it better than the actual Americans,  They have vast areas of land, they are tax free.  They get government subsidies, own some of the largest casinos in the world (foxwood).  There is one tribe in the northeast coastal area of the US, that only has like 300 members left, due to dying out and diminishment of the species(breeding).  Each member gets government money in the 5 figure amount per year.
Well maybe the Palestinians should be given tax-free casinos...

On a more sombre note try scrolling through a couple of these (WARNING: GRAPHIC):

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-isra … illed.html

And reading these five very rational points:

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/

PS I'm well aware of the fact that there are many atrocities carried out by the Palestinians of which photos can be printed.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-27 06:52:23)

2006-07-27 07:22:24
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6992|California

CameronPoe wrote:

Well maybe the Palestinians should be given tax-free casinos...

On a more sombre note try scrolling through a couple of these (WARNING: GRAPHIC):

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-isra … illed.html

And reading these five very rational points:

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/

PS I'm well aware of the fact that there are many atrocities carried out by the Palestinians of which photos can be printed.
Once again, only one side of the story. And not for nothing, but lots of kids cry at funerals.

I can put a pic of a kid crying, and say Ahmedenijad broke into my house and killed my family.

It must be real, I have a picture of a kid crying next to the caption.

For more pics of the Zionist occupation go to:

http:/www.myspace.com/evil_jew_hater/photoshopped_evil_jews/propoganda.jpg
2006-07-27 10:25:35
GIJew88
Member
+3|6744
I suggest that all of you will just shut the fuck up. I'm sorry for talking this way, but I'm way too tired of people who talk nonesense and present nonesense. I have lived in Israel for the past 18.5 years, and was born to this reality and have a Jewish mentallity that you will never understand. I've got childhood memories of incidents and wars, the whole thing. Alot of my family members have fought in Israel's wars, some of my friends have recently joined the Israeli army and I'll be joining in about 6 months from now. Most of you seem to feel that you have figured this whole issue out: the history, the way people feel, Israeli intentions, Palestinian Intentions, the way our communities are built, the wars in the region etc. Fact is you don't know shit. I was so amazed of some posts here, and tbh, I'm tired of being amazed of your ignorance. It is very frustrating. Your whole point of view is distorted and lacks alot of information. You hardly know anything about the people who live here nor about the conflict that has led us peoples to this point. Visiting us once isn't going to make you an expert for Israeli-Palestinian affairs and history, Cameron. You seem to be a nice guy, but I strongly reccomend that you will stop that whole bullshit. The information you get from websites that have a strong political point of view and from journalists who like to describe world events in black in white isn't likely to be neutral and to-the-point.

Last edited by GIJew88 (2006-07-27 10:28:30)

2006-07-27 10:48:02
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6901

GIJew88 wrote:

I suggest that all of you will just shut the fuck up. I'm sorry for talking this way, but I'm way too tired of people who talk nonesense and present nonesense. I have lived in Israel for the past 18.5 years, and was born to this reality and have a Jewish mentallity that you will never understand. I've got childhood memories of incidents and wars, the whole thing. Alot of my family members have fought in Israel's wars, some of my friends have recently joined the Israeli army and I'll be joining in about 6 months from now. Most of you seem to feel that you have figured this whole issue out: the history, the way people feel, Israeli intentions, Palestinian Intentions, the way our communities are built, the wars in the region etc. Fact is you don't know shit. I was so amazed of some posts here, and tbh, I'm tired of being amazed of your ignorance. It is very frustrating. Your whole point of view is distorted and lacks alot of information. You hardly know anything about the people who live here nor about the conflict that has led us peoples to this point. Visiting us once isn't going to make you an expert for Israeli-Palestinian affairs and history, Cameron. You seem to be a nice guy, but I strongly reccomend that you will stop that whole bullshit. The information you get from websites that have a strong political point of view and from journalists who like to describe world events in black in white isn't likely to be neutral and to-the-point.
well said.  cameron is a cool cat.  I dont see him as an asshole like a couple of folks around here.  he got some good arguments and presents them quite nicely, even though there wrong...jk. but cameron comes from a part of the world of which i could never truly know his point of view, I could acknowledge that, same thing goes for you too bro.  shit, same thing goes for me too.  both sides of my family came from the conservative elite of Latin America in Nicaragua (Somoza) and the Dominican Republic (Trujio) but I tried my damndest to be as objective as possible.  life is too cheap to feel strongly one way or another.  like you say, nothing is black and white.
2006-07-27 11:00:23
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6889|949

GIJew88 wrote:

I suggest that all of you will just shut the fuck up. I'm sorry for talking this way, but I'm way too tired of people who talk nonesense and present nonesense. I have lived in Israel for the past 18.5 years, and was born to this reality and have a Jewish mentallity that you will never understand. I've got childhood memories of incidents and wars, the whole thing. Alot of my family members have fought in Israel's wars, some of my friends have recently joined the Israeli army and I'll be joining in about 6 months from now. Most of you seem to feel that you have figured this whole issue out: the history, the way people feel, Israeli intentions, Palestinian Intentions, the way our communities are built, the wars in the region etc. Fact is you don't know shit. I was so amazed of some posts here, and tbh, I'm tired of being amazed of your ignorance. It is very frustrating. Your whole point of view is distorted and lacks alot of information. You hardly know anything about the people who live here nor about the conflict that has led us peoples to this point. Visiting us once isn't going to make you an expert for Israeli-Palestinian affairs and history, Cameron. You seem to be a nice guy, but I strongly reccomend that you will stop that whole bullshit. The information you get from websites that have a strong political point of view and from journalists who like to describe world events in black in white isn't likely to be neutral and to-the-point.
How about if you tell us from your point of view what is happening, the reasons, and your solutions.  Criticizing people for what they think is not very conducive to this debate, but I can more or less see where you are coming from.  You are right, we don't fully know Palestinian intentions any more than you do.  Everyone is influenced in some way or another.  I am quite sure you have a distorted point of view as well, in relation to my point of view.  We cannot say one is wrong or right, just try to give insight and use logic to explain the reasons we feel the way we do.  Living in Israel does not necessarily make you an expert as well, but I am sure you have more information as to the general feeling of the Israeli public.

You can give us some insight on the way Israeli Jews think, and hopefully it will be a rational and logical argument.  You must understand that we are analyzing what we see, hear, and read, that is where our arguments are coming from.  I would love to hear your views on this whole conflict, including the reasons and activities leading up to this latest escalation.

Are you (as an Israeli Jew) not worried about how your country is perceived in the rest of the world?  Do you think your country is acting in the best interest of nonviolent Palestinians and Israelis?  Is there any other way Israel could get rid of terrorists without bombing Lebanon to oblivion?  Do you see peace happening any time soon?  Is it realistic to ask Israel to leave occupied territories and give Palestinians autonomy?  What do you think are the main causes for this conflict?  Would Israelis be opposed to socially and economically aiding a peaceful Palestinian movement?  These are all questions I hope that you would answer, but its up to you to continue this debate.  Or you could just sit back and bitch about how everyone else has no idea what is going on.  And for the record, I would say I do know what is going on, from an observational point of view.  There are certain facts here that are not debatable, and through these facts intentions can be found.  Further, we can look back at history and see certain patterns.  Hindsight is 20/20.  I live in the USA, and I still am foggy as to my government's intentions.  Perhaps Israel is more transparent in the governmental thought process.

edit:  And no, you will not get me to "Shut the fuck up."  I have a right to speak my mind just as you do.  It is not my problem if you refuse to engage in the debate and instead sit back and not offer anything constructive.  You have firsthand observations about the way of life and the treatment there, how about letting us in on some of that information?

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-07-27 11:04:59)

2006-07-27 11:36:18
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6884

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

GIJew88 wrote:

I suggest that all of you will just shut the fuck up. I'm sorry for talking this way, but I'm way too tired of people who talk nonesense and present nonesense. I have lived in Israel for the past 18.5 years, and was born to this reality and have a Jewish mentallity that you will never understand. I've got childhood memories of incidents and wars, the whole thing. Alot of my family members have fought in Israel's wars, some of my friends have recently joined the Israeli army and I'll be joining in about 6 months from now. Most of you seem to feel that you have figured this whole issue out: the history, the way people feel, Israeli intentions, Palestinian Intentions, the way our communities are built, the wars in the region etc. Fact is you don't know shit. I was so amazed of some posts here, and tbh, I'm tired of being amazed of your ignorance. It is very frustrating. Your whole point of view is distorted and lacks alot of information. You hardly know anything about the people who live here nor about the conflict that has led us peoples to this point. Visiting us once isn't going to make you an expert for Israeli-Palestinian affairs and history, Cameron. You seem to be a nice guy, but I strongly reccomend that you will stop that whole bullshit. The information you get from websites that have a strong political point of view and from journalists who like to describe world events in black in white isn't likely to be neutral and to-the-point.
How about if you tell us from your point of view what is happening, the reasons, and your solutions.  Criticizing people for what they think is not very conducive to this debate, but I can more or less see where you are coming from.  You are right, we don't fully know Palestinian intentions any more than you do.  Everyone is influenced in some way or another.  I am quite sure you have a distorted point of view as well, in relation to my point of view.  We cannot say one is wrong or right, just try to give insight and use logic to explain the reasons we feel the way we do.  Living in Israel does not necessarily make you an expert as well, but I am sure you have more information as to the general feeling of the Israeli public.

You can give us some insight on the way Israeli Jews think, and hopefully it will be a rational and logical argument.  You must understand that we are analyzing what we see, hear, and read, that is where our arguments are coming from.  I would love to hear your views on this whole conflict, including the reasons and activities leading up to this latest escalation.

Are you (as an Israeli Jew) not worried about how your country is perceived in the rest of the world?  Do you think your country is acting in the best interest of nonviolent Palestinians and Israelis?  Is there any other way Israel could get rid of terrorists without bombing Lebanon to oblivion?  Do you see peace happening any time soon?  Is it realistic to ask Israel to leave occupied territories and give Palestinians autonomy?  What do you think are the main causes for this conflict?  Would Israelis be opposed to socially and economically aiding a peaceful Palestinian movement?  These are all questions I hope that you would answer, but its up to you to continue this debate.  Or you could just sit back and bitch about how everyone else has no idea what is going on.  And for the record, I would say I do know what is going on, from an observational point of view.  There are certain facts here that are not debatable, and through these facts intentions can be found.  Further, we can look back at history and see certain patterns.  Hindsight is 20/20.  I live in the USA, and I still am foggy as to my government's intentions.  Perhaps Israel is more transparent in the governmental thought process.

edit:  And no, you will not get me to "Shut the fuck up."  I have a right to speak my mind just as you do.  It is not my problem if you refuse to engage in the debate and instead sit back and not offer anything constructive.  You have firsthand observations about the way of life and the treatment there, how about letting us in on some of that information?
I beleive what he is saying is that all of us need a better education on the plight of Israel.  Maybe he does have time to elaborate on Israel's view of the situation, however depending on which part of Israel he resides, he may be dodging Katusha sp? rockets and preparing for his military service.

GIJEW88, good luck my man.  There are many in the world who try to understand the situation and do rely on the media.  So you beg to wonder, am I better off not knowing, or having to listen to 5 news stations to get a good overall view.  I am siding with Israel in this situation.  I believe peace has been tried and failed miserably. over and over again.
2006-07-27 11:40:39
captain_itchy_pants
Member
+13|6832

CameronPoe wrote:

Then combat the guerrilla elements with counter-guerrilla warfare - not conventional warfare. Addressing the root causes of the problems that give rise to guerrilla warfare might also help - but we all know the Israelis are incapable of such rational and reasonable action.
Quick question. Should Israel counter with car bombs and suicide bombing instead? It just doesnt seem like the "right " thing to do.

I think in the middle east the root cause to the problems are the fact that Israel is there and the Islamic terrorists dont want it to be. If Israel is gone, where to next? We know they want Spain as well! There is obviously no clear solutions to this but I do agree that Israel has every right to defend itself and to counter any assault on its people and military.
2006-07-27 11:44:36
']['error
Banned
+630|6901|The Netherlands
naah just trow one of these between those monkey country's and there will be no more fighting lol

https://kyrom.free.fr/Atomic/Nuke.jpg
2006-07-27 12:45:52
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

GIJew88 wrote:

I suggest that all of you will just shut the fuck up. I'm sorry for talking this way, but I'm way too tired of people who talk nonesense and present nonesense. I have lived in Israel for the past 18.5 years, and was born to this reality and have a Jewish mentallity that you will never understand. I've got childhood memories of incidents and wars, the whole thing. Alot of my family members have fought in Israel's wars, some of my friends have recently joined the Israeli army and I'll be joining in about 6 months from now. Most of you seem to feel that you have figured this whole issue out: the history, the way people feel, Israeli intentions, Palestinian Intentions, the way our communities are built, the wars in the region etc. Fact is you don't know shit. I was so amazed of some posts here, and tbh, I'm tired of being amazed of your ignorance. It is very frustrating. Your whole point of view is distorted and lacks alot of information. You hardly know anything about the people who live here nor about the conflict that has led us peoples to this point. Visiting us once isn't going to make you an expert for Israeli-Palestinian affairs and history, Cameron. You seem to be a nice guy, but I strongly reccomend that you will stop that whole bullshit. The information you get from websites that have a strong political point of view and from journalists who like to describe world events in black in white isn't likely to be neutral and to-the-point.
GI - I do sympathise with the Israelis - especially for the generations born into present day Israel. THey must feel extremely persecuted and dismayed with the hatred all around them. That website I flashed up: I conceded at the bottom of the post that one could easily post a similar Israeli POV site. I just came across it and decided to post it. Sites like that are not what forms my opinion. Obviously none of the rest of us here are going to be able to fully empathise with either the Palestinian or Israeli viewpoint but we do have the right as forum member to forward our views. Arguing the points is constructive as sometimes people realise new things and change their minds about things when proven wrong, including myself. I reiterate that we can't fully empathise with Israelis or Palestinians but I'd like you to note that I'm not just some bandwagon channel-hopper with an opinion from a website. THe region interests me greatly and I have read a lot about the history. But again that is no substitute for living it. One point you should understand though is that being Irish colours my opinion of the situation as we fought an oppressive foreign overlord that tried to destroy our language and culture for 8 centuries before finally winning our freedom. Don't lambast me for using the term oppressive foreign overlord btw - I'm just using it to describe Britain. In a manner similar to the way in which Israel was created the Brits sent bands of the landed gentry supported by troops across a largely defenseless Ireland and began plantations (settlements) - confiscating all Irish lands, dividing them up among lords and sending anyone who was Irish west of the River Shannon (the poorest land in Ireland). They outlawed catholicism, the irish language, irish ownership of any land, irish ownership of livestock worth more than £5, votes for Irish people, political representation for Irish people, Irish entry into the legal profession, Irish inheritance of protestant land, Irish adoption of orphans, Irish ownership of firearms, Irish intermarriage with Brits, among a great number of other restrictions. Not to mention forced evictions of Irish peasants for not paying ludicrous rents on shanty town accommodation and exporting food from our country while 5m starved to death or left the country during the potato famine. Cromwell's first acts upon landing in Ireland were to decimate the towns of Drogheda and Dundalk with artillery fire. That to me mirrors aspects of what goes in the Palestinian territories. Let's face it: Israel is a pretty affluent country and has settled that land with immigrants from abroad (the original 1948 state of Israel that is) - from the Palestinian POV Israel is the equivalent of said oppressive foreign overlord.
I don't want to upset you and I'm not some Palestinian 'Hamas are great' hardliner - I'm just posting my opinions.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-27 13:20:11)

2006-07-27 14:11:16
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6817
Can anyone tell me what the conditions in Palestine were pre-1948 era? Because the way I look at it, Israel has done a lot with that land.
2006-07-27 14:34:18
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6838|SE London

rawls2 wrote:

Can anyone tell me what the conditions in Palestine were pre-1948 era? Because the way I look at it, Israel has done a lot with that land.
Israel has done a lot with the land, massive agricultural exporter - doesn't mean they should have the rest of the Palestinians land (or Lebanon). Perhaps if the Palestinians had the US subsidies the Israelis get they would have been able to do the same, although I doubt it, Islamic states do have a tendancy not to work very well unless they are an extremely hard line regime such as exists in Iran and Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Saddam.

I've consistently been appalled by the racist comments I've heard from many Israelis (who seem to have a very poor opinion of the UN) on an Israeli site about this http://www.mideasttruth.com. I am very against the widely held Arab view that the state of Israel has no right to exist, but I am also against the view held by many Israelis that all Arabs are terrorists and have no right to their land - and so should be destroyed.

"There is a solution, but it is not an appetizing one. It requires doing what no one really wants to do, but if the Enemy does it and continues unabated and unchallenged....
The Solution: A Genocidal War of Attrition that wars down the Moslem to a servile state of obedeiance to the United States and Israel." Post in pro Israeli forum, which typifies the attitude taken by the majority of the Israeli population, which is how Ariel Sharon (who has committed many attrocities against the Arab peoples of the lands surrounding Israel) was elected. A 1st world state throwing it's weight around like this is totally unacceptable - they should know better and find a more civilised solution. I'm also finding it very amusing that the 'invincible' IDF are having so many problems taking a village held by less than 100 guerilla fighters.

I just hope the Chinese team sent in to investigate the death of the Chinese UN observer (which includes numerous senior figures from the ministry of defence as well as Senior Col. Dai Shao'an, deputy director of the Peacekeeping Affairs Office) get things sorted out.
2006-07-27 14:44:58
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6817
Those UN workers were actually Iranian Secret Agents.
2006-07-27 14:50:46
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6817

oug wrote:

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

Your analogy with natve americans would work under other circumstances'

Namely that the indians would have had to attack and kill the pilgrims in regular attempts to force them out of thier land instead of trading and living with them like they did. Then the pilgrims would have had to suffer many riots and attempts to eradicate them then find foreign approval *see un* for segregating the populations to limit the violence. Furthermore after that the pilgrims would have to succeed in defending themselves from 4 different multinational coalitions that attempted to destroy them ...

Then that analogy is fair

Comparing the plight the indians suffered to the Palestinians is a joke..
So what you're saying is that Native Americans are better off now living in shitty reservations in the middle of nowhere? Don't think so...
Hell yeah!! Although they suffer a high rate of alcohalism they are doing very well. We gave them land and said do what you will. And they built casino resorts which are now funding schools, hospitals, housing, etc. Further more, the generations of Indians to come will be even more better off because they will take full advantage of schools, hospitals, housing, etc. The Palestinians could take lessons from our Native Americans on how to continue to exist and progress their race into the future.

Topic closed

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