Poll
Choice the one u like!
| Israel destroy Hezbollah | 59% | 59% - 76 | ||||
| Hezbollah destroy Israel | 29% | 29% - 37 | ||||
| Im gay! | 11% | 11% - 14 | ||||
| Total: 127 | ||||||
yeah, in the 1800's the area had a heavy jewish poplulation, while many of the muslims were still mostly nomadic, the jews built up the area and breought it into the industrial age, with labor from migrant arabs who then settled there when the work was done, the jews were still not allowed to have a state, as it would have meant for one arab leader or emir or whatever to relinquish some powerSondernkommando wrote:
Before there was Israel, the area was administed by the British Authority. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman Empire. Before that, well, we're talking Renaissance times.
So, Israel, Palestine and Jordan all have equal claims to part of the area. Division was made and Jordan and Israel are satisfied, but the Palestinians are not. The rest of the Arabs are just anti-Jewish and using whatever excuse they can to spill blood.
As for the Lebanese, if they allow Hezbollah to run the Southern part of the country, and refer to them as "protectors", then they can suffer when Hezbollah acts as it can only do - by inciting violence.
first a quad then a triple, thats just gay.
Both sides are fucked. Probably Hezbollah are more fucking messed becuase they hide within civilians (who can't exactly kick them out) so when Israel go after them, innocents die too. However, Israel should look at some other way rather than using dodgy bombs/pilots to take out targets. I dunno, i'm not a military expert but there must be a more effective way without causing so much collateral. Don't you guys think?
you can thank America for the bunker busting DU bombs that Israel used on the UN today
Last edited by Spumantiii (2006-07-25 17:52:47)
your welcome
those are our troops I thought conservatives cried when troops die
last time I checked we were on the same side
last time I checked we were on the same side
Last edited by Spumantiii (2006-07-25 18:20:57)
PEOPLE cry when troops die, not just conservativesSpumantiii wrote:
those are our troops I thought conservatives cried when troops die
last time I checked we were on the same side
to say nothing of the fact that the oppositional nature of your post contradicts the unity you then cite, Spumantiii ... sorryKEN-JENNINGS wrote:
PEOPLE cry when troops die, not just conservatives
Last edited by PuckMercury (2006-07-25 18:33:07)
true enough. Contradictions frustrate me
yeah, but they're often interesting to observe
twas snarkiness
well now your being padantic, im going to for the sake of argument say Israel has the right to be there as they owned the country first, 730AD! The land was taken from them by countries around them, cant be arsed to actually find the bit about that in my book on the subject as its 3 in the morning, maybe i will tomorrow.Bubbalo wrote:
And to be sure of a Jewish majority Zionists killed whole villages of Palestinians.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
Israel is democratic, most of the middle east is not.Over 100 Lebanese dead, most believed to be non-combatants.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
Isreal tries to hit only millitary targets,8 Israeli soldiers, 4 civilians.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
Hezbollah tries to kill innocent women and children.
(note, numbers correct as of printing of July 24 Time)Not if you trace it back 1948, as the Lebanese do.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
Israel was attacked, had soldiers killed and kidnapped, and rockets fired into their country before any of this even started.Because if Israel wins more people flock to the terrorist cause.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
How can you possibly want Hezbollah to win?
Last edited by Vilham (2006-07-25 18:52:48)
No, the troglodytes were there first, its their land! Please do not argue who was there first, as that is a moot point 5000 years later.Vilham wrote:
[well now your being padantic, im going to for the sake of argument say Israel has the right to be there as they owned the country first, 730AD! The land was taken from them by countries around them, cant be arsed to actually find the bit about that in my book on the subject as its 3 in the morning, maybe i will tomorrow.
I agree, shallow and padantic
I hope Hezbollah beats the shit out of them, even though I know it won't happen.
well if we are saying that then we should forget what happened 50 years ago, times change GET OVER IT! Israel belongs to the Jews now accept it!KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
No, the troglodytes were there first, its their land! Please do not argue who was there first, as that is a moot point 5000 years later.Vilham wrote:
[well now your being padantic, im going to for the sake of argument say Israel has the right to be there as they owned the country first, 730AD! The land was taken from them by countries around them, cant be arsed to actually find the bit about that in my book on the subject as its 3 in the morning, maybe i will tomorrow.
There seems to be some disagreement over whether Israel has a right to the land. I'd like to trace the historical sovereignty of the land starting with the Ottoman Empire, who I believe everyone will consider to have had control and ownership. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated in World War 1, it was broken up and what is known as Israel today was given to Britain. I certify that as it was a legal peace treaty that gave authority to the League of Nations to divy up the land, and the League's subsequent decision to put the land in question under British control that established this, it was a legal transfer of power from the now dead Ottoman Empire to the British. Britain declared in the Balfour declaration that it "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"..."it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". After the second world war, the British chose to allow the current population on the land have control of it. The UN proposed a partition of the land into two states, one for Israel and the other for the arabic palestinians. Jerusalem would be under the control of the UN, a neutral third party that could allow for sort of common ownership of the city by both Israelis and Palestinians. The Jews accepted this proposal, but the Arabs rejected it. In 1948, when the British pulled out of the region the Jews declared the free state of Israel in accordance with the 1947 UN partition plan.
So up to this point the Israelis have cooperated with international authorities, and the establishment of the state of Israel appears to be fully legal, as the people gained legal right to govern their own land as did the Palestinians. The original Israel was much smaller than it is today, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan. A two state system was clearly set up. However, the Arabs were uncompromising. As soon as the new state was created forces from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq converged on the infant government. If you accept the authority of the UN as a mediating international arrangement where nations can discuss problems with words rather than guns, then Israel's creation was just and the Arabs were wrong to attack.
The Israelis pushed back their enemies, and in the subsequent armistice, they controlled what is considered Israel today with the exception of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and one half of Jerusalem. The adjusted borders are shown here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements. This means that Israel has the right to control all land in the original Palestine Mandate with the exception of the Gaza and West Bank at this point. In 1956, after continuous border skirmishes, the Egyptian nationalization of the Suez Canal and subsequent closure of said canal to Israeli shipping, and the Egyptian blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba, the Suez War ensued. Israeli, British, and French forces intervened, and took the Gaza Strip and Sinai Penninsula. This was an agressive act by all three parties, who withdrew a year later under pressure by the United States (were not a warmongering ppl like some think). These troops were replaced with a UN Emergency Force to keep peace in the area.
The next chapter in this ongoing conflict comes in 1967, when the United Arab Military Command amassed troops at Israel's borders, and Egypt closed the straits of Nasser and Tiran and insisted that the UN Emergency Force leave Egypt. Israel responded with a preemptive air assault which obliterated the air forces of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. This was followed with the rout of Arab ground forces by the IDF, and subsequent cease fire. Some people may say that Israel was in the wrong, but I believe they did the only prudent thing. If someone who you've had conflict with in the past pulls a gun on you, you don't wait for him to shoot, you respond. Israel gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the formerly Jordanian-controlled West Bank of the Jordan River, including East Jerusalem. The UN proposed that Israel return all of this in return for total peace and recognition of Israel, which was not given by the Arabs. n retaliation for repeated Egyptian shelling of Israeli positions along the Suez Canal, Israeli planes made deep strikes into Egypt in the 1969-1970 "war of attrition". In early 1969, fighting broke out between Egypt and Israel along the Suez Canal. The United States helped end these hostilities in August 1970, but subsequent U.S. efforts to negotiate an interim agreement to open the Suez Canal and achieve disengagement of forces were unsuccessful. This is another instance of Arab agression towards Israel. Yet another instance of this agression came in 1973, when on Yom Kippur the combined forces of Syria and Egypt launched a suprise attack on Israel. Three weeks later, Israel had again defeated the Arabs, and the UN had a peacekeeping in force. In 1974, Israel signed a Disengagement of Forces agreement with Syria and Egypt. The Arabs retaliated with an oil embargo to all nations trading with Israel.
Now a lot of people say that a lot of America's policy is dominated by oil concerns, but this embargo pushed a plethora of countries onto the side of the Arabs, namely NOT America. Japan was one of the quickest responders to being cut off from oil, threatening to cut off relations with Israel if it didn't give back territory gained during the 6 Day War. Evidence of growing international disapproval of Israel came in 1975 when the UN declared that Zionism is a form of racism. While the Arabs were within their rights to withold trade goods, was the response of the international community appropriate? I think not.
Between 1977 and 1978, Egypt and Israel made peace, again with the help of the United States. This made Egypt the first Arab nation to recognize Israel's right to exist. It also set up a framework for a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. The rest of the Arab world's response to this was to eject Egypt from the Arab League, and to kill the Egyptian leader.
In that same year, fighting broke out between Israel and Palestinian forces operating out of Lebanon. Israel crossed into Lebanon, but withdrew later that year with the establishment of the UN Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) peacekeeping force (the people still there today). This peacekeeping force failed to keep the peace however, and in 1981, after more fighting between the two groups, US President Ronald Reagan secured a peace treaty between the two parties. However, the peace was short lived because of the PLO's repeated artillery attacks on Israel from Lebanon. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to drive out the PLO, who was also attacking Lebanese Christian Forces. The PLO withdrew from Lebanon, and by 1985 only a small security force and militia remained of the original Israeli occupation forces. The remainder of these forces were withdrawn in 2000. I believe the Israelis acted just as any other nation would in this instance, but others do not see it this way.
As you can see, Israel has always acted in self defense, as it has this time. Those of you who think Hezbollah is right to attack Israel, those of you who think Israel needs to be destroyed, those of you who think Israel does not have the right to exist in all territory it currently controls; are clearly mistaken about various facts. I will agree that Israel is not perfect, that they have engaged in many questionable affairs against none other than the United States, including the Lavon Affair and attacking the USS Liberty. However, very generally, Israel is a nation that has tried for peace at every turn, only to be attacked yet again by the Arab people. Hezbollah is just the most recent attacker of Israel, and will probably not be the last. Israel will do what it always does, it will crush the enemy uncompromisingly. I just hope that the international community doesn't further its disapproval for the Israeli state under pressure from the oil holding Arabs.
So up to this point the Israelis have cooperated with international authorities, and the establishment of the state of Israel appears to be fully legal, as the people gained legal right to govern their own land as did the Palestinians. The original Israel was much smaller than it is today, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan. A two state system was clearly set up. However, the Arabs were uncompromising. As soon as the new state was created forces from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq converged on the infant government. If you accept the authority of the UN as a mediating international arrangement where nations can discuss problems with words rather than guns, then Israel's creation was just and the Arabs were wrong to attack.
The Israelis pushed back their enemies, and in the subsequent armistice, they controlled what is considered Israel today with the exception of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and one half of Jerusalem. The adjusted borders are shown here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements. This means that Israel has the right to control all land in the original Palestine Mandate with the exception of the Gaza and West Bank at this point. In 1956, after continuous border skirmishes, the Egyptian nationalization of the Suez Canal and subsequent closure of said canal to Israeli shipping, and the Egyptian blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba, the Suez War ensued. Israeli, British, and French forces intervened, and took the Gaza Strip and Sinai Penninsula. This was an agressive act by all three parties, who withdrew a year later under pressure by the United States (were not a warmongering ppl like some think). These troops were replaced with a UN Emergency Force to keep peace in the area.
The next chapter in this ongoing conflict comes in 1967, when the United Arab Military Command amassed troops at Israel's borders, and Egypt closed the straits of Nasser and Tiran and insisted that the UN Emergency Force leave Egypt. Israel responded with a preemptive air assault which obliterated the air forces of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. This was followed with the rout of Arab ground forces by the IDF, and subsequent cease fire. Some people may say that Israel was in the wrong, but I believe they did the only prudent thing. If someone who you've had conflict with in the past pulls a gun on you, you don't wait for him to shoot, you respond. Israel gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and the formerly Jordanian-controlled West Bank of the Jordan River, including East Jerusalem. The UN proposed that Israel return all of this in return for total peace and recognition of Israel, which was not given by the Arabs. n retaliation for repeated Egyptian shelling of Israeli positions along the Suez Canal, Israeli planes made deep strikes into Egypt in the 1969-1970 "war of attrition". In early 1969, fighting broke out between Egypt and Israel along the Suez Canal. The United States helped end these hostilities in August 1970, but subsequent U.S. efforts to negotiate an interim agreement to open the Suez Canal and achieve disengagement of forces were unsuccessful. This is another instance of Arab agression towards Israel. Yet another instance of this agression came in 1973, when on Yom Kippur the combined forces of Syria and Egypt launched a suprise attack on Israel. Three weeks later, Israel had again defeated the Arabs, and the UN had a peacekeeping in force. In 1974, Israel signed a Disengagement of Forces agreement with Syria and Egypt. The Arabs retaliated with an oil embargo to all nations trading with Israel.
Now a lot of people say that a lot of America's policy is dominated by oil concerns, but this embargo pushed a plethora of countries onto the side of the Arabs, namely NOT America. Japan was one of the quickest responders to being cut off from oil, threatening to cut off relations with Israel if it didn't give back territory gained during the 6 Day War. Evidence of growing international disapproval of Israel came in 1975 when the UN declared that Zionism is a form of racism. While the Arabs were within their rights to withold trade goods, was the response of the international community appropriate? I think not.
Between 1977 and 1978, Egypt and Israel made peace, again with the help of the United States. This made Egypt the first Arab nation to recognize Israel's right to exist. It also set up a framework for a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. The rest of the Arab world's response to this was to eject Egypt from the Arab League, and to kill the Egyptian leader.
In that same year, fighting broke out between Israel and Palestinian forces operating out of Lebanon. Israel crossed into Lebanon, but withdrew later that year with the establishment of the UN Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) peacekeeping force (the people still there today). This peacekeeping force failed to keep the peace however, and in 1981, after more fighting between the two groups, US President Ronald Reagan secured a peace treaty between the two parties. However, the peace was short lived because of the PLO's repeated artillery attacks on Israel from Lebanon. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to drive out the PLO, who was also attacking Lebanese Christian Forces. The PLO withdrew from Lebanon, and by 1985 only a small security force and militia remained of the original Israeli occupation forces. The remainder of these forces were withdrawn in 2000. I believe the Israelis acted just as any other nation would in this instance, but others do not see it this way.
As you can see, Israel has always acted in self defense, as it has this time. Those of you who think Hezbollah is right to attack Israel, those of you who think Israel needs to be destroyed, those of you who think Israel does not have the right to exist in all territory it currently controls; are clearly mistaken about various facts. I will agree that Israel is not perfect, that they have engaged in many questionable affairs against none other than the United States, including the Lavon Affair and attacking the USS Liberty. However, very generally, Israel is a nation that has tried for peace at every turn, only to be attacked yet again by the Arab people. Hezbollah is just the most recent attacker of Israel, and will probably not be the last. Israel will do what it always does, it will crush the enemy uncompromisingly. I just hope that the international community doesn't further its disapproval for the Israeli state under pressure from the oil holding Arabs.
First, we don't need a history lesson, and if I did, I wouldn't get it from here, but thank you for taking the time to write that. Now on to the facts...iamangry wrote:
As you can see, Israel has always acted in self defense, as it has this time. Those of you who think Hezbollah is right to attack Israel, those of you who think Israel needs to be destroyed, those of you who think Israel does not have the right to exist in all territory it currently controls; are clearly mistaken about various facts. I will agree that Israel is not perfect, that they have engaged in many questionable affairs against none other than the United States, including the Lavon Affair and attacking the USS Liberty. However, very generally, Israel is a nation that has tried for peace at every turn, only to be attacked yet again by the Arab people. Hezbollah is just the most recent attacker of Israel, and will probably not be the last. Israel will do what it always does, it will crush the enemy uncompromisingly. I just hope that the international community doesn't further its disapproval for the Israeli state under pressure from the oil holding Arabs.
Israel has not always acted in self-defense. I do not have the time right now to go into detail, but should you request it, I will bring up instances that show your statement as untrue.
Israel does not have a right to exist in its present territory. Bottom line! Give the Arabs back their land, and there will be no more Arab/Israel conflict. Judaism/Islam conflict maybe, but that is not what this is about.
Israel has not tried for peace at every turn! That is like saying the US has tried to remain peaceful. Laughable at best.
I disapprove of the Israeli state's ACTIONS, not their right to exist. I wonder if maybe that is why the international community is disapproving?
You show me the war where they have attacked unprovoked. Ive covered every major one theyve been in, maybe you know of one I missed.
Israel does have the right to exist in its present territory because it has won it in defensive wars. They were willing to live with two states like the UN proposed, but the Arabs werent. In fact, they were so opposed to the idea that they tried to destroy Israel. Israel is a Jewish state and Arabs are almost exclusively Muslim, so whats the difference between an Arab/Israel conflict and an Islam/Judaism conflict?
You say that Israel has not tried for peace at every turn. You may be correct, but they have at most opportunities. The peace with Egypt came after the Israeli Prime Minister invited the Egyptian Prime Minister to Israel. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank in an attempt to secure peace with the Palestinians. Show me where the Arabs have done anything for peace aside from choosing not to suicide bomb the Israelis for a period of time.
Israel is shunned by the international community because theyre afraid the Arabs will cut them off from the oil if they support Israel...its happened before. Israel does what any other self preserving country does to protect itself and its interests, its just that the Arabs make it so that contradicts the interests of other countries.
Israel does have the right to exist in its present territory because it has won it in defensive wars. They were willing to live with two states like the UN proposed, but the Arabs werent. In fact, they were so opposed to the idea that they tried to destroy Israel. Israel is a Jewish state and Arabs are almost exclusively Muslim, so whats the difference between an Arab/Israel conflict and an Islam/Judaism conflict?
You say that Israel has not tried for peace at every turn. You may be correct, but they have at most opportunities. The peace with Egypt came after the Israeli Prime Minister invited the Egyptian Prime Minister to Israel. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank in an attempt to secure peace with the Palestinians. Show me where the Arabs have done anything for peace aside from choosing not to suicide bomb the Israelis for a period of time.
Israel is shunned by the international community because theyre afraid the Arabs will cut them off from the oil if they support Israel...its happened before. Israel does what any other self preserving country does to protect itself and its interests, its just that the Arabs make it so that contradicts the interests of other countries.
nope, i dont say that!Spumantiii wrote:
Are you saying every Lebanese that Israel kills deserves to die? Man woman or child, or old?Lisik wrote:
u right, its not the same fight! its a junk of that fight! and its a big piece of junk! hezbollah its a big organization!! fathers, mothres and kids! thousand of people!! and what i have to prove? that thousands of hezbollah peoples whant to kill us? i think u have to be a blind to not see that!!!Spumantiii wrote:
you don't need to remind me I know alot about it. 67 to 1 kill ratios by the IAF.
BUT how can you punish them when you have no semblance of what you were fighting for before? Before it was a case of survival now it is just vengeful. And everyone knows you need no help in a war with those countries, the point is aren't you supposed to be trying to prove them wrong? You make us look bad by crossing borders and killing old women
and be sure, the number of dead terrorist that u see on tv, is totaly wrong!!
"Winning" land in a war is not a valid argument for the retention of land by the Israeli government. Of course Israelis were willing to go along with the proposal, because before they had nothing. I do not want to get into an argument about the legality of the land grab by Israel, perhaps you would like to make a thread about it to discuss. The USA is almost exclusively Christian, and Afghanistan and Iraq are almost exclusively Muslim, does that make the "War on Terrorism" a religious war? The logic of my argument still stands.iamangry wrote:
Israel does have the right to exist in its present territory because it has won it in defensive wars. They were willing to live with two states like the UN proposed, but the Arabs werent. In fact, they were so opposed to the idea that they tried to destroy Israel. Israel is a Jewish state and Arabs are almost exclusively Muslim, so whats the difference between an Arab/Israel conflict and an Islam/Judaism conflict?
The peace with Egypt was realized through compromise. Both sides made a concerted effort to broker peace. Israel removed all soldiers from the Gaza Strip. They still control the economy, the infastructure, the naval space, and the air space. Most of the international community, including the US, still classifies the Gaza Strip as Israeli occupied. The West Bank is considered by the United Nations and most of the international community to be Israeli occupied. Hardly a concession for peace. I do agree that the Arab countries need to pressure all Arabs to promote a more peaceful agenda.[iamangry wrote:
]You say that Israel has not tried for peace at every turn. You may be correct, but they have at most opportunities. The peace with Egypt came after the Israeli Prime Minister invited the Egyptian Prime Minister to Israel. The Israelis pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank in an attempt to secure peace with the Palestinians. Show me where the Arabs have done anything for peace aside from choosing not to suicide bomb the Israelis for a period of time.
The United States is the biggest supporter of Israel in the entire world, and gets plenty of oil from the Middle East. That is not a valid argument.iamangry wrote:
Israel is shunned by the international community because theyre afraid the Arabs will cut them off from the oil if they support Israel...its happened before. Israel does what any other self preserving country does to protect itself and its interests, its just that the Arabs make it so that contradicts the interests of other countries.
How about this option: Israel destroys the Middle East? That would solve the Palestian/Islamic terrorism problem as well.. and in fact it is more realistic.... considerin no country that has attacked Israel has managed to pull off a victory.-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:
I am still suprised when I see people who think like you do. Israel is democratic, most of the middle east is not. Isreal tries to hit only millitary targets, Hezbollah tries to kill innocent women and children. Israel was attacked, had soldiers killed and kidnapped, and rockets fired into their country before any of this even started. How can you possibly want Hezbollah to win?Bubbalo wrote:
Neither, but if I had to choose, Israel destroyed. That would take away much of Islamic terrorism support base (those upset about Israel, sp. Palestinians in refugee camps).
Last edited by USAFDude_1988 (2006-07-27 01:34:20)
you take israel out then your gonna have islamic terrorism against other muslims. shiites v sunnis. secular v theocracy. Butterflies and Rainbows are NOT gonna happen if you take Israel out the picture. fundamentalists are always looking for new causes to expand their power base.
I think the persians kicked them out a few hundred years ago
I think the persians kicked them out a few hundred years ago
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-07-27 01:29:01)
Ill say one thing. Dont start something you can't finish. The Arab nations that invaded Israel started it and lost, its their fault and their fault alone that the west bank and other areas of Palestine are under Israel's control.