BF2S Forums Who backs the immidiate ceasefire

ozzi92 wrote:

doesn't look like ur reading what i'm posting but o well.
And Israel was approved by the UN here is some info i found from people that know what their talking about:
You have the Balfour declaration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_1917
"On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own sovereign State."
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_indepe … _legal.php
and maybe u should read this http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/history.shtml
and if u want here info about Israel and how it started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Est … _the_State

It pains me to rake over stuff I've discussed in other threads about a million times but I'll say this.
1) I'm well aware of all of the events surrounding the creation of the state of Israel and I've read all of those wiki-links before.
2) The Balfour Declaration clearly states: nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. What gave the brits - a post WWI caretaker of the region - the right to go dividing up a largely arab land is beyond me.
3) I believe the rest of the world (the UN) did not have the ethical right to have the Palestinians pay for the crimes of the Germans. The UN aside - the land taken by Israel in the 1948 war well exceeded that agreed in the partition plan (which incidentally the arabs never agreed to).

Ozzi - Israel is a reality now and I respect that Israel must exist and has a right now to exist. I just think they need to mend fences with the Palestinians who themselves have recognised that Israel is a reality (even Yasser recognised the state of Israel).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-26 04:02:05)

while it may be true that we are all human and make mistakes, that's not an argument that seems valuable to me under the given circumstances. We are not talking about a 12-year-old boy dropping mum's favourite coffee mug or ramming dad's 1972 corvette against a telephone pole.

This is the IDF, one of the most advanced, professional armies in the ME, with exceptional intel. Simply saying it was mistake and apologize is not enough. UN observers are dead and I think the UN and their families deserve a better explanation.

ozzi92 wrote:

First you're right it's more then dropping mums favorite coffe jugg because this is the IDF trying to find Hezballoh hiding in buildings that look all the same, a pilot could of easily mistaken the UN bunker building to a normal building with Hezballoh hiding in it, and if that was the case then Israel can't give any other explanation and do anything but say sorry.

..and like i said before as good as out army is and as good as the mossad is we are still humans we make mistakes.

The UN had asked Israel not to, even by mistake, drop anything near the observationers bunker..

One word: Coordinates

They were surely given to the pilots where to make the drop.

CameronPoe wrote:

Here is an open question to all readers. Why would you imagine that the US and UK are the only countries IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that are failing to fully condemn Israel for their over-agressive response and to demand a ceasefire? Please submit your reasons why so we can argue the points.

The entire world is acting the way it is acting for the same reason the entire world sat idle while Adolf Hitler started running amok around Europe.  Even the USA sat on our asses until we were provoked.

We need to learn from history, or else it will repeat itself.  A policy of appeasement and "I won't bother you if you don't bother me" attitude leads to psychotic people getting too power hungry for the good of humanity.

Regardless of who is at fault in this particular incident, we need to acknowledge that every time there is a ceasefire in the middle-east, it is only temporary.  Never has a cease-fire lasted...are we not witnessing a war right now?  cease-fires do nothing more than allow both sides to re-stock and regroup. 

A ceasefire treats the symptoms while actually worsening the root cause by allowing both sides to get stronger.

Now...

To those people who condemn Israel for killing civilians and attacking infrastructure, this is what is happening:

Hezbollah is hiding among civilians in civilian neighborhoods.  Fact: Hezbollah is using ambulances to transport troops.  Fact: Israel has recovered stockpiles of weapons/surveillance equipment that Hezbollah hid that was manufactured by and in Iran.  by bombing bridges and other such infrastructure, Israel took out Hezbollah's ability to re-stock.

This is a war, people.  War is Hell.  there is no RESPAWN.  there is no FORGIVE TEAM KILLER?  This is the real thing.  Every bullet in every gun of every soldier/terrorist in that area of the world is intended to take the life of another person.  Israel knows this.  The rest of the world is singing Cumbayah, but is that relevant?

Lastly, consider this hypothesis:

If the radical militant Islamists were disarmed tomorrow, there would be peace in the middle east.  If Israel were disarmed tomorrow there would be genocide.

edit: G3's post
purty much what I was going to post, the UN's constant calling for ceasefires only results in preserving the status quo at the expense of true freedom and allowing the militants to regroup and re-arm, they can't solve any problems with a ceasefire, no war in history has ever been won at a negotiation table, peace has only been obtained first through superior firepower and then finalized in treaties after one side has fallen. The only further action that needs to be taken is for these countries controlled by the "peace loving nation of islam" to start to invest in their own infrastructure and bring their civilizations into the 20th century for starters, no that's not a typo, they are still living out the nomadic tribal wars of the pre-ottoman era, then they can perhaps join the rest of us in the 21st century, education=freedom=peace=prosperity=wealth, once this fact is recogninzed and they realize they have more to gain by working with and learning from each other instead of fighting each other then true and final peace will be obtained, the "neutral" arab nations aren't helping matters by squandering the profits from histories greatest natural resource on yachts, horse races, and sky scrapers instead of colleges, utilities and social programs (yes, kr@cker said social programs, they are necessary as long as they are focused on giving a hand up instead of a hand out)

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-07-26 08:04:48)

G3|Genius wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Here is an open question to all readers. Why would you imagine that the US and UK are the only countries IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that are failing to fully condemn Israel for their over-agressive response and to demand a ceasefire? Please submit your reasons why so we can argue the points.

The entire world is acting the way it is acting for the same reason the entire world sat idle while Adolf Hitler started running amok around Europe.  Even the USA sat on our asses until we were provoked.

We need to learn from history, or else it will repeat itself.  A policy of appeasement and "I won't bother you if you don't bother me" attitude leads to psychotic people getting too power hungry for the good of humanity.

Regardless of who is at fault in this particular incident, we need to acknowledge that every time there is a ceasefire in the middle-east, it is only temporary.  Never has a cease-fire lasted...are we not witnessing a war right now?  cease-fires do nothing more than allow both sides to re-stock and regroup. 

A ceasefire treats the symptoms while actually worsening the root cause by allowing both sides to get stronger.

Now...

To those people who condemn Israel for killing civilians and attacking infrastructure, this is what is happening:

Hezbollah is hiding among civilians in civilian neighborhoods.  Fact: Hezbollah is using ambulances to transport troops.  Fact: Israel has recovered stockpiles of weapons/surveillance equipment that Hezbollah hid that was manufactured by and in Iran.  by bombing bridges and other such infrastructure, Israel took out Hezbollah's ability to re-stock.

This is a war, people.  War is Hell.  there is no RESPAWN.  there is no FORGIVE TEAM KILLER?  This is the real thing.  Every bullet in every gun of every soldier/terrorist in that area of the world is intended to take the life of another person.  Israel knows this.  The rest of the world is singing Cumbayah, but is that relevant?

Lastly, consider this hypothesis:

If the radical militant Islamists were disarmed tomorrow, there would be peace in the middle east.  If Israel were disarmed tomorrow there would be genocide.

Good post.
Just one thing we've had a good long cease fire/peace with both Egypat and Jordan so it is possible for peace to happen in the middle east.

And here is a sentnce for you (not sure who said it)
"Does that chose to not remember history are bound to reapet it" this was said about the holocost.

(sorry for spelling i'm at school and my miracle button won't work -_-

THE U.N.'s RECORD VIS A VIS ISRAEL



Prior to the Madrid Conference, of '91, the office of Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir commissioned Shai Ben-Tekoa to do a statistical analysis of U.N. voting vis a vis Israel. The following is a summary of Mr. Ben-Tekoa's research.

Summary



Security Council:
175 Total Resolutions
74 Neutral
4 Against the perceived interests of an Arab state or body
97 Against Israel

General Assembly:
Cumulative Number of Votes cast with/for Israel: 7,938.
Cumulative Number of Votes cast against Israel: 55,642.

I posted this same thin in another thread I will also post the same challenge.

I can find, all day long, site after site that proves the UN is anti-Semitic. I challenge all of you, especially you cameronpoe to site IN FACT,any proof of the contrary.

if israel wasnt attacked on all sides and kicked some serious soviet funded ass, then that map might look more like the partition plan of 1947

No ceasefire, until Hezbollah has been severely crippled/taken out. 

However, the one thing I do agree with Israel nay sayers, is the amount of money they receive from us, the USA.  Since their inception in 1948, Israel has received a total of  $84,854,827,200 from the USA. 

Thats an insane number!!!!

I can understand some start up funds, but JESUS CHRIST thats a lot of cash to one nation!!

I do think that the reason why we are so hated in the Mid East is due to this cash bundle Israel receives.  I say the new doctrine should be to stop funding Israel, still fight terrorists as well as support those(nations) who do.  If we are going to have a friendlier middle east, we need to stop our one sided slant towards one country.  We need to still fight the arab terrorists, but distance ourselves from Israel, so we have more credibility.

Israel is grown up now, and obviously can handle their own business (economically and militarily).  They are still our ally, and we should support them, but we need to stop the money tree, cause this kind of funding is costing US taxpayers too much bank for little return!!!

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-26 18:36:13)

spastic bullet wrote:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … n_1947.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … e_1947.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … s-map2.gif

Creating the state of Israel by the UN, and they way they have been treated by the UN since are 2 different things. Please post some facts on behalf of the your argument that the UN is not biased against Israel by their voting and their resolutions.


Also according to most of you the Jews "stole"  Palestine, and was not approved by the UN. So which is it you are going to argue?

If the UN did it right to begin with, they should have created TWO states instead of just Israel.  If they did that, we might not have the conflict we see today. . .

Instead the Palestinians had a terrorist named Yasser Arafat ruin their lives for 30+ years fighting Israel! Its a sad state of affairs over there!!

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-26 18:43:47)

What's your proof that they were anti-Semitic?

lowing wrote:

spastic bullet wrote:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … n_1947.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … e_1947.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … s-map2.gif

Creating the state of Israel by the UN, and they way they have been treated by the UN since are 2 different things. Please post some facts on behalf of the your argument that the UN is not biased against Israel by their voting and their resolutions.

The facts, as anybody who looks at those 3 pictures in sequence can see, are:

1. The original UN partition plan for Palestine was extremely generous to the Israel side, in light of the sparseness of Jewish settlements there at the time (1947)
2. Present-day Israel is much bigger than even that extremely generous partition plan
3. Israel has illegally occupied Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem for nearly 40 years

Pretty obvious, really.  Not like your frankly bizarre assertion that, since Israel can get one country (i.e. yours) to go along with pretty much anything, practically the whole of the rest of the world must be anti-Semitic.  Have you any idea how insane that sounds?

lowing wrote:

Also according to most of you the Jews "stole"  Palestine, and was not approved by the UN. So which is it you are going to argue?

Show me where I am being inconsistent without trying to put words in my mouth.