-=NHB=- Bananahands
Member
+58|6528

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Israel was attacked by its arab neighbors and thats the land that they conquered. Tough luck to those that attacked Israel. Thats a part of war. The jews never tried to blow themselves up on buses in Germany. They were killed in a genocide.

The soldier was a millitary target? Excuse me but was a war going on? No. Because of that there now is a war going on and you can thank hezbollah for that.

Humans right atrocities? Im sorry if I fail to see the equality of blowing yourself on a bus knowingly killing men, women, and chidlren and the use of lasar guided missles directed at millitary targets. Yes there have been some mistakes but the two things are uncomparable. The palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do in certain arab countries. Of course there will be road blocks and walls constructed though. Do you want to allow terrorists to flow freely into Israel?
The bottom line is that you cant change history.  Both sides have made mistakes and I admit that openly but the difference is that Israel is attempting to create peace. The muslim world dosent want that peace. They refuse to allow Israel to exist. Look at Iran and Syria for example.
Jerusalem was not Arab occupied.  It was supposed to be under international control.  Israel controls it now, and official state policy is that it is theirs; they will never give it back.

LGM missiles are used, as are dumb bombs.  Please do not dismiss carpet bombing of civilian centers and precision guided munitions attacking military targets, because its not the same.

Israel is attempting to create peace?  Really?  Bombing a place to oblivion creates peace, wow, where have I been the last 25 years of my life?

Bananahands, like I posted before, read up on this conflict before dismissing it for what your uninformed mind thinks it is.  It is obvious you have no knowledge on the subject based on what you post.  Stop posting rhetoric and post real information.  If and when you post real arguments for your reasoning, I will start addressing them.
Yes Israel has attempted to promote peace. What do you call the pullout of Gaza last year? That was an attempt. Now they are bombing Lebanon because they were provoked to war by Hezbollah. Of course dumb bombs are also used, yet you libs get angry when we ship laser guided bunker busters. We used alot of dumb bombs in the gulf war also. Even "dumb" bombs are more accurate than the rockets Hezbollah are firing.  As for "carpet bombing" of civilian centers you need to get over yourself. Carpet bombing would be Dresden not what is going on in Lebanon.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6602|949

Both sides have in the past attempted to promote peace.  Israel bombing Lebanese civilians is not promoting peace in the region right now, it is creating more tension. 

Israel pulled all its troops and settlers out of Gaza but still controls the infastructure, economy, naval space, and air space.  Most of the international community (including the US) still consider the Gaza Strip occupied. 

Bombing Lebanon is not the way to deal with terrorism.  Bottom line.  Bomb all you want, you are not going to kill them all.  But you will kill a lot of civilians.  Killing civilans may help rationalize terrorism to disenchanted youths and others affected.  Not saying that legitimizes it, but it certainly doesn't help.

Where did I say I was angry at the shipments of LGMs?   Where did I say I was a liberal, let alone angry?  I have said many times, I refuse to associate myself with any political party.  I like to analyze with an open mind with the best interest of my fellow organisms and myself in mind.

Carpet bombing was the wrong description to use, you are right.  They are bombing strategic targets and civilian targets with a plethora of weapons, how about that?

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-07-25 23:24:38)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6613
some might say that Israel pulled out of gaza knowing that Hamas was going to act up so they could be justified in sending more permanent troops. food for thought.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

?  I have said many times, I refuse to associate myself with any political party.  I like to analyze with an open mind with the best interest of my fellow organisms and myself in mind.
outstanding philosophy

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-07-25 23:32:42)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

rawls wrote:

Camreron not to be mean but you sound like one of the hippies from the 60's. Youll grow up one day and realize the world is not always the way it should be. Bad things happen they always will. Remember its human nature to fight. I hardly find it possible for there to be world peace in general. There will always be conflict somewhere.

BTW- Hamas and Hezbollah are like madams that pick up/shelter/feed runaway girls to prostitute them in brothels.
I hardly think a hippy would have condoned the violent expulsion of the british from my nation with the use of guerilla warfare so I don't think I quite fit the 'hippy' stereotype. I certainly don't disagree with the fact that it's human nature to fight - we are intelligent enough now to be able to work around such primal instincts though. Having said that there are times when we MUST fight. It is just a shame that the likes of Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs resort to underhand methods. When they target military installations to rid them of the presence of their occupiers they have my full support. BTW I wouldn't agree with them overstepping the 1948 boundaries.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

fadedsteve wrote:

The world will never be the way that guy(cameronpoe) wants it to be, he just likes antagonizing people into an argument on the threads.  For christs sake, the guy thinks the EU will be the next superpower, I'm mean CMON!!! The EU is a bunch of individualists sharing a currency THATS ALL!!! You think France, Germany, UK will all get along as a superpower together??? History will tell you that will NEVER happen!!

Plus the Europeans dont have any BALLS to step up to world conflict AT ALL! They much prefer to sit in their "cocoons" and let others slug it out.  They claim they are the USA's friends, but we all know they secretly aren't.  I hope next time there is a conflict in Europe, we(USA) stay THE FUCK out of it!!! And let those pansy fucks fight it out amongst themselves. 

Except for the Brits, there is no other country I can see that is overtly our friend in Europe! The French and the Germans can BLOW ME!!! Same with Spain too!! The Italians are too busy chasing their sisters around trying to hit on them!!
Constructive. Very constructive. You renew my faith in Americans. LOL. BTW Where did I say the EU would be the next superpower - that's bollocks - it'll be China without a doubt.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6613

CameronPoe wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

The world will never be the way that guy(cameronpoe) wants it to be, he just likes antagonizing people into an argument on the threads.  For christs sake, the guy thinks the EU will be the next superpower, I'm mean CMON!!! The EU is a bunch of individualists sharing a currency THATS ALL!!! You think France, Germany, UK will all get along as a superpower together??? History will tell you that will NEVER happen!!

Plus the Europeans dont have any BALLS to step up to world conflict AT ALL! They much prefer to sit in their "cocoons" and let others slug it out.  They claim they are the USA's friends, but we all know they secretly aren't.  I hope next time there is a conflict in Europe, we(USA) stay THE FUCK out of it!!! And let those pansy fucks fight it out amongst themselves. 

Except for the Brits, there is no other country I can see that is overtly our friend in Europe! The French and the Germans can BLOW ME!!! Same with Spain too!! The Italians are too busy chasing their sisters around trying to hit on them!!
Constructive. Very constructive. You renew my faith in Americans. LOL. BTW Where did I say the EU would be the next superpower - that's bollocks - it'll be China without a doubt.
cameron Im taking that last comment to another thread
rootbeer73
Member
+24|6555|in a small dark place
been going on for ages, i dont give a fuk
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Israel was attacked by its arab neighbors and thats the land that they conquered. Tough luck to those that attacked Israel. Thats a part of war. The jews never tried to blow themselves up on buses in Germany. They were killed in a genocide.

The soldier was a millitary target? Excuse me but was a war going on? No. Because of that there now is a war going on and you can thank hezbollah for that.

Humans right atrocities? Im sorry if I fail to see the equality of blowing yourself on a bus knowingly killing men, women, and chidlren and the use of lasar guided missles directed at millitary targets. Yes there have been some mistakes but the two things are uncomparable. The palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do in certain arab countries. Of course there will be road blocks and walls constructed though. Do you want to allow terrorists to flow freely into Israel?
The bottom line is that you cant change history.  Both sides have made mistakes and I admit that openly but the difference is that Israel is attempting to create peace. The muslim world dosent want that peace. They refuse to allow Israel to exist. Look at Iran and Syria for example.
1) There is more to their human rights violations than laser-guided missiles. Bulldozing homes? Internment? Extra-judicial killing? Cutting through peoples lands with a ruddy great wall (that should have been built entirely on Israeli land)? Making transport impossible? Confiscation of land? Beatings? Targetted assassinations where several civilians usually also die? I don't see much difference to be honest, on balance. Palestinians will remain angry until they have some measure of human rights and parity of esteem with Israelis. Affluence breeds non-chalance - if the Palestinians had it better they wouldn't go around blowing themselves up. There wouldn't need to be checkpoints if Israel got the fuck out of the west bank.
2) An Israeli arab I met in Tel Aviv asked me if I liked Israel - I wasn't sure if he was an arab - and I said 'Yeah, it's OK'. He responded 'I hate Israel'.
3) Your exaclty right. We can't change history. We do have an opportunity however to see that a best-case solution be sought for the current situation. Palestine has recognised Israel's right to exist. Israel's real problems lie further afield.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

rootbeer73 wrote:

been going on for ages, i dont give a fuk
Then don't post.
=LSR= EddieNI
Member
+7|6519

CameronPoe wrote:

I hardly think a hippy would have condoned the violent expulsion of the british from my nation with the use of guerilla warfare so I don't think I quite fit the 'hippy' stereotype.
You my friend, are a cock! Northern Ireland is, and always will be, part of the United Kingdom. It did not need liberating and last time I checked, the Army was still there. I see now how you can justify the Palestinian 'struggle' as you no doubt see it as the bile spouted by sinn fein during the troubles was very similar in rhetoric and made up of the same old shit!

Terrorists attack 'legitimate' targets and that's ok, but as soon as the ruling power fights back and kills a few terrorist wankers (that's what they are mate, not freedom fighting guerillas) there is all hell on about the heavyhandedness of the response. What are ruling powers supposed to do, just constantly sit back and let these pricks rule the roost and bomb their way to reach their idealogical goals? If you continue to justify Hezbollah/Hamas/(dare i mention the IRA) actions, then you are nothing more than a sad deluded little man with a very narrow and blinkered view of what actually goes on in this world.

For Palestinians, see hard line Republicanism. For Hezbollah, see the IRA. Same shit, different country.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

=LSR= EddieNI wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I hardly think a hippy would have condoned the violent expulsion of the british from my nation with the use of guerilla warfare so I don't think I quite fit the 'hippy' stereotype.
You my friend, are a cock! Northern Ireland is, and always will be, part of the United Kingdom. It did not need liberating and last time I checked, the Army was still there. I see now how you can justify the Palestinian 'struggle' as you no doubt see it as the bile spouted by sinn fein during the troubles was very similar in rhetoric and made up of the same old shit!

Terrorists attack 'legitimate' targets and that's ok, but as soon as the ruling power fights back and kills a few terrorist wankers (that's what they are mate, not freedom fighting guerillas) there is all hell on about the heavyhandedness of the response. What are ruling powers supposed to do, just constantly sit back and let these pricks rule the roost and bomb their way to reach their idealogical goals? If you continue to justify Hezbollah/Hamas/(dare i mention the IRA) actions, then you are nothing more than a sad deluded little man with a very narrow and blinkered view of what actually goes on in this world.

For Palestinians, see hard line Republicanism. For Hezbollah, see the IRA. Same shit, different country.
To clarify - I condone attacks on military targets not on civilians so don't tar me as some Real IRA punter. Also you may not be aware of this but the country in which I live - the 26 county Republic of Ireland was born out of guerrilla warfare. Another thing buddy - demographically speaking the 6 counties will be ours, democratically, within the next 50 years - not that it matters now we're all part of the EU.

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6811|Cologne, Germany

I think a common misconception Cameron faces here is that people seem to think that just because he criticizes Israel's actions that also means he supports terrorist activities by Hamas or Hezbollah.

I believe he has said on numerous occassions that he does not support or condone such terrorist activities. One can oppose terrorist activities ( rocket attacks, suicide bombings, IED's ) and still rightfully critcize Israel's actions as out of line, out of proportion and  generally wrong, if you will.

So people, let go off the hate, stereotypes and generalizations and try to discuss sincerely here.

and no personal attacks, please. Those are against the forum rules and I will sanction verbal abuse by anybody, provoked or not. I know it's hard, but if you cannot keep a level head, this section is just not for you...

thank you. *turns of PA*
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6460|Menlo Park, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Bottom line is you spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME argueing on these threads!!!

I will say it again. .  .

ARGUEING ON THE INTERNET IS LIKE RUNNING IN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS, EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOUR STILL  R E T A R D E D!!!  and by the looks of it, you aren't winning your arguments!!

Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region, they are our allies and we should support them! NOT sympathize with some Islamo-fascist ragheaded, bearded, burqa wearing, AK-47 waving, DOUCHEBAGS!!! Taking carving knifes and cutting innocent peoples heads the fuck off!!!!

YOU NEED TO SEE A PROCTOLOGIST because YOU HAVE SERIOUS RECTAL CRANIAL INVERSION!!!!

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-26 03:36:21)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

fadedsteve wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Bottom line is you spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME argueing on these threads!!!

I will say it again. .  .

ARGUEING ON THE INTERNET IS LIKE RUNNING IN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS, EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOUR STILL  R E T A R D E D!!!  and by the looks of it, you aren't winning your arguments!!

Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region, they are our allies and we should support them! NOT sympathize with some Islamo-fascist ragheaded, bearded, burqa wearing, AK-47 waving, DOUCHEBAGS!!! Taking carving knifes and cutting innocent peoples heads the fuck off!!!!

YOU NEED TO SEE A PROCTOLOGIST because YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ARSE!!!
Intelligent retort as always from FadedSteve. Does his post dignify a response even? Cheers for the personal attack btw, nice touch. Nice way to shoot yourself in the foot too - criticising someone for participating in debate threads on the net whilst doing the same yourself. You're obviously a very intelligent and intellectual human being, not in the slightest bit racist or lacking in understaning of cultural differences. I want to be just like you.
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6460|Menlo Park, CA
I am intellegent, college educated in fact (Univ of Oregon, Eugene) thanks for asking. . .

I understand cultural differences and respect them, but when they infringe on my buildings in NYC and my allies ability to defend themselves, I get a tad PISSED!! Do you have a poli sci major dude?? Doesnt say in your profile hmm. .  . .

Its easy to monday morning quarterback on countries/politicians and actions they take AFTER THE FACT!!

But if I want to watch some douchebag monday morning quarterback all day, I will watch Sean Salisbury on NFL live! Your all over these threads, do you do anything else with your time? I myself participate yes, but not nearly at the magnitude you do. . . . I have to keep up with a job/girlfriend/bill paying etc. 

And you DO have your head up your arse in regards to this issue.  You may be a nice guy in person, but your politics are unreal. . .

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-26 04:06:09)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6811|Cologne, Germany

fadedsteve wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Bottom line is you spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME argueing on these threads!!!

I will say it again. .  .

ARGUEING ON THE INTERNET IS LIKE RUNNING IN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS, EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOUR STILL  R E T A R D E D!!!  and by the looks of it, you aren't winning your arguments!!

Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region, they are our allies and we should support them! NOT sympathize with some Islamo-fascist ragheaded, bearded, burqa wearing, AK-47 waving, DOUCHEBAGS!!! Taking carving knifes and cutting innocent peoples heads the fuck off!!!!

YOU NEED TO SEE A PROCTOLOGIST because YOU HAVE SERIOUS RECTAL CRANIAL INVERSION!!!!
you might want to check your language. Do people actually read the forum rules ?

I think you owe Cameron an apology...but then, that's just me.

And btw, the point of these aubforums is to debate. You are in no position to attack someone personally just because he choses to participate on a different level than you do.

Calm down, try to stay on topic, or you will be banned. If you are as intelligent and mature as you claim to be, I suggest you act like it.

And btw, good job of mixing the Israel - Lebanon conflict with Iraq. Last time I checked, Hezbollah hadn't executed an american with a carving knife...
spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|6511|vancouver

fadedsteve wrote:

[...] Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region [...]
Which "region" would that be, then?  The region known as "Israel"?
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6460|Menlo Park, CA

B.Schuss wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Bottom line is you spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME argueing on these threads!!!

I will say it again. .  .

ARGUEING ON THE INTERNET IS LIKE RUNNING IN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS, EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOUR STILL  R E T A R D E D!!!  and by the looks of it, you aren't winning your arguments!!

Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region, they are our allies and we should support them! NOT sympathize with some Islamo-fascist ragheaded, bearded, burqa wearing, AK-47 waving, DOUCHEBAGS!!! Taking carving knifes and cutting innocent peoples heads the fuck off!!!!

YOU NEED TO SEE A PROCTOLOGIST because YOU HAVE SERIOUS RECTAL CRANIAL INVERSION!!!!
you might want to check your language. Do people actually read the forum rules ?

I think you owe Cameron an apology...but then, that's just me.

And btw, the point of these aubforums is to debate. You are in no position to attack someone personally just because he choses to participate on a different level than you do.

Calm down, try to stay on topic, or you will be banned. If you are as intelligent and mature as you claim to be, I suggest you act like it.

And btw, good job of mixing the Israel - Lebanon conflict with Iraq. Last time I checked, Hezbollah hadn't executed an american with a carving knife...
Hezbollah is of the SAME BREED dude, a terrorist is a terrorist. . .

I don't owe anyone a DAMN thing BTW!

I will calm it down, I dont really recall it getting that heated to begin with. . . maybe a few choice words, buts thats all in good forum fun. . .

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-26 04:17:18)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6531

fadedsteve wrote:

ARGUEING ON THE INTERNET IS LIKE RUNNING IN THE SPECIAL OLYMPICS, EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOUR STILL  R E T A R D E D!!!  and by the looks of it, you aren't winning your arguments!!
Which is funny because you, yourself, are arguing.

fadedsteve wrote:

Israel is the ONLY I repeat ONLY democracy in the region,
Other than Egypt, Palestine (who were then punished for it), and Lebanon.

fadedsteve wrote:

YOU NEED TO SEE A PROCTOLOGIST because YOU HAVE SERIOUS RECTAL CRANIAL INVERSION!!!!
Brain surgeon might be more useful.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6525

fadedsteve wrote:

Hezbollah is of the SAME BREED dude, a terrorist is a terrorist. . .

I don't owe anyone a DAMN thing BTW!

I will calm it down, I dont really recall it getting that heated to begin with. . . maybe a few choice words, buts thats all in good forum fun. . .
You should stop before you get banned - besides you're damaging the arguments of those pro-Israelis who are actually making good posts.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-26 04:32:15)

=LSR= EddieNI
Member
+7|6519

CameronPoe wrote:

To clarify - I condone attacks on military targets not on civilians so don't tar me as some Real IRA punter. Also you may not be aware of this but the country in which I live - the 26 county Republic of Ireland was born out of guerrilla warfare. Another thing buddy - demographically speaking the 6 counties will be ours, democratically, within the next 50 years - not that it matters now we're all part of the EU.

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Just proves my point about how you think, you can condone terrorist attacks on innocent soldiers patroling the streets, off duty policemen and any member of the Prison service. BUT, should any terrorist get killed at the hands of the security forces (even when engaged in a terrorist act), you and all your cronies are up in arms about a 'shoot to kill policy' and demanding public enquiries from the very Government you despise. Smacks totally of double standards mate, hate to disappoint you.

I for one think a shoot to kill policy should've been adopted (as it was strenuiously denied) and all Isreal are doing against Hezbollah it that very same thing only they are up front about it. At the end of the day, a terrorist shoots to kill so why shouldn't the attacked become the attacker?
arson
Member
+99|6606|New York

=LSR= EddieNI wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

To clarify - I condone attacks on military targets not on civilians so don't tar me as some Real IRA punter. Also you may not be aware of this but the country in which I live - the 26 county Republic of Ireland was born out of guerrilla warfare. Another thing buddy - demographically speaking the 6 counties will be ours, democratically, within the next 50 years - not that it matters now we're all part of the EU.

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Just proves my point about how you think, you can condone terrorist attacks on innocent soldiers patroling the streets, off duty policemen and any member of the Prison service. BUT, should any terrorist get killed at the hands of the security forces (even when engaged in a terrorist act), you and all your cronies are up in arms about a 'shoot to kill policy' and demanding public enquiries from the very Government you despise. Smacks totally of double standards mate, hate to disappoint you.

I for one think a shoot to kill policy should've been adopted (as it was strenuiously denied) and all Isreal are doing against Hezbollah it that very same thing only they are up front about it. At the end of the day, a terrorist shoots to kill so why shouldn't the attacked become the attacker?
How many children did Israel kill today?
=LSR= EddieNI
Member
+7|6519

arson wrote:

=LSR= EddieNI wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

To clarify - I condone attacks on military targets not on civilians so don't tar me as some Real IRA punter. Also you may not be aware of this but the country in which I live - the 26 county Republic of Ireland was born out of guerrilla warfare. Another thing buddy - demographically speaking the 6 counties will be ours, democratically, within the next 50 years - not that it matters now we're all part of the EU.

Bottom line here: I justify certain actions - not all actions. Keep that in mind.
Just proves my point about how you think, you can condone terrorist attacks on innocent soldiers patroling the streets, off duty policemen and any member of the Prison service. BUT, should any terrorist get killed at the hands of the security forces (even when engaged in a terrorist act), you and all your cronies are up in arms about a 'shoot to kill policy' and demanding public enquiries from the very Government you despise. Smacks totally of double standards mate, hate to disappoint you.

I for one think a shoot to kill policy should've been adopted (as it was strenuiously denied) and all Isreal are doing against Hezbollah it that very same thing only they are up front about it. At the end of the day, a terrorist shoots to kill so why shouldn't the attacked become the attacker?
How many children did Israel kill today?
And how many did Hezbollah kill?
Pop To Ster
Philosiraptor
+45|6502|Edmonds, WA
Not as much as Israel.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6614|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA
Bottom line, Israel feels they have a right to EVERYTHING they touch, and they are emboldened by the fact that my country, the good ole U.S., blindly allows them to do whatever they want.  Israel knows that if they start getting the crap beat out of them by anyone we will rush to their aid and bail them out.

fadedsteve: Hezbollah is NOT of the same breed.  They are labeled a terrorist organization by us because they pose a threat to Israel.  Always remember that Hezbollah exists today because of the terrorist State called Israel.  It was formed in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

Israel is not targeting Hezbollah, regardless of what they say.  They are trying to destroy the whole southern section of Lebanon without regard to who is there, hoping to get Hezbollah in the process.  Fact remains, their main goal is the destruction of that area and they don't care who they kill.

After seeing them bomb/kill the only witnesses to their atrocities yesterday (the UN observers), their actions have only strengthened my belief that they don't want anyone to see what they are really doing...indiscriminate killing on a MASS scale.

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