BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

You can keep your cocoon. Unlike you we arent afraid to stand up for whats right in the world. If there is ever an earthquake or natural disaster we are the first ones there. If any country, Kuwait for example, is invaded and seeks our help we usually help them to the best of our ability. People hate us because they see that we are powerful. No matter how much good we do in the world there will still be those that hate us. If we want to give democracy a chance in the middle east or support our allies when they are attacked by Hezbollah, then let them hate us. I would hate to ever see the day when we become a "cocoon" full of people scared of their own shadow.

Unfortunately my friend, "USA: and "right in the world" don't go well together. Take at look at your Post-World War 2 history when you decided to meddle in the sovereignty of democratic nations simply because they wanted to help out their own people. Countries that nationalized their oil and gas and fruits and mines because they wanted the profits to go to their citizens not the american corporations.

Take Guatemala for example, the ousted Jacobo Arbenz because he nationalised the fruit plantations which hurt an american fruit company so the USA ousted a DEMOCRATICALLY elected progessive government in the name of american profit.

Fact: America gives the least percentage of its GDP to countries in foreign aid out of all the countries in the world. You don't help people out as much as you think you do, you help yourselves out and wish to dominate the little guy so you can have a few extra bucks.

The reason the rest of the world hates you isn't because you are powerful, ("oh look we have power, arent we special, too bad we dont have health care for all our citizens and a large percentage of our population lives below the poverty line") it's because you match round like you own the entire world and enforce so much suffering in the lives of innocent people.

Ireland doesn't care about terrorist attacks for one reason, and that reason is that they arent a target. Ireland doesn't march around the world trying to enforce capitalism onto people. Ireland respects other nations sovereignty and because of this, they will never be attacked by terrorists. The USA brought 9-11 on itself by interfering too much in the way the whole world is run.

The USA has never given democracy a chance, heck in your last 2 democratic elections there has been massive amounts of evidence that electoral fraud was commited, there is evidence you have been involved in  tampering with the recent Mexican election and ousted the democratically elected leader of Venezuela. You've been responsible for countries going down the toilet. You've interfered in Italy, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Guatemala, Mexico, Chile, Brazil, Nicaragua, Cuba, Panama, Grenada.........the list goes on and on.

The USA needs to take a hard look at itself and realise that its unjust actions bear serious consequences.

Fubar/fox wrote:

Just something i found on the Internet and what i think covers my opinion very well.
Cause what is happening now is having an adverse affect Israel is not destroying Hezbollah its making it stronger. With this raid it would prob capture and kill some Hezbollah but after that how manny wronged Lebanon would think about joining it?? its much like eta in Ireland it will not be solved by brute force that only makes it wors.


http://www.israelblog.org/1153631143/index_html

"What should Israel do? Just sit on its hands while Hezbollah rains missiles on it?"

Answer: Exactly! The statement that Hezbollah has been constantly attacking Israel over the past six years is just a big lie. Since Israel withdrew from Lebanon, the border has been quite calm, except for very minor incidents and skirmishes.

It was precisely the calm border that was putting Sheikh Nasrallah under increasing international pressure to disarm. His main excuse not to, was that Hezbollah needed arms to defend Lebanon against Israeli aggression. But what is he defending if no attacks on Lebanon are taking place?

Nasrallah also prides himself in scrupulously abiding by international law and only responding to "Zionist provocations." In fact, Hezbollah did start this incident by firing some Katyushas and capturing the Israeli soldiers. But the massive Israeli attack gave him the legitimacy to respond to Israeli violence with counter-violence. When he bombs Haifa and Israeli gun-boats, when his soldiers fight against Israeli ground troops, he can now honestly claim he is defending Lebanon against Israeli attacks.

The best Israeli response would have been a diplomatic one - to use this incident to point out that Hezbollah is armed to the teeth and out of control. Israel's restraint would have put Hezbullah in a bad light, and legitimized the central government's demands against Hezbullah. The international community could strengthen the Lebanese government and help it disarm Hezbullah, without it being seen as a "collaborator" with Israel.

Force is always an option. In fact, the threat of force is usually far more effective than its actual use. But Israel never said, "put your arms down or else." Instead, Israel acted like a big, scared bully and started firing in all directions. The result is that Israel, not Hezbullah, is seen as out of control and the Lebanese central government has been weakened. Despite the anger of many Lebanese against Hezbullah, many more support its actions. It will be far more difficult to bring pressure to bear to disarm Hezbullah now, since it is once more basking in its role as the defender of "Arab honor" against "Zionist aggression." Any government trying to disarm Hezullah, will be seen as "collaborating with the Zionists."

QFE +1

fadedsteve wrote:

We have been giving you points, the POINT IS, is that you will disagree even if YOU ARE WRONG!

ENJOY YOUR COCOON!!! Can't wait till your little bubble bursts and you see the enemy for who they really are!!

But I will tell you this though. . .I won't EVER put up with a leftist, liberal, defeatist asshole running the show in our country!!! Thats why I vote republican, and thats why I will CONTINUE to vote republican!

I wonder what enemy you are talking about. who in the world would be interested in attacking Ireland ?

CameronPoe wrote:

The Brits suffered many civilian atrocities during the 70s, 80s and 90s at the hands of various IRA factions. Did the Brits respond by bombing Dundalk, Drogheda or Dublin in the Republic? The answer is no. Is there relative peace in Northern Ireland now? The answer is yes.

Maybe if the British government had a spine and gave the IRA the 'war' they always claimed to be in then there wouldn't have been 3 decades of shite. Trouble is, unlike Israel, the British were far too afraid of what America would say to do anything!

CameronPoe wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Losing? You haven't exactly offered any uncounterable arguments to the orginal posting. My opinion is steadfast and my points remain valid. If you make a rational point then I'll concede the point and agree. You just haven't made any strong enough points for me so far.

You havent answered anything. You said that Israel should have invaded on land because "Hezbollah isnt a threat on the ground".

I then said " I guess you havent heard of a little thing called IEDs". You have yet to respond to that.

Oh yeah - aerial bombardment gets rid of IEDs. I forgot about that one. I didn't say that the reason they should go in on the ground is because Hezbollah offer little in the way of resistance - the point I was making was that it's the most direct route to punishing those responsible. Let's not forget why these actions were taken by Israel in the beginning - to get their kidnapped troops back. Well have they been returned? Maybe they've been bombed by Israel? Maybe they're in Syria? Who knows. Perhaps Israel may never see them again.

The Brits suffered many civilian atrocities during the 70s, 80s and 90s at the hands of various IRA factions. Did the Brits respond by bombing Dundalk, Drogheda or Dublin in the Republic? The answer is no. Is there relative peace in Northern Ireland now? The answer is yes.

Lol you just cant admit when your wrong. If Israel went in on a full force invasion many of their troops would be killed by IEDs. The bombing is a safer way to get their target without wasting Israeli troops in the process. As for Ireland and Britian that is a completley different story. You didnt have Irish people wanting a jihad on the british. You didnt have people walking into a bus blowing themselves up with their victims. The Palestinians and other Arabs refuse to allow Israel to live peacefully.

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

You havent answered anything. You said that Israel should have invaded on land because "Hezbollah isnt a threat on the ground".

I then said " I guess you havent heard of a little thing called IEDs". You have yet to respond to that.

Oh yeah - aerial bombardment gets rid of IEDs. I forgot about that one. I didn't say that the reason they should go in on the ground is because Hezbollah offer little in the way of resistance - the point I was making was that it's the most direct route to punishing those responsible. Let's not forget why these actions were taken by Israel in the beginning - to get their kidnapped troops back. Well have they been returned? Maybe they've been bombed by Israel? Maybe they're in Syria? Who knows. Perhaps Israel may never see them again.

The Brits suffered many civilian atrocities during the 70s, 80s and 90s at the hands of various IRA factions. Did the Brits respond by bombing Dundalk, Drogheda or Dublin in the Republic? The answer is no. Is there relative peace in Northern Ireland now? The answer is yes.

Lol you just cant admit when your wrong. If Israel went in on a full force invasion many of their troops would be killed by IEDs. The bombing is a safer way to get their target without wasting Israeli troops in the process. As for Ireland and Britian that is a completley different story. You didnt have Irish people wanting a jihad on the british. You didnt have people walking into a bus blowing themselves up with their victims. The Palestinians and other Arabs refuse to allow Israel to live peacefully.

Newsflash: you would have to go in by land at some stage anyway (which you are currently doing so your IED bullshit is exactly that, bullshit (because planes and missiles aren't exactly designed to eliminate IEDs LOL!!!). Israel are currently engaged in exactly what I said they should have been engaged in at the beginning - ground combat - and guess what? Israeli soldiers are dying. Newsflash No.2: Nobody ever said war was going to be easy. You have to expect soldiers to die when they go into a dangerous combat zone.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-25 16:01:47)

GATOR591957 wrote:

Cougar wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

You didnt have Irish people wanting a jihad on the british. You didnt have people walking into a bus blowing themselves up with their victims. The Palestinians and other Arabs refuse to allow Israel to live peacefully.

Wow, you are like the dumbest and most ill-informed person I have ever seen.

When you see terrorism, ask yourself "Why"?  Why would people walk into a bus station with bombs strapped to thier bodies and kill themselves.  Why?  Because they are desperate.  Go to Palestine, or watch an un-biased film over the living conditions in Palestine and then come back and see us.

Jealousy, hatred, religious fanaticism, ignorance, blind faith, shall I go on?

You're just another example of the problem. Understanding of the grievances of those driven to such acts. Do you know why Irishmen and women all throughout history rebelled against the brits at every opportunity? Do you know why an IRA man would go out and risk his life to drive a digger loaded with explosives into a police barracks? Do you understand why a Palestinian who knows only suffering would choose to shoot people or to blow himself up when he knows the goddamn consequences? Please inform yourselves before making snap judgements based on nothing at all whatsoever. Fucking hell it really sickens me how people can be so ignorant. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH SINCE 1947? Everything Israel has today has been at their expense. Wise the fuck up. ARmchair idiots. I've been to the West Bank and I can tell you it ain't fucking pretty. Walk a mile west and your in opulent surroundings, grand hotels and fancy shops. Some people's lack of understanding makes me sick.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-25 16:11:01)

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Cougar wrote:

Wow, you are like the dumbest and most ill-informed person I have ever seen.

When you see terrorism, ask yourself "Why"?  Why would people walk into a bus station with bombs strapped to thier bodies and kill themselves.  Why?  Because they are desperate.  Go to Palestine, or watch an un-biased film over the living conditions in Palestine and then come back and see us.

Jealousy, hatred, religious fanaticism, ignorance, blind faith, shall I go on?

You're just another example of the problem. Understanding of the grievances of those driven to such acts. Do you know why Irishmen and women all throughout history rebelled against the brits at every opportunity? Do you know why an IRA man would go out and risk his life to drive a digger loaded with explosives into a police barracks? Do you understand why a Palestinian who knows only suffering would choose to shoot people or to blow himself up when he knows the goddamn consequences? Please inform yourselves before making snap judgements based on nothing at all whatsoever. Fucking hell it really sickens me how people can be so ignorant. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH SINCE 1947? Everything Israel has today has been at their expense. Wise the fuck up. ARmchair idiots. I've been to the West Bank and I can tell you it ain't fucking pretty. Walk a mile west and your in opulent surroundings, grand hotels and fancy shops. Some people's lack of understanding makes me sick.

No you are the problem. You sicken me by trying to justify the killing of innocent people by someone with a bomb strapped onto themselves. Nothing can justify that.

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

Jealousy, hatred, religious fanaticism, ignorance, blind faith, shall I go on?

You're just another example of the problem. Understanding of the grievances of those driven to such acts. Do you know why Irishmen and women all throughout history rebelled against the brits at every opportunity? Do you know why an IRA man would go out and risk his life to drive a digger loaded with explosives into a police barracks? Do you understand why a Palestinian who knows only suffering would choose to shoot people or to blow himself up when he knows the goddamn consequences? Please inform yourselves before making snap judgements based on nothing at all whatsoever. Fucking hell it really sickens me how people can be so ignorant. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH SINCE 1947? Everything Israel has today has been at their expense. Wise the fuck up. ARmchair idiots. I've been to the West Bank and I can tell you it ain't fucking pretty. Walk a mile west and your in opulent surroundings, grand hotels and fancy shops. Some people's lack of understanding makes me sick.

No you are the problem. You sicken me by trying to justify the killing of innocent people by someone with a bomb strapped onto themselves. Nothing can justify that.

It's hard to justify but it's possible to understand why. Read my fucking words man. This is about understanding not justification. I've just about had it with you fucking morons.

CameronPoe wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

You're just another example of the problem. Understanding of the grievances of those driven to such acts. Do you know why Irishmen and women all throughout history rebelled against the brits at every opportunity? Do you know why an IRA man would go out and risk his life to drive a digger loaded with explosives into a police barracks? Do you understand why a Palestinian who knows only suffering would choose to shoot people or to blow himself up when he knows the goddamn consequences? Please inform yourselves before making snap judgements based on nothing at all whatsoever. Fucking hell it really sickens me how people can be so ignorant. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH SINCE 1947? Everything Israel has today has been at their expense. Wise the fuck up. ARmchair idiots. I've been to the West Bank and I can tell you it ain't fucking pretty. Walk a mile west and your in opulent surroundings, grand hotels and fancy shops. Some people's lack of understanding makes me sick.

No you are the problem. You sicken me by trying to justify the killing of innocent people by someone with a bomb strapped onto themselves. Nothing can justify that.

It's hard to justify but it's possible to understand why. Read my fucking words man. This is about understanding not justification. I've just about had it with you fucking morons.

We are the fucking morons? You still havent answered about the IEDs. You dance around questions and try and change the subject. You are an angry little kid who thinks he understands the world because he has read some books about it. Get real. There is no justification or reason to understand a suicide bomber who walks onto a bus and kills women and children. What does that accomplish? He wont be there to see the pain on the and havoc he has brought upon the families and he wont be there in the future to see if peace will or will not come. Suicide bombs are the pussies way out. What you dont seem to realize is how small Israel is and how much blood shed has come because of it. This is the only land the Israelis have to call home. Six million of them were killed in the holocaust not to mention the jews killed before that. They have been persecuted since the start of their religion. Yes some palestinians were displaced but Israel has made efforts to create a seperate state. They gave back Gaza just last year only to be rewarded by rockets being fired upon them from Gaza itself and to have their 18 year old soldier kidnapped. If you dont see something wrong with that then there is something wrong with you.

CameronPoe wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

We are the fucking morons? You still havent answered about the IEDs. You dance around questions and try and change the subject. You are an angry little kid who thinks he understands the world because he has read some books about it. Get real. There is no justification or reason to understand a suicide bomber who walks onto a bus and kills women and children. What does that accomplish? He wont be there to see the pain on the and havoc he has brought upon the families and he wont be there in the future to see if peace will or will not come. Suicide bombs are the pussies way out. What you dont seem to realize is how small Israel is and how much blood shed has come because of it. This is the only land the Israelis have to call home. Six million of them were killed in the holocaust not to mention the jews killed before that. They have been persecuted since the start of their religion. Yes some palestinians were displaced but Israel has made efforts to create a seperate state. They gave back Gaza just last year only to be rewarded by rockets being fired upon them from Gaza itself and to have their 18 year old soldier kidnapped. If you dont see something wrong with that then there is something wrong with you.

What exactly is your point with the IEDs? Ask me the whole question again and I'll respond.

An angry little 27 year old kid who has been to Palestine AND Israel AND read books AND watched documentaries AND has a first class honours degree in Engineering AND follows current affairs like a hawk. What do you do? Dream it all up in your head? Nice.

I completely disagree with you that there is no reason to try and understand why someone would carry out a suicide bombing. Completely disagree. Tell me why you think they do it. Also before you answer that take a moment to imagine what it would be like if you had been born in Jenin. THen answer the question.
I know full well this is the only land Israel have got - I'm not suggesting they withdraw from 1948 Israel. I can tell you when I was in Israel - they have it GOOD compared to the Palestinians - VERY GOOD. At whose expense was this wonderful land: the Palestinians. I would find it hard not to feel compassion for those people at whose expense your country exists. After having suffered the atrocities of the holocaust Israel has gone on to commit atrocities and human rights violations every bit as bad as those that the Palestinians have committed. Not to mention the fact that the land of Israel necessitates driving millions of arabs from their homes. Does that mean absolutely nothing to you? Jews were paid reparations by Germany for WWII. What did the Palestinians get? Oppression, further encroachment and being treated like an untermensch. I guess they know how the jews felt in the early days of the nazi empire now.

The position of the Israeli government has been that the West Bank will not be given back in it's entirety - ARiel, EasT Jerusalem, Maale Adumim and other significant settlements will stay. On that basis I can understand why the Gazans continued to fight. It isn't two countries - Gaza and West Bank - it's a combined state of Palestine they want. And the Israeli soldier? Well he is a military target so you have to expect these things in times of war although I don't condone the rocketing of places like Sderot and Ashkelon (civilian centers).

Israel was attacked by its arab neighbors and thats the land that they conquered. Tough luck to those that attacked Israel. Thats a part of war. The jews never tried to blow themselves up on buses in Germany. They were killed in a genocide.

The soldier was a millitary target? Excuse me but was a war going on? No. Because of that there now is a war going on and you can thank hezbollah for that.

Humans right atrocities? Im sorry if I fail to see the equality of blowing yourself on a bus knowingly killing men, women, and chidlren and the use of lasar guided missles directed at millitary targets. Yes there have been some mistakes but the two things are uncomparable. The palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do in certain arab countries. Of course there will be road blocks and walls constructed though. Do you want to allow terrorists to flow freely into Israel?
The bottom line is that you cant change history.  Both sides have made mistakes and I admit that openly but the difference is that Israel is attempting to create peace. The muslim world dosent want that peace. They refuse to allow Israel to exist. Look at Iran and Syria for example.

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Israel was attacked by its arab neighbors and thats the land that they conquered. Tough luck to those that attacked Israel. Thats a part of war. The jews never tried to blow themselves up on buses in Germany. They were killed in a genocide.

The soldier was a millitary target? Excuse me but was a war going on? No. Because of that there now is a war going on and you can thank hezbollah for that.

Humans right atrocities? Im sorry if I fail to see the equality of blowing yourself on a bus knowingly killing men, women, and chidlren and the use of lasar guided missles directed at millitary targets. Yes there have been some mistakes but the two things are uncomparable. The palestinians have more rights in Israel than they do in certain arab countries. Of course there will be road blocks and walls constructed though. Do you want to allow terrorists to flow freely into Israel?
The bottom line is that you cant change history.  Both sides have made mistakes and I admit that openly but the difference is that Israel is attempting to create peace. The muslim world dosent want that peace. They refuse to allow Israel to exist. Look at Iran and Syria for example.

Jerusalem was not Arab occupied.  It was supposed to be under international control.  Israel controls it now, and official state policy is that it is theirs; they will never give it back.

LGM missiles are used, as are dumb bombs.  Please do not dismiss carpet bombing of civilian centers and precision guided munitions attacking military targets, because its not the same.

Israel is attempting to create peace?  Really?  Bombing a place to oblivion creates peace, wow, where have I been the last 25 years of my life?

Bananahands, like I posted before, read up on this conflict before dismissing it for what your uninformed mind thinks it is.  It is obvious you have no knowledge on the subject based on what you post.  Stop posting rhetoric and post real information.  If and when you post real arguments for your reasoning, I will start addressing them.

The world will never be the way that guy(cameronpoe) wants it to be, he just likes antagonizing people into an argument on the threads.  For christs sake, the guy thinks the EU will be the next superpower, I'm mean CMON!!! The EU is a bunch of individualists sharing a currency THATS ALL!!! You think France, Germany, UK will all get along as a superpower together??? History will tell you that will NEVER happen!!

Plus the Europeans dont have any BALLS to step up to world conflict AT ALL! They much prefer to sit in their "cocoons" and let others slug it out.  They claim they are the USA's friends, but we all know they secretly aren't.  I hope next time there is a conflict in Europe, we(USA) stay THE FUCK out of it!!! And let those pansy fucks fight it out amongst themselves. 

Except for the Brits, there is no other country I can see that is overtly our friend in Europe! The French and the Germans can BLOW ME!!! Same with Spain too!! The Italians are too busy chasing their sisters around trying to hit on them!!

Last edited by fadedsteve (2006-07-25 21:00:55)