ah but the signitories had an obligation to stop other countries from creating new weapons
Yes, but Israel is not legally bound, and therefore that is not basis for calling it illegal.
ah ok, well my mistake, sry. im a bit off on my arguments today, due to tiredness. u got me
It happens. That's how I learned not to post at 4am in the morning.....................
kk man. but i am still strongly against Israel and their over reaction to what seems like every small attack. It is disproportionate and i think that they should be prosecuted for their actions. what side do you take on that bubbalo?
Oh, I think they're murderous bastards. It's just that there's so much they did do to criticise them for (like not signing the treaty) that I don't see the need to pin stuff they didn't do on them.
yeah, ok i see wat u mean. i also find it very irritating when people think that israel has been there forever and that it is the Palestinians faults, i think that everyone needs to take a gd look at some history books of the 1948 displation of the Palestinians. the whole presence of Israel in that region is wrong, they think that they hav the right to push the people off "Israel's land" when it is actually the palestinians land in the first place. it would be like me going to the US with a huge army and then being like get the hell of my land, and then giving you back a single state (like the west bank and gaza). and when you comlpain or try to fight, then you get the shit bombed out of you.
also on another point, i must stick up for palestine here. just for the record i am not justifying terrorism but i am trying to make people understand. the palestinians target civilians for a reason, it is actually far more logical (although not morally correct) as taking on the israely army would be foolish, they would be defeated in the blink of an eye. so instead they attack soft targets, they will gain more attension, and so it is more a cry for help than an attack on Israel.
also on another point, i must stick up for palestine here. just for the record i am not justifying terrorism but i am trying to make people understand. the palestinians target civilians for a reason, it is actually far more logical (although not morally correct) as taking on the israely army would be foolish, they would be defeated in the blink of an eye. so instead they attack soft targets, they will gain more attension, and so it is more a cry for help than an attack on Israel.
Why doesnt the us give the land back to the Indians??
and why doesn Australia not give the land back to the aborigionals??
simply becouse it is not posible anymore, there are more then 4 miljon people in Isreal, many young people who have nothing to do with the old situation.
They both need to calm down, and forget the history and look to the future.
But as long as HATE is lectured by both states things will never change.
and why doesn Australia not give the land back to the aborigionals??
simply becouse it is not posible anymore, there are more then 4 miljon people in Isreal, many young people who have nothing to do with the old situation.
They both need to calm down, and forget the history and look to the future.
But as long as HATE is lectured by both states things will never change.
ah but hte tale of he aborigionals and of the indians is far older, this is just in 1948. and there is one more fundamental difference. the American settlers merged with the indians, they coexist, just as the aborigionals do with the australians. however in this situation the Palestinians hav been put in a separate country from their old one and huge walls have been erected to keep them out of their old land.
besides, it doesnt matter how old the problem is, if it is still bothering people then it is still a fresh problem, and even then, it is a whole blooding country, i think that age has absolutly nothing to do with this. it is a huge problem, Israel should give back some of the land, at least split it 50/50.
you say that it would upset the Israelies, gd god do u never think of the other people, how the hell do u think the palestinians think, it was never the Israelies land before and it still isnt rightfully, so i think that who cares if some israelies are upset, they shouldnt be there anyway, and it is upsetting all of the palestinians who hav been displaced first!
besides, it doesnt matter how old the problem is, if it is still bothering people then it is still a fresh problem, and even then, it is a whole blooding country, i think that age has absolutly nothing to do with this. it is a huge problem, Israel should give back some of the land, at least split it 50/50.
you say that it would upset the Israelies, gd god do u never think of the other people, how the hell do u think the palestinians think, it was never the Israelies land before and it still isnt rightfully, so i think that who cares if some israelies are upset, they shouldnt be there anyway, and it is upsetting all of the palestinians who hav been displaced first!
Well, we acted this way untill now. This way of approach didn't achieve a thing. I'm sorry for the civilians, but we kind of decided that we ain't gonna take this crap anymore. We are pissed, and with good reason. You guys expect us to solve things out the quiet way. The problem is that its impossible. BTW, the civilians that are killed resided mostly in houses that stored rockets and other firearms.CameronPoe wrote:
If the same thing were happening to Ireland I would hope that our government would act with a little more decorum, forward-thinking and morality as befits a proper nation than to relatively indiscriminately destroy a country and kill hundreds of civilians collaterally. Measured response not 'lash out in anger'.
1. Israel has taken "better action" in the past. Fruitless and pathetic in the eyes of everyone who knows the scene. Maybe YOU, oh big expert of military plans, can tell me how should Israel have acted.Israel don't have to 'take no action' but instead take 'better action', military or otherwise. Anyways - read at least some of the thread please.
2. I'm not going to read the posts in this thread. With all the respect, reading 43 pages is just too much.
What happened in the west bank? Did our soldiers raped women, shot babies in the heads and massacred thousands with machetes or gas? O: Do you really think that the head of the IDF wakes up every now and then and decides to bomb some civilians cause he feels like it? I criticize my governemnt alot, and well aware of shitty things that are being done in the territorries, especially by the settelers (who sometimes attack Israeli troops as well as palestinians). I've also heard about horrific deeds that were made by indeviduals, but I didn't know that the IDF kills them by the hundreds just for fun.PS I've been to the West Bank during the current intifada and know from first hand experience that Israel IS A TERRORIST STATE.
About the territorial conflict - Jewish imigrants who came from europe, north africa, asia, south africa and north america bought lands from the arabs that lived in palestine. With time, they bought more and more lands, untill some arabs felt that they don't like these guys that come to their country, so they tried to make us leave in several ways. At first the jews didn't respond to the arab's attacks, but after some time they started hitting the arabs back. In 1947 the UN has decided that palestine will be divided in three - an arabic state, a jewish state and jerusalem under international control. the Jews liked the plan, but the arabs rejected it and insisted that the jews will fook off out of palestine. After the brits left the area, the arabs launched a full scale attack on the jews. That war erupted in 1948, and in which the jews captured most of palestine except for gaza strip and the west bank. In 1967, after the arab states put alot of pressure on Israel, the jews decided to take a stand and conquered alot of territories including the golan heights, the west bank, gaza strip and sinai peninsula. According to the peace agreement with Egypt, the Israelis left the sinai peninsula.
gaza strip - a crappy place that the egyptians didn't want, and their president tricked the Israeli PM at that time to take that dump, which no one wanted, not even the Israelis. Israel has left gaza strip because it has no interest in it, but the IDF got back inside after we realized that their attack on an Israeli garrison near the strip, in order to rescure/prevent the transfer of the kidnaped soldier.
The west bank - we don't want this place either, even though some extremists want to stay there. The Israeli PM has announced that Israel will leave the west bank. The arab leadership is too retarded to understand that this announcement is a big chance for them, so they kept attacking Israeli settlements and Israeli troops.
Regarding the guys who think that we shouldn't be here anyway - the jews have decided to form a state due to recent historical events and a long history (1800 years more or less) of persecution and racism, mainly in europe. I don't think that you care about our problem. No one in the USAF gave a damn when a few american bombs could have rescued 1,000,000 jews from certain death. No one in the western democraties cared during the time in which jews were persecuted in europe (even before 1939). No one even gave a damn when the genocide in Rwanda occured (I'm talking about the 1990s). So why should the jews give a damn wheather you guys think that they shouldn't have a country of their own. I think that the jews took things into their own hands a bit late, a bit late for many jews. I'm not sure that you understand our way of thinking, but it doesn't matter. IM HERE. MAKE ME MOVE.
Last edited by GIJew88 (2006-07-24 05:29:41)
WIth respect to what is militarily or strategically best for Israel I am going to say nothing. You have obviously made up your mind that destroying an entire nation is the answer. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that one.
PS Everyone here on this thread is pretty well informed on the series of events that led to the creation of Israel. THey must have been pored over and reiterated about 10 times on this thread alone.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben Gurion 1948
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." Golda Meir 1969
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir 1969
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" Yitzhak Rabin 1979
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." Menachim Begin
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." Yitzhak Shamir 1990
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Binyamin Netanyahu 1989
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon 1998
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Ariel Sharon 1998
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." Ariel Sharon 2001
Terrorists? I'd be inclined to think so.
To answer your question the IDF have shot women, children and innocent civilians, whether it was intentional or not is besides the point. I don't know whether they regarded it as fun or not. More deplorable are government-endorsed acts of collective punishment like bulldozing the houses of relatives of suspected 'terrorists', building the separation wall INSIDE PALESTINIAN TERRITORY, confiscating land from Palestinians and interning people without trial or evidence. Hardly the acts of a noble state.GIJew88 wrote:
What happened in the west bank? Did our soldiers raped women, shot babies in the heads and massacred thousands with machetes or gas? O: Do you really think that the head of the IDF wakes up every now and then and decides to bomb some civilians cause he feels like it? I criticize my governemnt alot, and well aware of shitty things that are being done in the territorries, especially by the settelers (who sometimes attack Israeli troops as well as palestinians). I've also heard about horrific deeds that were made by indeviduals, but I didn't know that the IDF kills them by the hundreds just for fun.
PS Everyone here on this thread is pretty well informed on the series of events that led to the creation of Israel. THey must have been pored over and reiterated about 10 times on this thread alone.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." David Ben Gurion 1937GIJew88 wrote:
The west bank - we don't want this place either, even though some extremists want to stay there. The Israeli PM has announced that Israel will leave the west bank. The arab leadership is too retarded to understand that this announcement is a big chance for them, so they kept attacking Israeli settlements and Israeli troops.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben Gurion 1948
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." Golda Meir 1969
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir 1969
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" Yitzhak Rabin 1979
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." Menachim Begin
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." Yitzhak Shamir 1990
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Binyamin Netanyahu 1989
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon 1998
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Ariel Sharon 1998
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." Ariel Sharon 2001
Terrorists? I'd be inclined to think so.
I am not one of those people. Israel is a reality now and that has to be dealt with.GIJew88 wrote:
Regarding the guys who think that we shouldn't be here anyway - the jews have decided to form a state due to recent historical events and a long history (1800 years more or less) of persecution and racism, mainly in europe.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 05:56:03)
Actually, Israel isn't destroying the entire nation. Too bad foregin journalists make others think that Lebanon's buildings are turning into dust. Most of the civilian structures that were hit by Israeli jets are: 1. Infastructure - mainly roads, bridges etc. 2. Houses which were used for storage of rockets.CameronPoe wrote:
WIth respect to what is militarily or strategically best for Israel I am going to say nothing. You have obviously made up your mind that destroying an entire nation is the answer. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that one.
When bad people get guns, they use them for bad purposes. I know that whenether those cases reach the military court, the guilty are being punished. Killing civilians isn't an official stand of the state of Israel.To answer your question the IDF have shot women, children and innocent civilians, whether it was intentional or not is besides the point. I don't know whether they regarded it as fun or not.
Sadly, that did happen, and many civilians lost their homes because of that decision, but it was in a time in which Israel had no idea how to respond to terorism. The houses that were destroyed were of suicide bombers by the way that were already dead (after commiting their act).More deplorable are government-endorsed acts of collective punishment like bulldozing the houses of relatives of suspected 'terrorists',
The separation wall doesn't "steal" alot of lands for Israel, and some of them are "given" back in other areas of the fence. The problem is that there are arabs who want to stay inside the israeli territory and some parts of the fences harm certain villages financially. There are many wrong things with the fence, and I agree with you, but both sides will have to make comprimises. BTW, bad planning of that wall doesn't make Israel a terrorist state.building the separation wall INSIDE PALESTINIAN TERRITORY, confiscating land from Palestinians
1. The IDF doesn't just arrest people, because Israel can't afford it. The jails are full as they are now.and interning people without trial or evidence.
2. Israel is in state of emergency ever since it was established simply because it is surrounded by people who want to destroy it. That state of emergency lets the government to arrest people. There are a few innocents in the Israeli prisons.
Nope, just a state in a condition never seen before. We just wanna solve things up. Sadly we have no partners.Hardly the acts of a noble state.
It is very easy to take select some good quotes which support your stand and bring them into this thread. Fact is that some of these quotes are just people talking rubbish which didn't represent their opinions/factions opinions (Daviv Ben Guryon - which denounced acts of terrorism by jewish militias before and during the war of 48), others were said by people who didn't represent Israel at that time (e.g. Ariel Sharon - I wonder whether a quote of a famous german guy who doesn't like the turkes in his country will represent his government's official line) and other were said in times that Israel was surrounded by huge armies and didn't want to let go of strategically important locations or recognize the palestinians without something in return (Golda Meir) etc. It is very funny that you have brought quotations of Ariel Sharon (at a time which he exaggerated all the time simply because he had a political agenda) and of Benjamin Netanyahu which exaggerates 24/7 ever since he was born."We must expel Arabs and take their places." David Ben Gurion 1937
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben Gurion 1948
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." Golda Meir 1969
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Meir 1969
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" Yitzhak Rabin 1979
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." Menachim Begin
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." Yitzhak Shamir 1990
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Binyamin Netanyahu 1989
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon 1998
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Ariel Sharon 1998
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." Ariel Sharon 2001
Terrorists? I'd be inclined to think so.
I accept that I can selectively gather quotes - that is true of us all. What I will say though is that the comments made by Ariel Sharon that i mentioned do reflect the kind of person he is and he is the elected head of state of Israel (Ehud Olmert not actually having been elected). So the Israeli people on the ground cannot completely absolve themselves of all of the actions of such characters (and their repercussions). I don't condone Hezbollah's shelling of Israel btw.GIJew88 wrote:
It is very easy to take select some good quotes which support your stand and bring them into this thread. Fact is that some of these quotes are just people talking rubbish which didn't represent their opinions/factions opinions (Daviv Ben Guryon - which denounced acts of terrorism by jewish militias before and during the war of 48), others were said by people who didn't represent Israel at that time (e.g. Ariel Sharon - I wonder whether a quote of a famous german guy who doesn't like the turkes in his country will represent his government's official line) and other were said in times that Israel was surrounded by huge armies and didn't want to let go of strategically important locations or recognize the palestinians without something in return (Golda Meir) etc. It is very funny that you have brought quotations of Ariel Sharon (at a time which he exaggerated all the time simply because he had a political agenda) and of Benjamin Netanyahu which exaggerates 24/7 ever since he was born.
Actually the Indians didnt coexist. They were killed off and the remainders were put into reservations(settlements).Fld_Mrsl_Arts wrote:
ah but hte tale of he aborigionals and of the indians is far older, this is just in 1948. and there is one more fundamental difference. the American settlers merged with the indians, they coexist, just as the aborigionals do with the australians. however in this situation the Palestinians hav been put in a separate country from their old one and huge walls have been erected to keep them out of their old land.
besides, it doesnt matter how old the problem is, if it is still bothering people then it is still a fresh problem, and even then, it is a whole blooding country, i think that age has absolutly nothing to do with this. it is a huge problem, Israel should give back some of the land, at least split it 50/50.
you say that it would upset the Israelies, gd god do u never think of the other people, how the hell do u think the palestinians think, it was never the Israelies land before and it still isnt rightfully, so i think that who cares if some israelies are upset, they shouldnt be there anyway, and it is upsetting all of the palestinians who hav been displaced first!
Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen
Some quotes
Some quotes
I'm still waiting for the part where they sound like a religion of peace."We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe,"
we continue to attack, they will leave."
"This war will be remembered as the beginning of the end for Israel," Safiadeen said.
"The resistance groups will not accept a political end to this," Zavavi said. "They will not put down their weapons."
Rice is "not welcome," Assaf said. "She is responsible for the killing of children in Lebanon and Gaza. She, her administration, and her policies are not welcome here."
damn it, palestine was never a country!!!
The cavalry has arrived!GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
damn it, palestine was never a country!!!
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun … 22222.html
Hezbollah leader should've kept his mouth shut. Whoops!
Bunker Busters FTW!
Hezbollah leader should've kept his mouth shut. Whoops!
Bunker Busters FTW!
A gift from the children of Israel
To the children of Lebanon
To the children of Lebanon
Last edited by herrr_smity (2006-07-24 11:14:17)
Thanks Jews ?
Warning graphic content!!!!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … e14069.htm
So many of you still think U.N is doing bullshit job ?
And Oh I almost forgot thank Bush for the express delivery of the bombs for his friends at israel
Warning graphic content!!!!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … e14069.htm
So many of you still think U.N is doing bullshit job ?
And Oh I almost forgot thank Bush for the express delivery of the bombs for his friends at israel
Last edited by alpinestar (2006-07-24 11:22:43)
Damn it Palestine always should have been a country. Damn ottomans and israelis!!!! What are you suggesting? That they cease to exist? That they go book into a hotel somewhere?GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
damn it, palestine was never a country!!!
The sovereign state of Israel (a nation in the modern sense) never existed pre-1948 either.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 11:29:14)
Nice way to tar all muslims as Hezbollah supporters. Nice.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen
Some quotesI'm still waiting for the part where they sound like a religion of peace."We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe,"
we continue to attack, they will leave."
"This war will be remembered as the beginning of the end for Israel," Safiadeen said.
"The resistance groups will not accept a political end to this," Zavavi said. "They will not put down their weapons."
Rice is "not welcome," Assaf said. "She is responsible for the killing of children in Lebanon and Gaza. She, her administration, and her policies are not welcome here."
Pretty easy to do when Muslims don't condemn the views held by people such as him.CameronPoe wrote:
Nice way to tar all muslims as Hezbollah supporters. Nice.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen
Some quotesI'm still waiting for the part where they sound like a religion of peace."We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. There will be no place they are safe,"
we continue to attack, they will leave."
"This war will be remembered as the beginning of the end for Israel," Safiadeen said.
"The resistance groups will not accept a political end to this," Zavavi said. "They will not put down their weapons."
Rice is "not welcome," Assaf said. "She is responsible for the killing of children in Lebanon and Gaza. She, her administration, and her policies are not welcome here."
Also, to the poster of the images, here's a news flash.
War sucks, people die. There is nothing pretty about war.
I agree war sucks but so far it has only sucked for the people of lebanon ..Erkut.hv wrote:
Pretty easy to do when Muslims don't condemn the views held by people such as him.CameronPoe wrote:
Nice way to tar all muslims as Hezbollah supporters. Nice.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen
Some quotes
I'm still waiting for the part where they sound like a religion of peace.
Also, to the poster of the images, here's a news flash.
War sucks, people die. There is nothing pretty about war.
Well for a start it's a shia militia. Shia don't tend to get on with Sunnis, to put it mildly. So I would find it strange if ALL muslims supported their actions, not to mention the fact that most muslims are reasonable people just like you and me.Erkut.hv wrote:
Pretty easy to do when Muslims don't condemn the views held by people such as him.CameronPoe wrote:
Nice way to tar all muslims as Hezbollah supporters. Nice.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Hezbollah Envoy: War on Israel to Widen
Some quotes
I'm still waiting for the part where they sound like a religion of peace.
Also, to the poster of the images, here's a news flash.
War sucks, people die. There is nothing pretty about war.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 11:40:46)