Jews are NOT a race ( tempted to call you a tool ).Bubbalo wrote:
That was to do with race, not religion.HURLEY wrote:
lets just say one word, holocaust.
Tricky topic. I will defer to the pithy poetry of D.H. Rumsfeld.
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
Uh, yes they are (depending, of course, on your definition of race). Judaeism is the religion which most Jews follow.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Jews are NOT a race ( tempted to call you a tool ).
Lets stick to reality, they are not a race.
Jews are a race. The word race is so loosely defined and tossed around these days that anyone is a race.Horseman 77 wrote:
Lets stick to reality, they are not a race.
Besides, in reality, we're all the same race.
it's never right to say that the faithful are ignorant. Its never right to call anybody ignorant. Science and religion can both offer answers, but religion can just seem to be uttery untrue and science can also have an even bigger problem- nothing is sacred. If you want to know why more people get murdered, raped, kidnapped and who knows what else, I wouldnt mind betting that it's because the murderer, rapist etc dosent regard life for what it truly is. And no, i'm not a religious person because I don't believe in people killing in the name of religion, or not accepting something that has a great amount of proof- i.e big bang theory. Faith does require ignorance, but in a sense, so does everything- there is just a limit before everybody starts calling you ignorant.
No. We're all the same species, but racial characteristics are more defined than that simple fact.jonsimon wrote:
Besides, in reality, we're all the same race.
Jeez, Bubbalo really caught me by surorise there. He's usually smart.
So you have Asian Jews, Arab Jews, caucasion jews, etc. but the day they become Jewish they loose their racial identity and become just Jews?
Radical concept.
So you have Asian Jews, Arab Jews, caucasion jews, etc. but the day they become Jewish they loose their racial identity and become just Jews?
Radical concept.
agree, its more of a culture than a race.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Jews are NOT a race ( tempted to call you a tool ).Bubbalo wrote:
That was to do with race, not religion.HURLEY wrote:
lets just say one word, holocaust.
There is Judaeism the religion, but Jews are also a race, albeit with a more intertwined religion than most.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Jeez, Bubbalo really caught me by surorise there. He's usually smart.
So you have Asian Jews, Arab Jews, caucasion jews, etc. but the day they become Jewish they loose their racial identity and become just Jews?
Radical concept.
Regardless, the importance isn't whether they are a religion, but whether Hitler believed they were, which he did. He disliked all religions equally, it was races that he hated.
Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-07-23 15:20:31)
If he disliked religions why did Nazis have to sign a form stating that they "believed in God".
'Faith requires ignorance'.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Given what is in bold above I believe that to be truly faithful one would have to ignore evidence presented that is contrary to whatever it is you have faith in. Hence generally, faith requires ignorance.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Given what is in bold above I believe that to be truly faithful one would have to ignore evidence presented that is contrary to whatever it is you have faith in. Hence generally, faith requires ignorance.
the bible is like the most documented or whatever book out there...CameronPoe wrote:
'Faith requires ignorance'.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
but i dont think faith requires ignorance.. it just requires a lot of thought.
and in terms of religion, i'm a christian. I believe in God. However I do not believe in hell. I think if God is just at all theres no way a "Hell" could ever be justified. Just my 2 cents
Last edited by CommieChipmunk (2006-07-23 22:55:40)
Not even for asses that blow themselves up in a crowded market, or people who rape and murder babies?
You better believe its a race, if you don't think so, do some research, you'll be amazed at what INFORMATION is out there. 65% of Israel is NOT of the JEWISH RELIGION. However more than 50% of that country identifies themselves as Jews. hmmm. Also the President of Israel (NOT THE PM) is Iranian as are some cabinet members. Just FYI.cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
agree, its more of a culture than a race.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
Jews are NOT a race ( tempted to call you a tool ).Bubbalo wrote:
That was to do with race, not religion.
You're reading too much into definitions my friend. Just because a dictionary says that ONE of the definitions of faith is a firm belief ins something for which there is no proof does not mean all faith is that way. Generally, faith is connected to religion. Some say there is proof, some say there is not. That is not ignorance, that is DIFFERENT VALUES. It seems a little authoratative to say that faith requires ignorance. Get over yourself. But by all means believe what you want to believe, because that is your value set, which is connected to faith, which has a little to do with ignoring some things, but only because you want to, and only because your values allow it. Some say Evolution has no proof, and by that definition (from your source) people who believe in Evolution generally have to be ignorant. Like I said, its all about what you believe and your values.CameronPoe wrote:
'Faith requires ignorance'.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Given what is in bold above I believe that to be truly faithful one would have to ignore evidence presented that is contrary to whatever it is you have faith in. Hence generally, faith requires ignorance.
i wouldnt say that religion is holding us back, more so that the church itself has held us back, if you look at basics like the ten commandments and "do onto others as you would have them do onto you." they are very good principles to live by and hold hummanity back in no way. the church and its greed and lust for power are what is wrong with religion. a few bad apples that happen to be at the top of the chain.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
I object to that statement.Miller wrote:
False. You have to be ignorant not to accept a religion.
I believe religion is the chain holding humanity back from peace and prosperity and evolvement.
Ignorance is bred out of not knowing something. Faith generally requires that someone believes in something or someone because they do not know otherwise and are passively/actively held back from further knowledge.
I can claim to be ignorant in cell phone construction. If I plan to attach cell phone construction to the important values of my life, then I can either take an electrical engineering class and learn how to construct cell phones (so as to not be ignorant of them) or I can choose to be stupid and Remain ignorant about them and go on believing in what I figured cell phones to be before even stepping into an EE class.
Stupidity is when someone actively tries to remain ignorant of information in order to sustain their beliefs, rather than facing facts. The brunt of the matter is that a lot of people are "faithful" today in religion because they were brought up ignorant about other beliefs. Not enough people take the time to fully educate their children about the different religions in the world, and the children grow up thinking that their faiths are infallible as compared to everyone elses.
Faith is asking for an explanation to something and being perfectly fine and content with the answer "Because."
I can claim to be ignorant in cell phone construction. If I plan to attach cell phone construction to the important values of my life, then I can either take an electrical engineering class and learn how to construct cell phones (so as to not be ignorant of them) or I can choose to be stupid and Remain ignorant about them and go on believing in what I figured cell phones to be before even stepping into an EE class.
Stupidity is when someone actively tries to remain ignorant of information in order to sustain their beliefs, rather than facing facts. The brunt of the matter is that a lot of people are "faithful" today in religion because they were brought up ignorant about other beliefs. Not enough people take the time to fully educate their children about the different religions in the world, and the children grow up thinking that their faiths are infallible as compared to everyone elses.
Faith is asking for an explanation to something and being perfectly fine and content with the answer "Because."
Ah, Marconius.
It's been far too long sinse you graced us with your presence.
It's been far too long sinse you graced us with your presence.
Back from a nice weekend and into a deep subject already.CameronPoe wrote:
'Faith requires ignorance'.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Given what is in bold above I believe that to be truly faithful one would have to ignore evidence presented that is contrary to whatever it is you have faith in. Hence generally, faith requires ignorance.
Cameron, I would pose a question back to you. Is faith ignorance as you say, or a deeper understanding of what is possible. You see many geniuses were thought of as village idiots in their day.
I almost got heated over the issue, but I think Poe chose his words carefully.
Short answer: Yes
Ignorance is a lacking of knowledge in a certain area, and faith is believeing in something without adequate scientific evidence to support it. By those definitions, Faith does in fact require ignorance.
He did not, however, specify which kind of faith.
I have faith in the fact I will make it home tonight. My ignorance is that I do not know for a fact whether I will or not.
Short answer: Yes
Ignorance is a lacking of knowledge in a certain area, and faith is believeing in something without adequate scientific evidence to support it. By those definitions, Faith does in fact require ignorance.
He did not, however, specify which kind of faith.
I have faith in the fact I will make it home tonight. My ignorance is that I do not know for a fact whether I will or not.
If somebody has faith/believes that the earth was created in 6 days, yet radioactive carbon dating/half life of atoms/the fossil record/the general geological data collected on the earth shows us almost irrefutably that it was actually formed over millions of years then in this case Faith = Ignorance. But, if a person believes that the 6 days reference is actually a metaphor and not a literal interpretation then in that case faith does not equal ignorance. This topic is entirely relative.rawls2 wrote:
Faith = Believeing something that cant be proven on the condition that what you believe is for a greater good.
Ignorance = Refusing to believe something in spite of irrefutable evidence.
So having faith does not = ignorance.
For example, I believe that if I lead a good life I will do ok (not in a religious sense). I have faith that those who do ill to others will set in motion a series of events that will come back and bite them in the ass. However I am not ignorant to the fact that many bad people live successful lives. So I guess sometimes faith can be useful to fill a gap in reason and bolster that which you wish was true.
Stop bitching! You're both right okay.......jonsimon wrote:
Jews are a race. The word race is so loosely defined and tossed around these days that anyone is a race.Horseman 77 wrote:
Lets stick to reality, they are not a race.
Besides, in reality, we're all the same race.
A religion is..well obvious and "Jew" defines the person's faith in Judaism so they ARE a religion!!!
A race is a group of people that are a like in physical chracteristics and, in the UK anyway, you can describe someone as having a Jewish nose (like Barry Manilow). So yes, they can be described as a race as well.......
Do you have a problem with one thing having two descriptions?
I love the "metaphor" line that some Christians come out with, especially when it comes to Adam and Eve vs Evolution. Many, who believe the scientists, say that Adam and Eve were a metaphor for the beginings of life on Earth but you can really tie them up in knots if you then ask them why Jesus came to Earth to die for Adam's sin if he never existed (I suppose that's a metaphor too?!?!?)dc_involved wrote:
But, if a person believes that the 6 days reference is actually a metaphor and not a literal interpretation then in that case faith does not equal ignorance. This topic is entirely relative.
I didn't say that faith is ignorance as you imply rather that semantically faith requires ignorance. If one were to cease to be ignorant about certain things ones faith in a particular thing might be compromised - resulting in you ceasing to be faithful. I don't see how faith can equate to a deeper understanding of what is possible. Deeper in what way?GATOR591957 wrote:
Back from a nice weekend and into a deep subject already.CameronPoe wrote:
'Faith requires ignorance'.
Merriam Webster Definitions:
Main Entry: Faith
Function: noun
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
Given what is in bold above I believe that to be truly faithful one would have to ignore evidence presented that is contrary to whatever it is you have faith in. Hence generally, faith requires ignorance.
Cameron, I would pose a question back to you. Is faith ignorance as you say, or a deeper understanding of what is possible. You see many geniuses were thought of as village idiots in their day.