BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

RightInTheFace wrote:

well
Israel cant allow hizbala to take Israel soldiers to Lebanon
i hope that Israel will not stop till hizbala will send the soldiers back

Good luck with that. Newsflash: Hisb'allah already took the soldiers to Lebanon. I'd imagine Hisb'allah are looking at the Israeli attacks and thinking 'OMG let's give the soldiers back'. NOT. If those soldiers return to Israel in anything other than coffins I'll be surprised. Hisb'allah just wanted to prompt Israel into doing this because this action plays directly into their hands.

RightInTheFace wrote:

our land is very small ... didn't ask for more

Well you kind of are 'asking for more' by creating settlements all over the West Bank so that's bullshit.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-16 12:15:26)

OpsChief wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

STFU you dont know what you are taliking about. you would be a little Nazi Rape Tard if it wasn't for the USA. Is that why you are so twisted about it. Becuase you owe your existance to the people you despise? sad.

the whole ww2 dreams that the US has is just stupid. the Russian destroyed the wehrmacht NOT the US
GROW THE FUCK UP

off topic ^ so is this v

lol if US hadnt given a billion tons of lend lease to the USSR they would still be defending Siberia and Kamchatka, or even Alaska- However they deserve tremendous respect for the loss of life and cost to their society as sacrifice to beat the boob from Bavaria but remember, the USSR did have a non-aggression pact with Hitler on day one which allowed him to focus on consolidating Europe first.

It was the early USA Logistical, industrial and economic might that enabled the later unrelenting Soviet attacks from the Eastern front and the US/UK/free force allies' rapid repatriation of the rest of Europe.  We made a great team didn't we? Something to be proud of.

well done!  and norway helped who ? I forget.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-07-16 12:31:25)

jonsimon wrote:

Boy. I feel disgraced to be an american, to be associated with such stupid, blind, and ignorant people. The middle east is not comparable to any european or american regions. The middle east has only existed as we know it since the end of WWI. With the exception of iran, the middle east is a bunch of lines drawn up by the eurpeans, who were not concerned with the welfare of another region at the time. Governments and civilians in the middle east do not always share the same views, and terrorists never share the views of the people. Middle eastern people, normal people, want to live and prosper without the violence. The Koran is a peaceful book and only condones violence in self defense. The word Ji-had does not mean holy war, it means a struggle to do good, or a struggle to protect ones family and property. The ignorance of western culture in general disgusts me.

I agree fully, good post.  The thing which disgusts me most is that western culture actually seems encourage being ignorant, and many people simply don't want to go against the flow.

herrr_smity wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

OpsChief wrote:

off topic ^ so is this v

lol if US hadnt given a billion tons of lend lease to the USSR they would still be defending Siberia and Kamchatka, or even Alaska- However they deserve tremendous respect for the loss of life and cost to their society as sacrifice to beat the boob from Bavaria but remember, the USSR did have a non-aggression pact with Hitler on day one which allowed him to focus on consolidating Europe first.

It was the early USA Logistical, industrial and economic might that enabled the later unrelenting Soviet attacks from the Eastern front and the US/UK/free force allies' rapid repatriation of the rest of Europe.  We made a great team didn't we? Something to be proud of.

well done!  and norway helped who ? I forget.

well our merchant marine were the life line that Briton needed.

. . . . sinicker. . . .

Bertster7 wrote:

I've already pointed this out in another thread but....


Iraq was invaded for non compliance with UN resoultions, maybe you should take a look a the list of UN resolutions broken by Israel. They also developed nukes in secret when they were specifically told not to by the UN - a decision backed 100% by the US - wasn't there something about Saddam developing weapons of mass destruction.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th … _Palestine

Strange that despite all this the US still back Israel totally, yet Iraq gets invaded. Strange, no?

Good point... but the link seems to be broken... i think this is where it should point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th … _Palestine

HM1{N} wrote:

I have taken some heat here regarding my stance on the situation in the Middle East, so let me elaborate a little:

I do NOT and have never condoned suicide/homicide bombings by the Palestinians.  I believe that killing innocent civilians is and always will be WRONG.

I do NOT and have never condoned the actions of Hezbollah, aside from those that are in a direct response to agression.  Please be aware that Hezbollah was created as a response to Israel invading (ILLEGALLY) Lebanon.  It would not exist today were it not for that...

I do NOT and have never condoned State sponsored terrorism.  That goes for Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel, etc...

I do NOT and have never condoned the stealing of land and the murdering of people for such gain (Zionism) as Israel has done for decades.

And yet everything I've read from you on this thread (and Poe, your still guilty of this too) has been Israeli bashing. Not once have you looked at what hezbollah has done and condemned them to anything like the same degree. Thats a "Fair and Balanced" view isn't it guys...?

HM1{N} wrote:

Here is the over-simplified version of the facts:

Israel has become the state it is today because of their expansionist policies.  Since the late 1940's, Israel has systematically murdered people of that region to steal their land.  Their claims to the land were denied by the UN.  The British did NOT give them that land, it wasn't theirs to give.  Britain actually renigged on their offer in the '40's, Israel took the land anyway.

So its not just the Arab world that has been fucking the Israeli's over then? Western countries have form for it too. The land was promised to them (rightly or wrongly; it was still promised to them) and then we said "sorry, we had our fingers crossed behind our back". Well I'm sure we all feel better knowing that actually Israel can count on no-one... oh thats right, except themselves.

HM1{N} wrote:

Suicide bombing are a DIRECT RESPONSE to the actions of State run terrorism by Israel.  The constant military actions against the Palestinians gave rise to this new breed of reaction, which Israel calls terrorism (and most of the world).  I ask this "which is worse, using your military to murder 100's of civilians to take their land (Israel) or, killing 10-20 people (and yourself) with a bomb strapped to your body to get back at them?"

So for standing in a internationally recognized country's army and being held accountable at least to that government and its people is now comparable to the people who hide their identity and sulk in shadows until their ready to commit mass murder? Representing a country that can be held to account by the international community is the same as a what is effectively a criminal group? I'm sorry to lower the tone but fuck off you prat.
Israeli soldier: Kill a child and you'll be arrested and jailed if a court finds you guilty
Terrorist group: Do wtf you like and get away with it, or even better be called a martyr for murdering people.
One can be held accountable (even if it is to a flawed system), the other can't be.

HM1{N} wrote:

All of the countries in the Middle East hate Israel, why???

Because Israel stole land, murdered the people, and claims it for their own with the backing of the U.S.

If you read the history and look at the facts, you will see that Israel is at fault for what is wrong out there...and my country, the U.S., is equally at fault for perpetuating the vicious cycle.  Until my country steps in and says ENOUGH, this will go on forever, or at least until Irand launches a nuke on Israel (God save us all).

One last note:  feeling the way I do, I do NOT condone the destruction of Israel and the killing of it's populace.  I DO however condone the removal of Israel provided there is a safe place they can live in peace.

Both sides are murdering people. Wake up and pay attention!! Your vaunted Hezbollah are killing people as well, stop devouting all your time to bashing Israel and spare some breath for your condemnation of the terrorist groups.

There are two things that i think should be added here. Firstly, if Israel knew where to strike, then they would have passed that info along to the Lebanese government. Israel has given the Lebanese time to act, they haven't and the rocket attacks and border raids have continued. So we're back to what would you have them do instead? Send a invitation to the terrorists while they grab their ankles? Waiting for the Lebanese to do something has failed... your next plan?

Secondly, a thought on why the US and other Western powers haven't taken action. Israel is attacking a terrorist group. You could say that they are seeking out terrorism and trying to destroy it... how is that different from the US position on terrorism? Especially considering that not only has the US, and mainly the UK, declared open war on Osama; but they have also toppled two governments in recent years for harbouring terrorists? Its not just the the Jews in America are holding sway over policy (although that line of thinking may have some credence), what Israel is doing is in keeping with the stated US policy.

Jainus wrote:

So its not just the Arab world that has been fucking the Israeli's over then? Western countries have form for it too. The land was promised to them (rightly or wrongly; it was still promised to them) and then we said "sorry, we had our fingers crossed behind our back". Well I'm sure we all feel better knowing that actually Israel can count on no-one... oh thats right, except themselves.

The land was never promised to them as a Jewish state, merely as a homeland for them to live in as long as they did not "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." - Which they have done repeatedly over the past 60 years despite universal condemnation by the UN (with the exception of the US).

Jainus wrote:

So for standing in a internationally recognized country's army and being held accountable at least to that government and its people is now comparable to the people who hide their identity and sulk in shadows until their ready to commit mass murder? Representing a country that can be held to account by the international community is the same as a what is effectively a criminal group? I'm sorry to lower the tone but fuck off you prat.
Israeli soldier: Kill a child and you'll be arrested and jailed if a court finds you guilty
Terrorist group: Do wtf you like and get away with it, or even better be called a martyr for murdering people.
One can be held accountable (even if it is to a flawed system), the other can't be.

Israeli soldiers being held accountable for their actions is all very well and good. Yet not a single Israeli soldier has ever been prosecuted for their actions in Palestine, let alone convicted. Even the Israeli soldier who shot a British tourist got off without trial. Flawed system? There is no system for convicting them.
Israel act like a vigilante state - which is wrong, in any situation. If they wanted to go into Lebannon they should have sought UN approval.

Since Israel was given permission to coexist with the non-Jewish inhabitants of Israel they have aggressively expanded and their borders continue to grow.


In fact a lot of the Jewish community were against the principle of Zionism on the grounds that any attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous, since (in their view) only the Messiah could accomplish this.

- Maybe they were right 'cos it hasn't worked out to well so far has it?

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-07-16 13:56:58)

Bertster7 wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

herrr_smity wrote:

well our merchant marine were the life line that Briton needed.

. . . . sinicker. . . .

I think it was skiing Norwegian commandos that took out the main Nazi Nuclear research facility which was in Norway (at least I think it was Norway, somewhere scandanavian anyway). If they'd developed nukes before the end of the war in europe could've been a whole lot more messy (doubt they would've done anyway though).

But I'm sure the Norwegians did their bit.

You beat me to it. And you are indeed correct, it was Norway.

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

The arabs have been exerting violence against the jews in Palestine for more than a hundred years.. not including ancient history. Feel free to look up the 1920 riots, the jaffa riots, the 1929 riots, and the "great uprisng"  where arabs killed thousands of Jews in attempts to make the Jews leave Palestine before Israel ever existed and long before 1948.

Just a quick point - although your remark wasn't directed at me. All of these acts of aggression you mention (by the arabs on jews) were in response to increasingly large waves of jewish immigrants to british mandate Palestine. I don't exactly think the arabs are the original or solitary example of responding to a perceived invasion using violence.

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

The arabs have been exerting violence against the jews in Palestine for more than a hundred years.. not including ancient history. Feel free to look up the 1920 riots, the jaffa riots, the 1929 riots, and the "great uprisng"  where arabs killed thousands of Jews in attempts to make the Jews leave Palestine before Israel ever existed and long before 1948.

Just a quick point - although your remark wasn't directed at me. All of these acts of aggression you mention (by the arabs on jews) were in response to increasingly large waves of jewish immigrants to british mandate Palestine. I don't exactly think the arabs are the original or solitary example of responding to a perceived invasion using violence.

Ohh so its ok that muslims cant tolerate people who are not of the same faith? Thats like americans rioting and killing thousands of hispanics because they are flooding into our country. Its unresasonable and shows the mindset of the arab world.

how about if the rest of the world gives half the US to the Hispanics.

Last edited by herrr_smity (2006-07-16 14:22:28)

Bertster7 wrote:

The land was never promised to them as a Jewish state, merely as a homeland for them to live in as long as they did not "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." - Which they have done repeatedly over the past 60 years despite universal condemnation by the UN (with the exception of the US).

Whether it was promised as a state or not is by the by, the central point remains: the land was promised to them. With conditions yes, and those conditions have been violated but they were still promised the land. Talk of stealing the land is laughable; if anyone stole the land, it was the people that promised it to the Israeli's.

Bertster7 wrote:

Israeli soldiers being held accountable for their actions is all very well and good. Yet not a single Israeli soldier has ever been prosecuted for their actions in Palestine, let alone convicted. Even the Israeli soldier who shot a British tourist got off without trial. Flawed system? There is no system for convicting them.
Israel act like a vigilante state - which is wrong, in any situation. If they wanted to go into Lebanon they should have sought UN approval.

It is still a system none the less. In any democratic country, there is (meant to be) the rule of law; Israel is far from that position but the undeniable fact remains that they have trial by jury for the Israeli soldiers and sweet FA for the terrorists. Whilst the Israeli's feel that their military is acting on their behalf (and with their support) there won't be a conviction, but the system is still in place. Is it wrong? Yes it is, but again we have another blatant example of a double standard. We know who is in the army and was at the scene of any crime; can we say the same about the terrorists? I suppose we can we you have the bits left over from a chest full of C4, but not in terms of the border raids and rocket attacks.

It is wrong that they have invaded Lebanon but I'll let me ask you this. Which would have been easier; wait for a UN resolution that may or may not have a) come at all, b) been in time to save the two kidnapped soldiers and, c) taken too long for the terrorists to have moved their base of operations, rendering any intelligence useless with regards to their whereabouts?

This is the latest spark that has turned into a major fire; where was the UN resolution BEFORE this happened to either force the Lebanese to take action or alternatively to enable the Israeli's to go in after the terrorists? I don't believe you can fault Israel for its intention to preserve the security of its people, that is the number one concern of every single nation on the planet!! You can draw fault with the actions they have taken but I don't for an instant accept they are behaving like a vigilante state; they are carrying out their foremost DUTY to their people.

Bertster7 wrote:

Since Israel was given permission to coexist with the non-Jewish inhabitants of Israel they have aggressively expanded and their borders continue to grow.

Oh well as long as they were given permission to coexist, thats all right then. I take back everything I've written on this subject...

And was this aggressive expansion before or after the arab middle east tried to kick the crap out of them?

Bertster7 wrote:

In fact a lot of the Jewish community were against the principle of Zionism on the grounds that any attempt to re-establish Jewish rule in Israel by human agency was blasphemous, since (in their view) only the Messiah could accomplish this.

- Maybe they were right 'cos it hasn't worked out to well so far has it?

Sorry, but I can't comment on this yet. Don't know enough about the Jewish beliefs . One thing that i will agree with you whole heartedly, is that it hasn't worked out well. Both sides are killing civilians and covering under the guise of fighting oppression/terrorists.

Last edited by Jainus (2006-07-16 14:34:45)

CameronPoe wrote:

State sponsored legal migration? Were the Palestinians consulted? What right had brits or whoever have to sanction immigration into the region... The difference in USA is that the Mexicans are ILLEGAL and should be thrown back to Mexico ASAP...  There is no need to kill the Mexicans because they'll go quietly. I don't think the Israelis would have left quietly and in fact they showed that through the violent actions of their own 'terrorist' factions: the Haganah, Irgun and Lehi, to name a few. You paint the jews as being whiter than white - I concede the arabs have used violent tactics to achieve their aims but nearly all nations are born out of violence (as Israel, Ireland AND the USA were).

So its ok for the arabs to react in a violent manner but not for the Israeli's? Do you remember the chat we had about double standards?

And what exactly is your point about Mexican immigration? That its ok to resort to violence for legal immigration but not ok for illegal? Does that strike anyone else as being suspect?

As to what right the Brits had, this could be an interesting thread to follow. At the time they had the mandate to run the country, that kinda gives them the power. Did they have the 'right'... now thats a sticky one. Any thoughts?

Bertster7 wrote:

rawls wrote:

"should have moral high ground after bieng suicide bombed so frequently" uh no. after bieng suicide bombed so frequently would cause anybody to respond with force. Stop crying for the ppl who wont contol there own kind. They cry about the attacks by Israel but dont blame the reason they are getting bombes. They say they are tired of hezbollah bieng in their country but do nothing, then blame Israel for trying to do it for them.

Do you think this is a recent thing? The terrorist attacks against Israel didn't start until 70s/80s, yet the Israelis have been oppressing the Arabs since 1948 - nearly 60 years! Maybe if you bothered to read up about the situation at all rather than spouting off the typical spiel of "They are suicide bombers so they must be worse" perhaps you would have a more enlightened opinion. Try reading a book on the subject, Finkelsteins Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict is quite informative.

The palestinians could have lived together with the israelis. They chose to fight instead. Still cant feel sorry for them.