Actually the thing that separates humans from animals is the ability to reason. Ironic aint it?Major_Spittle wrote:
humans are creatures of logic.
Last edited by King_County_Downy (2006-07-13 14:23:29)
At the risk of getting further off topic; Hezbollah and Hamas would certainly say they are acting for justice and honour and you yourself have said that injustice should be fought (although I accept that you might go about it slightly differently ) so by your own definition, they will never stop until all of their demands are met. The violence will be escalated as it has in the past, and it will no doubt be escalatated by both sides.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm not going to expect a standard from Hezbollah or Hamas because I don't believe they're morally capable. I don't see them ever becoming standardbearers of morality, justice and honour. And they are certainly not shining examples of how a budding state should act. If they stuck solely to military targets then perhaps I would consider expecting more of them.
Last edited by Jainus (2006-07-13 14:46:59)
Ah, gotcha. Now, combatants are only combatants at night. When they are confronted by day, they suddenly become civilians. "Civialians" are what you will read in most newspapers and in Cameron's posts as to whom Israeli soldiers just killed. combatants by night, civilians by day. These terrorists are succesful in putting on a face to pretend they are innocent. At least it works on Cameron.Jainus wrote:
Yeah thanks. A civilian by definition is a non-combatant, i think what you mean is the terrorists/bombers hide amongst the civilian population. But that still doesn't change the fact that civilians aren't the enemy. What I think Poe is saying (putting my words in his mouth) is that, not every member of the population is carrying a weapon and trying to kill Israeli's and when Israeli kills civilians, its bad.M1-Lightning wrote:
You got a good reason for that?
The way your post is written, it reads like you are in favour of killing civilians because "they are the enemy". If you became the head of the army, that would give you some nice big targets to kill non-combatants for no gain and cover it under the guise of killing the enemy.
I think we need to draw a very firm line in between civilians (non-combatants if you like) and terrorists/freedom fighters/murderers/whatever you want to call them wouldn't you agree with that if nothing else?
There are strategic benefits to the relationship-CameronPoe wrote:
I don't blame you for caring about your own first - I do too. Which puzzles me as to why you would defend a country that offers the US little or no strategic benefit....it doesn't even have oil....
Hmmm. Hamas and Hezbollah are extremists. They are a major problem and that needs to be addressed. I don't know how that can be addressed but the point of this thread was to state that blowing the shit out of Lebanon is not the answer. The answer could possibly be as was done in Northern Ireland. First there was outright violence, then there was the 'armalite and the ballot box' tactic. Then moderates on either side of the conflict mediated between the respective governments and the respective extremist elements on either side. The extremism mellowed as incremental concessions were made on either side. Parity of esteem ensues among all parties involved and a peace plan can be put in place. It might seem impossible in Israel, and is still not guaranteed to have worked in NI, but look how far the north came. It might take 30 years but the approach towards arab militancy needs to change if there is to be peace in Israel.Jainus wrote:
At the risk of getting further off topic; Hezbollah and Hamas would certainly say they are acting for justice and honour and you yourself have said that injustice should be fought (although I accept that you might go about it slightly differently ) so by your own definition, they will never stop until all of their demands are met. The violence will be escalated as it has in the past, and it will no doubt be escalatated by both sides.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm not going to expect a standard from Hezbollah or Hamas because I don't believe they're morally capable. I don't see them ever becoming standardbearers of morality, justice and honour. And they are certainly not shining examples of how a budding state should act. If they stuck solely to military targets then perhaps I would consider expecting more of them.
I cannot begin to understand your position with regards to Hamas/Hezbollah keeping to a moral standard. It isn't a big jump from there to looking at the people that populate these groups and asking are they as a race (not the word I'd like to use, but i can't think of better) capable of morals. I believe that every person is morally capable, it is more a question of do they want to. Hamas/Hezbollah will not try to live up to the moral standards of the international community if those standards aren't there, and they certainly won't if Israel doesn't keep to them either.
Perhaps a start of another thread
Doesn't really seem worth $80bn a year in aid. Wouldn't it have been wiser for the US to have fostered better relations with the arabs since 1948, given that they occupy the vast majority of the region?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
There are strategic benefits to the relationship-CameronPoe wrote:
I don't blame you for caring about your own first - I do too. Which puzzles me as to why you would defend a country that offers the US little or no strategic benefit....it doesn't even have oil....
Just the fact that we (U.S.) have an ally there increases our presence in the region.
They test our military equipment for us
They foster growth in the military-industrial complex
there is a geographic benefit
M1 Lightning - I hardly think children constitute enemy combatants. Are you telling me you condone the killing of children?M1-Lightning wrote:
Ah, gotcha. Now, combatants are only combatants at night. When they are confronted by day, they suddenly become civilians. "Civialians" are what you will read in most newspapers and in Cameron's posts as to whom Israeli soldiers just killed. combatants by night, civilians by day. These terrorists are succesful in putting on a face to pretend they are innocent. At least it works on Cameron.Jainus wrote:
Yeah thanks. A civilian by definition is a non-combatant, i think what you mean is the terrorists/bombers hide amongst the civilian population. But that still doesn't change the fact that civilians aren't the enemy. What I think Poe is saying (putting my words in his mouth) is that, not every member of the population is carrying a weapon and trying to kill Israeli's and when Israeli kills civilians, its bad.M1-Lightning wrote:
You got a good reason for that?
The way your post is written, it reads like you are in favour of killing civilians because "they are the enemy". If you became the head of the army, that would give you some nice big targets to kill non-combatants for no gain and cover it under the guise of killing the enemy.
I think we need to draw a very firm line in between civilians (non-combatants if you like) and terrorists/freedom fighters/murderers/whatever you want to call them wouldn't you agree with that if nothing else?
Plus the Israeli women are hot and we know how to party.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
There are strategic benefits to the relationship-CameronPoe wrote:
I don't blame you for caring about your own first - I do too. Which puzzles me as to why you would defend a country that offers the US little or no strategic benefit....it doesn't even have oil....
Just the fact that we (U.S.) have an ally there increases our presence in the region.
They test our military equipment for us
They foster growth in the military-industrial complex
there is a geographic benefit
Last edited by King_County_Downy (2006-07-13 15:08:47)
How about this theory?Pug wrote:
Plus the Israeli women are hot and we know how to party.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
There are strategic benefits to the relationship-CameronPoe wrote:
I don't blame you for caring about your own first - I do too. Which puzzles me as to why you would defend a country that offers the US little or no strategic benefit....it doesn't even have oil....
Just the fact that we (U.S.) have an ally there increases our presence in the region.
They test our military equipment for us
They foster growth in the military-industrial complex
there is a geographic benefit
Seriously - this is going to suck. Anyone want to state odds on:
1) All out Israeli war with multiple Arab nations
2) All out Israeli & Coalition war with multiple Arab nations
3) All out Israeli & US war with multiple Arab nations
4) UN steps up to the plate and creates a buffer zone ASAP, not after
5) It's a few weeks...relax
OK so you are condoning the killing of children. Fair enough.King_County_Downy wrote:
Age has nothing to do with the ablity to take another's life. Religion is 99% demographic and since they are probably family members of the terrorists, they are most likely similar minded as their parents. Many children in that part of the world participate in the violence. Age is nothing to me. Beliefs are.
meh they'll grow up to be terrorists too. F' 'emCameronPoe wrote:
OK so you are condoning the killing of children. Fair enough.King_County_Downy wrote:
Age has nothing to do with the ablity to take another's life. Religion is 99% demographic and since they are probably family members of the terrorists, they are most likely similar minded as their parents. Many children in that part of the world participate in the violence. Age is nothing to me. Beliefs are.
OMG, that would be awesome!!!! Let the games begin.CameronPoe wrote:
How about this theory?
Israel invade Lebanon full scale a la the 80s.
Syria reinforced by Iran attempt to come to the rescue.
Israel hand Syria their asses on a plate.
Iran attack through Syria.
Israel has the necessary diplomatic cover to go and blow up the nuclear reactors in Iran.
Mission accomplished for Israel.
Last edited by King_County_Downy (2006-07-13 15:10:47)
Fair enough. PS I'm not an anti-semite. I'm anti-Israeli-governmental-policy.Alexanderthegrape wrote:
All I got to say about this is , when I saw the tittle I knew right away who was the author.
I've either got to give you credit for being consistent in your anti-semitism or give you crap for being predictable.
I'll get back to you when I've made up my mind.
i think thats an awesome plan.CameronPoe wrote:
How about this theory?
Israel invade Lebanon full scale a la the 80s.
Syria reinforced by Iran attempt to come to the rescue.
Israel hand Syria their asses on a plate.
Iran attack through Syria.
Israel has the necessary diplomatic cover to go and blow up the nuclear reactors in Iran.
Mission accomplished for Israel.
please let them try this, then all the crap with the fucking muslims will be sorted once and for all.ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:
i think thats an awesome plan.CameronPoe wrote:
How about this theory?
Israel invade Lebanon full scale a la the 80s.
Syria reinforced by Iran attempt to come to the rescue.
Israel hand Syria their asses on a plate.
Iran attack through Syria.
Israel has the necessary diplomatic cover to go and blow up the nuclear reactors in Iran.
Mission accomplished for Israel.
now go ahead and push this through the proper channels so we can get this done.
They remind me of little brats who do not listen. No matter how many times you say "Don't touch that, it's hot!. Don't touch that, it's hot!", they do it anyways. They are incapable of peace and must be put in their places.david363 wrote:
i am 100% behind them, in what they are doing, these arab scum need to be put in their place, but they ave borught this on themselves, they knew what would happen when they captured the soldiers
Tell your father that was very well put.david363 wrote:
--< my dad says this>-- The Arabs start this shit yet again - and Israel will finish it - when will they ever learn - these Arabs dont want peace they want to destroy Israel - thank God this they will never do - if only every government had the guts and determination that Israel has to eliminate terrorists and terrorism - someome should remind the biased BBC that this was started yet again by the terrorists - THEY are and will be responsible for the deaths of the innocents that ensue. Shalom and Salaam to all in the Middle East of goodwill.