BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world … n&_r=1

delta4bravo*nl* wrote:

Im sick of crazy muslims, nuke em all.

Hell no, nuke Israel!

Pug wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Present me with absolute evidence of the Lebanese government condoning the latest acts we speak of and I will gladly concede that you are correct on this point.

Poe?
http://dailynightly.msnbc.com/2006/07/w … rael_.html

That is not an explicit statement from the Lebanese government endorsing the actions of Hezbollah. Interesting article though.

King_County_Downy wrote:

Fredrik wrote:

delta4bravo*nl* wrote:

Im sick of crazy muslims, nuke em all.

Hell no, nuke Israel!

Well, lets just say that if Israeli's all packed up and moved out, the world would be a more peaceful place. I'll agree with you on that.

Yeah, because Arab's never fight against each other.

King_County_Downy wrote:

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/c9ce375dad.gif

Israel gave them a chance, (you could even say it was a set-up) when they gave them back a large section of land. They've tried peace talks. Nothing works with these fucktards. All they know is violence. If it's violence they want, I say lets give it to 'em. Israel could walk right through any bordering country with ease and take EVERYTHING THEY FUCKING OWN if they wanted to. But they don't. They try to be peaceful and stay within their own borders until they need to get some paybacks. I have NEVER heard of an Israeli pre-emptive strike on anyone. They go after the terrorists, where ever they are and I admire them for that. You feel bad for the innocent women and children who get hurt or killed in these attacks? Oh poor thing...Guess who the terrorists SPECIFICALLY target? Innocent women and children. You fuckers need to wake up. It's not going to stop. Ever. And it aint Israel who startin' shit. I got their back. That's all they need

Stay within their own borders? So Ariel, Ma'ale Adumim and all the other west bank settlements are just mythical? And the Golan Heights - they returned it to Syria did they? I must have been asleep for that one. I also thought they took the entire Sinai peninsula at one point - my mistake. As is my recollection of their two invasions of Lebanon (three if you count this one). None of the invasions I mention have just been 'temporary' measures.

If you want to bolster terrorists then follow Gunslinger's quick guide on a previous page - indiscriminately blow the shit out of the civilian populace. At some point in the future the world will say 'enough is enough' with respect to their disproportionate acts of 'defence'. I think your proposed solution to the ills of the middle east (if it is even possible for there to be one) are poorly thought-through.

M1-Lightning wrote:

Civilians ARE the enemy.

That is a moronic statement. I hope you never get a position in some country's defence ministry.

CameronPoe wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/c9ce375dad.gif

Israel gave them a chance, (you could even say it was a set-up) when they gave them back a large section of land. They've tried peace talks. Nothing works with these fucktards. All they know is violence. If it's violence they want, I say lets give it to 'em. Israel could walk right through any bordering country with ease and take EVERYTHING THEY FUCKING OWN if they wanted to. But they don't. They try to be peaceful and stay within their own borders until they need to get some paybacks. I have NEVER heard of an Israeli pre-emptive strike on anyone. They go after the terrorists, where ever they are and I admire them for that. You feel bad for the innocent women and children who get hurt or killed in these attacks? Oh poor thing...Guess who the terrorists SPECIFICALLY target? Innocent women and children. You fuckers need to wake up. It's not going to stop. Ever. And it aint Israel who startin' shit. I got their back. That's all they need

Stay within their own borders? So Ariel, Ma'ale Adumim and all the other west bank settlements are just mythical? And the Golan Heights - they returned it to Syria did they? I must have been asleep for that one. I also thought they took the entire Sinai peninsula at one point - my mistake. As is my recollection of their two invasions of Lebanon (three if you count this one). None of the invasions I mention have just been 'temporary' measures.

If you want to bolster terrorists then follow Gunslinger's quick guide on a previous page - indiscriminately blow the shit out of the civilian populace. At some point in the future the world will say 'enough is enough' with respect to their disproportionate acts of 'defence'. I think your proposed solution to the ills of the middle east (if it is even possible for there to be one) are poorly thought-through.

Just a note:

Hezbollah was created as a response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon back in 1982.  Had Israel not been the agressor then (once again) there probably wouldn't be a Hezbollah today.

Sorry Cameron, been at work. So where were we? Ah yes your recent posts and a few minor thoughts of mine...

CameronPoe
"Why? Because [the Palestine teacher/lawyer] knew he would have no recourse to justice - the solution - avenge her death himself. Suicide bombing is not a preserve of the impoverished although the desparation that poverty and inhumanity brings is a factor."  -  So... as he blew up civilians, do you think thats bad, or ok because the people that died were Israeli's? Throughout all of this you have repeatedly stated that you think killing civi's is bad and you have repeatedly attacked Israel for its response... where are your condemnations of the bombers?

CameronPoe
"Hamas implictly recognised the existence of the state of Israel and what do Israel do?", where did they do this? And if thats right, then why does one of its founders think they HAVEN'T recognised the state?

"This is not a direct recognition of Israel," said a founder of Hamas, Issa Ali Nashar. "The recognition is in the document, it is not Hamas saying it directly recognises Israel. There is recognition of resolutions by the UN (that recognise Israel) in the document."  -  Wake up and smell the coffee, Hamas does not recognise Israel

What you might be thinking of is this however http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ … 21,00.html

"At no point did I call for, condone or endorse the destruction of Israel or civilian deaths within Israel."  -  But again you haven't been calling for rational response by Hamas, Hezbollah either have you? You jumped on the bash Israel wagon instead

HM1{N}
"Israel can not be respected as legitimate when they continually murder innocent people, attack civilians with military assets"  -  And neither can the other side. You can't deal with terrorists, or you will may as well declare open season on the duck shoot of its citizens.

And my favourite so far
HM1{N}
"The land was originally owned by the Arabs, they were called Caananites back then (3rd Millenium).  The Jews then massacred them and stole the land...

Get your facts straight."  -  Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia (which does not include Palestine) and didn't mass migrate into Palestine until the "Great Jihad" of the 7th Century when the conquered the region. In contrast, many historians believe that many Jews are more closely tied to the Caananites as when the Jews conquered the Caananites they intermarried with many of them and hence have some biological ties.

There two solutions, firstly fight on until one side is all dead. Or call it quits and give peace a chance. And Poe, for your information, I'm not actually pro-Israel; I'm a pacifist, so I'd like option 2. I am anti-'people like your self will bash one side for something and turn to a blind eye when someone else does it'.

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

can...take off your blinders and try to look at the facts objectively, if you aren't already blinded by your hate for Muslims.

Yawwwwwn ignorance. You know nothing of me.

HM1{N} wrote:

Israel is responsible for more acts of violence than any other nation in the world

You are quite miniformed tripe nothing factual based just emotional lies. Debate and serious talk isnt intended for blathering 15 year olds.

taken from NYTimes

In Beirut, residents gave out sweets in celebration of the kidnapping, while convoys of young men drove through the downtown district, waving Hezbollah’s yellow flag.

Think they hand out candy in Jerusalem ?

The owner of the house, Nabil Abu Salmiyeh, who was reported to be a Hamas member, was killed along with his wife, Salwa, and seven of their children, ages 7 to 18, Dr. Saqqa said.

If daddys going to be a militant that kills civilians he really shouldnt hide with his familty.

Interesting, I'm 15 now and blathering?  I'm 40 and educated you moron.  You resort to diatribes by calling me 15 and blathering, yet you claim the moral high ground by stating this is a serious debate?  You must be 16 years old, because you contradict yourself in your own statements.

See my post about UN resolutions AGAINST Israel in this thread, that list only goes to 1992...those are facts, not emotional lies.

If I have to I can go back to the '50's when Sharon butchered hundreds of civilians so that Israel could steal their land...further than that to show a complete history of Jew's murdering others, stealing, etc...

Jainus wrote:

Sorry Cameron, been at work. So where were we? Ah yes your recent posts and a few minor thoughts of mine...

CameronPoe
"Why? Because [the Palestine teacher/lawyer] knew he would have no recourse to justice - the solution - avenge her death himself. Suicide bombing is not a preserve of the impoverished although the desparation that poverty and inhumanity brings is a factor."  -  So... as he blew up civilians, do you think thats bad, or ok because the people that died were Israeli's? Throughout all of this you have repeatedly stated that you think killing civi's is bad and you have repeatedly attacked Israel for its response... where are your condemnations of the bombers?

CameronPoe
"Hamas implictly recognised the existence of the state of Israel and what do Israel do?", where did they do this? And if thats right, then why does one of its founders think they HAVEN'T recognised the state?

"This is not a direct recognition of Israel," said a founder of Hamas, Issa Ali Nashar. "The recognition is in the document, it is not Hamas saying it directly recognises Israel. There is recognition of resolutions by the UN (that recognise Israel) in the document."  -  Wake up and smell the coffee, Hamas does not recognise Israel

What you might be thinking of is this however http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ … 21,00.html

"At no point did I call for, condone or endorse the destruction of Israel or civilian deaths within Israel."  -  But again you haven't been calling for rational response by Hamas, Hezbollah either have you? You jumped on the bash Israel wagon instead

HM1{N}
"Israel can not be respected as legitimate when they continually murder innocent people, attack civilians with military assets"  -  And neither can the other side. You can't deal with terrorists, or you will may as well declare open season on the duck shoot of its citizens.

And my favourite so far
HM1{N}
"The land was originally owned by the Arabs, they were called Caananites back then (3rd Millenium).  The Jews then massacred them and stole the land...

Get your facts straight."  -  Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine. Arabs are indigenous to Arabia (which does not include Palestine) and didn't mass migrate into Palestine until the "Great Jihad" of the 7th Century when the conquered the region. In contrast, many historians believe that many Jews are more closely tied to the Caananites as when the Jews conquered the Caananites they intermarried with many of them and hence have some biological ties.

There two solutions, firstly fight on until one side is all dead. Or call it quits and give peace a chance. And Poe, for your information, I'm not actually pro-Israel; I'm a pacifist, so I'd like option 2. I am anti-'people like your self will bash one side for something and turn to a blind eye when someone else does it'.

My bad, I meant to say Palestinians, but was thinking and typing so fast I used the wrong word.  Palestinians are direct descendants of the Caananites.

Last edited by HM1{N} (2006-07-13 13:34:06)

Let's confuse things with some history

Foreign Empires that ruled in Israel
587 BCE Babylonian
Destruction of the first Temple.

538-333 BCE Persian
Return of the exiled Jews from Babylon and construction of the second Temple (520-515 BCE).

333-63 BCE Hellenistic
Conquest of the region by the army of Alexander the Great (333 BCE). The Greeks generally allowed the Jews to run their state. But, during the rule of the king Antiochus IV, the Temple was desecrated. This brought about the revolt of the Maccabees, who established an independent rule. The related events are celebrated during the Hanukah holiday.

63 BCE-313 CE Roman 
The Roman army led by Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple at 70 CE. Jewish people were then exiled and dispersed to the Diaspora. In 132, Bar Kokhba organized a revolt against Roman rule, but was killed in a battle in Bethar in Judean Hills. Subsequently the Romans decimated the Jewish community, renamed Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina and Judea as Palaestina to obliterate Jewish identification with the Land of Israel (the word Palestine, and the Arabic word Filastin originate from this Latin name).
The remaining Jewish community moved to northern towns in the Galilee. Around 200 CE the Sanhedrin was moved to Tsippori (Zippori, Sepphoris). The Head of Sanhedrin, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi (Judah the Prince), compiled the Jewish oral law, Mishna.

313-636 Byzantine 

636-1099 Arab
Dome of the Rock was built by Caliph Abd el-Malik on the grounds of the destroyed Jewish Temple.

1099-1291 Crusaders
The crusaders came from Europe to capture the Holy Land following an appeal by Pope Urban II, and massacred the non-Christian population. Later Jewish community in Jerusalem expanded by immigration of Jews from Europe.

1291-1516 Mamluk 

1516-1918 Ottoman
During the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566) the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem were rebuilt. Population of the Jewish community in Jerusalem increased.

1917-1948 British
Great Britain recognized the rights of the Jewish people to establish a "national home in Palestine". Yet they greatly curtailed entry of Jewish refugees into Israel even after World War II. They split Palestine mandate into an Arab state which has become the modern day Jordan, and Israel.

Since 1948

Israeli War of Independence/ "al-Nakba" (The Disaster) (1948-1949)--Within 24hrs of independence, Israel was invaded by the armies of six Arab nations: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. In addition, local Arab Palestinian forces also fought the Jewish Israelis.

Qibya Raid (October, 1951)—Israeli troops, led by Major Ariel Sharon (Israeli Prime Minister 2001-) destroyed dozens of buildings in the West Bank (Jordan) town of Qibya.  Civilian deaths reached 69.

Egyptian Seizure of the Israeli ship Bat Galim (Summer, 1954)—Egypt seized the Israeli ship Bat Galim as it attempted to enter the Suez Canal.  According to various international agreements, the Suez Canal is supposed to be accessible to ships of all nations.  This provoked worsening tensions between Israel and Egypt.

Gaza Raid (Feb. 28, 1955)—Israeli forces conducted a raid, a response to repeated guerrilla attacks and the seizure of an Israeli ship by Egypt, resulted in the deaths of 51 Egyptian soldiers and 8 Israeli troops.  This raid was the largest of its kind against Arab forces since the end of the First Arab-Israeli War in 1949.

The Sinai War (1956) [Also known as the Suez War]--The invasion and temporary conquest of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula by Israel, while France and Great Britain seized the Suez Canal.

Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (1960-Present)--Israel faced guerrilla and terrorist warfare from several Palestinian armies, most of whom united under the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by Yassir Arafat. Current fighting involves Israel against more religiously militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, as well as against Arafat's Palestinian Authority. (This includes the Palestinian guerrilla warfare against Israel from the 1960's, original Intifada (1988-1992) and the current "Al-Aqsa" Intifada (2000-Present). See below.)

First al-Fatah (PLO) Raid (Dec. 31, 1964)—Yassir Arafat’s al-Fatah faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization conducted its first raid into Israel from Lebanon.

Israeli-Syrian Border and Air Battle (Nov. 13, 1964)—Israel and Syria both claimed sovereignty over several Demilitarized Zones along their border.  These Zones were set up as part of the cease-fire ending the First Arab-Israeli War.  Israel attempted to farm the land in these Zones, while Syria developed a project to divert water from the Jordan River, which Israel shared with both Syria and Jordan.  Syrian forces often fired on Israeli tractors attempting to farm the Zones, while Israel looked for ways to interrupt the Syrian diversion project.  On Nov. 13, 1964, Syrian forces stationed on the top of the Golan Heights, a plateau overlooking Israeli territory in the Jordan River valley, fired on Israeli tractors.  Israeli forces returned fire.  Syrian artillery then targeted Israeli civilian villages.  Israel responded with air attacks on Syrian forces.  This battle resulted in 4 Israeli dead and 9 wounded.  Syrian losses included two tanks and machines involved in the diversion project. One result of this clash was Syria’s accelerated acquisition of more and better Soviet-made fighter planes. (Oren, 2001).

West Bank Raids (May 1965)—After Palestinian guerrilla raids resulting in the deaths of 6 Israelis, the Israeli military conducted raids on the West Bank towns of Qalqilya, Shuna and Jenin.

1966—Israel reported 93 incidents along its borders.

West Bank Raid (April 30 1966)—Israeli forces destroyed over two dozen houses in the West Bank town of Rafat, killing 11 civilians.  This attack was in response to Palestinian raids on Israel.  Most of these attacks on Israel

West Bank Raids (1966)—Israeli forces raided the Hebron area of the West Bank.  These raids resulted in 8 civilian deaths and firefights with the Jordanian Army.

Israeli-Syrian Border Battles (Summer, 1966)—Continued artillery and tank duels along the Golan Heights front led to :

Israeli-Syrian Air Battle (July 7, 1966)—Responding to the continued fighting along the border, Israeli planes attacked Syrian forces, resulting in the loss of one Syrian MiG fighter plane.

Israeli-Syrian Air/Sea Battle (Aug. 15, 1966)—After an Israeli patrol boat ran aground on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee (according to the 1949 cease-fire agreement, Israeli forces were not supposed to approach within 250 meters of the eastern shore, which was a Demilitarized Zone), Syrian planes attacked it.  Israel responded, shooting down two MiG planes.

Samu Raid (West Bank) (November 13, 1966)—Following a land mine explosion which killed three Israeli policemen and wounded one, Israel decided to launch a large retaliatory raid (called Operation Shredder) into the West Bank, to strike at a Palestinian (al-Fatah) guerrilla base near Hebron.  Designed to show Israeli military strength, the raiding force consisted of 10 tanks, forty half-tracks (a troop transportation vehicle) and around 400 soldiers.  The force enjoyed air cover from Israeli war planes.  This force destroyed a police station at the town of Rujm al-Madfa’ and then moved on to the town of Samu’.  As the Israelis demolished houses in Samu’, a small Jordanian force approached and was ambushed by the Israelis.  This battle resulted in 15 Jordanian dead and 54 wounded.  The leader of the Israeli ambush was killed and 10 of his men wounded.   Israeli planes chased off the Jordanian air force, shooting down a Jordanian fighter plane.  This raid also resulted in 3 Arab civilian deaths and 96 wounded.

Besides the large numbers of casualties (on both sides) from what was supposed to be a relatively swift and easy raid, Israel suffered diplomatic setbacks.  The United States was quite upset over this large attack on one of Washington’s few Arab friends (Jordan’s King Hussein) and at the lack of response to the Syrians, who were the true sponsors of most Palestinian attacks in Israel.  Riots broke out in Jordan at the seemingly ineffectual response of the Jordanian military and its apparent inability to protect Palestinian civilians in the West Bank.  The Samu raid inflamed Arab public opinion in the Middle East and turned out to be one of the factors leading up to the Six-Day War of 1967.

The Six-Day War (1967)--In a rapid pre-emptive attack, Israel crushed the military forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria and seized large amounts of land from each. Iraq also participated in the fighting on the Arab side.

The War of Attrition (1968-1970)--The War of Attrition was a limited border war fought between Egypt and Israel in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. It was initiated by Egypt as a way to recapture the Sinai Peninsula after losing it to Israel in 1967. A cease-fire in 1970 ended the fighting, but left the borders unchanged.


The Yom Kippur (Ramadan) War (1973)--In a surprise attack launched on the Jewish Yom Kippur holiday (the dates also fell on the Muslim Ramadan holiday), Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. Despite aid from Iraq, the Arab forces failed to defeat Israel.

Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1978)--Operation Litani was the official name of Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon up to the Litani river. The invasion was a military success, as the Israeli military expelled the PLO from Southern Lebanon, where they had created a de facto state within a state. An international outcry over the invasion forced a partial Israeli retreat and the creation of a United Nations patrolled buffer zone between the Arab guerrillas and the Israeli military.

The Osirak Raid (1981)--An Israeli air attack on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor.

The Israeli Invasion of Lebanon (1982-1984)--In response to repeated guerrilla attacks by the PLO, which were launched from South Lebanon, Israel invaded with the intent of destroying Arafat's forces. Syria, which maintained a large army in Lebanon, fought Israel and suffered an embarrassing defeat.

The Israeli Occupation of South Lebanon (1984-2000)--As they withdrew from most of Lebanon seized in the 1982 invasion, Israel held onto a large part of Southern Lebanon with the aid of the "South Lebanon Army (SLA)," a militia set up and supported by Israel. This occupation was opposed by the PLO and other Palestinian groups as an extension of their long-running conflict with Israel. Also, other militia armies (mostly Lebanese Muslim groups), such as Hezbollah (supported by Iran and Syria), stepped up attacks on the Israeli-occupied region as well as on settlements and military targets in northern Israel. In 2000, Israel withdrew from Lebanon and the SLA disbanded.

The First Intifada (1987-1993)--Urban uprising against Israeli rule in the West Bank and Gaza. The Oslo Peace Accords end the Intifada and lead to the formation of the Palestinian Authority with PLO Chief Yasser Arafat as the official leader of the Palestininans.

M1-Lightning wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

M1-Lightning wrote:

That's a moronic reply. I hope you never have children. Ha ha. Wasn't Timothy Mcveigh a civilian? Wasn't he an enemy of the US? duh

Yeah he was a civilian who blew up a load of children. Not a civilian preparing dinner in their kitchen or taking the dog for a walk. Your catch-all statement suggest that all arab civilians should be punished for the acts of a few.

BTW I was scolded earlier for this myself. Try not to make personal attacks please.

PS Maybe the US should have shelled Oklohama City when they were looking for McVeigh eh?

And your catch all statement is that every target of Israel's is "a civilian preparing dinner in their kitchen or taking the dog for a walk." The militants attacking Israel are civilians, thus civilians are the enemy.

But not every civilian is the enemy is what my point is.