A question of sovereignty

2006-07-04 03:35:47

#1

spastic bullet: would like to know if you are on crack; +77|6782|vancouver

Cool heads only, please. If you can't comment without making unfounded assumptions, I suggest you give this one a miss. Hypotheticals are okay, but make it clear they are hypothetical.

Should this guy be tried in Iraq?

2006-07-04 03:41:33

#2

CommieChipmunk: Member; +488|6811|Portland, OR, USA

yes

2006-07-04 03:41:40

#3

DoctorFruitloop: Level 13 Wrongdoer; +515|6787|Doncaster, UK

Without every aspect of the case I think you will be very lucky to get people to comment without making some assumptions.

The way I read it, him and his buddies went out of their way to commit a crime in somebody else's country. I'd be one of the first to make the statement "you are in our country, you abide by our laws" so my personal opinion is that he should stand trial in the country where the crime was commited and be subject to their judicial system.

Just my $0.02

Doc

2006-07-04 03:45:45

#4

--->[Your]Phobia<---: Member; +35|6997|UK - England

Yes he MUST stand trial in Iraq. I agree very much with what DoctorFruitloop said.

2006-07-04 04:25:11

#5

spastic bullet: would like to know if you are on crack; +77|6782|vancouver

So that's 3 yes, 0 no.

Not sure why that particular article didn't mention it, but apparently these guys are from the same platoon as the two guys who were kidnapped and killed. They're currently investigating whether there is a connection.

2006-07-04 05:02:01

#6

Bubbalo: The Lizzard; +541|6802

Yes.

2006-07-04 05:11:50

#7

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|6906|NT, like Mick Dundee

Do the crime, do the time. He should be tried in Iraq.

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2006-07-04 05:13:03

#8

DoctorFruitloop: Level 13 Wrongdoer; +515|6787|Doncaster, UK

Sounds like a pretty resounding "YES" to me!

2006-07-04 05:36:12

#9

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6796

The guy committed the crime IN Iraq and should be tried IN Iraq. If he doesn't then Iraqi 'Sovereignty' is just a myth.

2006-07-04 05:39:47

#10

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6892|USA

I agree, he should be turned over to Iraqi justice, and if found guilty by their laws should be punished accordingly.

2006-07-04 14:16:56

#11

spastic bullet: would like to know if you are on crack; +77|6782|vancouver

I should have made this a poll, but for the record that's now...

100% Yes (9)
0% No (0)

I'm surprised not just at the one-sidedness of the result but also how few people contributed. On the other hand, I am pleased everybody who did contribute kept a cool head. Thanks and good on you all!

Maybe we need to make it more interesting and also address why this is almost certainly not going to happen. Again, keep it civil, please.

2006-07-04 14:40:34

#12

HM1{N}: Member; +86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

As a former military man, my answer is:

YES

2006-07-04 14:48:11

#13

S3v3N: lolwut?; +685|6759|Montucky

As a former Marine, I say

YES

**EDIT** Hypothetical, repeat, this is hypothetical.

Say i go to Canada, bust into a house kill 3 people and run off with a fat stack of cash and hide out in say Idaho, however comma space The Canadian authorities have figured out using Crime scene investigation that it was me, i won't stand trial in Idaho, i'd get transported back to Canada where i would stand trial and be punished.. 'nuff said.

Last edited by [1FR]S3v3N (2006-07-04 14:51:12)

2006-07-04 14:51:50

#14

herrr_smity: Member; +156|6869|space command ur anus

YES let him become Abdul bubbas prison bitch

2006-07-04 16:36:36

#15

misfire00: Lead Magnet; +26|7022|Charleston SC - USA

That's a horrendous crime. Yes.

2006-07-04 16:44:44

#16

Ikarti: Banned - for ever.; +231|6950|Wilmington, DE, US

Yes.

2006-07-04 17:23:04

#17

TehSeraphim: Thread Ender; +58|6964|New Hampshire

He should be tried in Iraq - much as if I were to commit a crime in another state I would be tried there and not in my home state.

Besides, if we were to drag him back to the US and try him here it would just piss off more muslims and be kind of hypocritical that we're helping them make a democratic nation but won't let them execute democratic justice.

2006-07-04 17:25:08

#18

Bubbalo: The Lizzard; +541|6802

he's already in the US

2006-07-04 17:33:46

#19

LockerFish: Member; +47|6947

You all make good points, and just to play the devil's advocate(I hope that's the correct use of that phrase), let me go.

This is a military situation. If he was a citizen, then by all means, he should be tried in Iraq. And I will admit I don't know technicalities for the following statements, but just run with me for a minute. This is a military situation. He was an armed soldier in an(whether this is how it's classified or not) occupying force. Maybe it's just me, but I think the military should deal with one of their soldiers. As long as he didn't do anything illegal to another soldier or off duty, the military should handle it.

I'm quite distraced right now so please ask questions so I can maybe explain things better before you start bashing me.

2006-07-04 17:40:21

#20

TheCanadianTerrorist: Member; +111|6796

He shouldn't even be tried.

The man deserves death.

2006-07-04 17:42:57

#21

2ndLt.Tucker: If you can read this, your already dead; +33|6923|Stillwater, Ok

LockerFish wrote:
You all make good points, and just to play the devil's advocate(I hope that's the correct use of that phrase), let me go.

This is a military situation. If he was a citizen, then by all means, he should be tried in Iraq. And I will admit I don't know technicalities for the following statements, but just run with me for a minute. This is a military situation. He was an armed soldier in an(whether this is how it's classified or not) occupying force. Maybe it's just me, but I think the military should deal with one of their soldiers. As long as he didn't do anything illegal to another soldier or off duty, the military should handle it.

I'm quite distraced right now so please ask questions so I can maybe explain things better before you start bashing me.

However he was discharged before the crime had been discovered. Which made him a civilian again. So having committed the crime in Iraq he should be tried and punished in Iraq. Also once he had gotten off duty for that day is when he and his culprits changed out of uniform to committ such an act. I say hand over the ones who did it to Iraq and let it be dealt with by them. Would also help to make a soldier think about what he does if he knows hes not immune to Iraq's laws. Had the sick prick over and let the punishment begin.

If i screwed up in Germany...not mattering if I am military or not. Which I am, i would still be subject to Germany's laws not the military's or the US's. However if i did it in the US i would get double shafted by the military and the US. LOL

2006-07-04 17:45:28

#22

RTHKI: mmmf mmmf mmmf; +1,741|6978|Cinncinatti

yes

2006-07-04 18:17:13

#23

Havazn: Member; +39|6935|van.ca

I say yes, he should face trial in Iraq. However, since he is already back on US soil, I think it very far fetched to consider the US Gov't will send him back to Iraq. Even so, if they did send him back, im sure they could pull some strings high up to have him extradited back to the US.

2006-07-05 08:43:47

#24

whittsend: PV1 Joe Snuffy; +78|6999|MA, USA

Do we have a SOFA with Iraq? Probably not.

It is implicit when one consents to serve that one will not be left to the mercy (or lack thereof) of a foreign power for actions undertaken on Uncle Sam's time; and that one will, instead, be held accountable to the UCMJ.

Given the fact that, unlike in, say, Germany, one is always 'on the clock' in Iraq (there aren't too many three day passes given out for a trip to Baghdad or Basra), the jurisdiction is clear: He can only be held accountable under UCMJ, and not Iraqi law.

Furthermore, I have signifiicant doubts regarding his ability to get a fair trial in Iraq, so this is probably for the best anyway.

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:
However he was discharged before the crime had been discovered. Which made him a civilian again.

I'm pretty sure that he can still be charged under UCMJ.

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:
If i screwed up in Germany...not mattering if I am military or not. Which I am, i would still be subject to Germany's laws not the military's or the US's. However if i did it in the US i would get double shafted by the military and the US. LOL

If you commit a crime in German territory you are accountable under German law, under the terms of the SOFA. If you commit a crime on a US base in Germany against a US entity, you are only accountable under UCMJ, unless I am mistaken.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-07-05 08:54:42)

2006-07-05 08:52:18

#25

tiptopT: Member; +72|6823|Scotland's Capital

Havazn wrote:
I say yes, he should face trial in Iraq. However, since he is already back on US soil, I think it very far fetched to consider the US Gov't will send him back to Iraq. Even so, if they did send him back, im sure they could pull some strings high up to have him extradited back to the US.

Tried in US under Iraqi law? (if possible). I dont think it should be a military thing because it was outwith the military (against a civilian and in civvy clothes)

But he SHOULD be tried!

EDIT: spelling

Last edited by tiptopT (2006-07-05 08:52:49)

BF2S Forums A question of sovereignty

LockerFish wrote:

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Havazn wrote:

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