Poll

Palestine, Israel, The West Bank, Jerusalem, etc...who's is it?

Palestinians - They were there first35%35% - 38
Israel - Britain said they could have it25%25% - 27
Neither - It is holy ground and should be for everyone38%38% - 41
Total: 106
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA
We all know about the problems in the Middle East.  We all know that war has been waged for centuries regarding Jerusalem and the land surrounding it...

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.  I can quote period after period where the Palestinians were massacred and their land stolen, where Israel began all the terrorist attacks that still take place today, but I won't get into that now.

Instead, I leave you with a couple of links regarding the history of Palestine and allow you to make your own choice.

Flame me if you want, -1 my karma if you want (just be a man and leave a reason and name).  This debate is open to serious discussion only.  Please don't resort to the "anti-semitic" line, instead, leave facts (not opinions) as to why you feel the way you do.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_history.php
http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6976|California

HM1{N} wrote:

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.
Try not to put any bias into your opening comments. And yes, based on that line, you are anti-semitic.

I think you started this post just to see how many people would agree with you.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6957
i thought jerusalem is already jewish land... and it is pretty much jewish territory, but i think they shouldnt pissed off the palestinians so much...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
-F8-Scotch
Member
+43|6810
Neither deserves the sole ownership of holy lands which by each group are defined as "theirs". Considering the actions of both the Palestinians and the Jewish peoples it's my opinion that each has blood on thier hands. Curiously enough I believe that there was a common state within which both Jews and Muslims lived side by side prior to the UN decision to create a "jewish" state. Once the West decided it was thier adjenda to create lands specifically for the Jewish people all bets were off. This action is another example of illegitimate influence in the middle east by European nations, namely Britain, while being supported by other "industrialized" nations. It's my belief that these decisions were reached with the best intentions for the Jewish people in mind yet with little foresight for the problems it would create. Whatever "solution" the west had in mind was ignoring the violence that had escalated since the influx of Jewish peoples to the future "Israel" area since the early 1900's. Once again the western powers, who had previously colonized and controlled many of the current middle eastern states, were playing match maker between two polar opposites with the idea that, due to thier "civilized" and "industrialized" status, they knew best.

Ignoring the Palestinian grievences would be just as illegitimate as ignoring the Jewish grievences of the 1920's. There seems to be little insight into how the world can achieve our lofty goals of peace between these two tribes of Judea. Being that each has legitimate rights to the holy sights currently split by fences, guards and guns, conflict in inevitable. Neither deserves thier own solution since each, Israel and Palestine, is steeped in illogical prejudice and hatred toward each other. Any two state solution is bound for failure, one state shared by both is not only realisitc but inevitable. All it takes is an understanding reached by both parties which resolves the differences of 5000 years.

There will be a future for Israel and Palestine yet to survive both must learn to agree to disagree. Each must uphold the values of the other without sacraficing thier own individuality and seperate traditions. Dues should be paid by both sides for the death and destruction caused by thier indignant actions. Forgiveness is also necessary to prevent future instability. Ultimately these two brothers torn by generations of conflict need to "bury the hatchet" and learn acceptance for either Israel or Palestine to have a future.

Scotch
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

Erkut.hv wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.
Try not to put any bias into your opening comments. And yes, based on that line, you are anti-semitic.

I think you started this post just to see how many people would agree with you.
Negative, I do not have a problem with Jewish people, just the Zionist one's. 

I don't have a problem with Mexican people, just the one's who are here illegally and rip-off our country.  Does that make me anti-Mexican?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796
Ah-ha - A topic close to my heart. I will return in a few hours (after work & the Brazil match) to post my opinions.

PS HM1{1} - while I broadly agree with your sentiments on the matter you are probably gonna get flamed for some inaccuracies and prejudices in your initial post. Just warning you.
parthian1000
Member
+8|6901|The Barbary Coast
If we're talking historical precedence the tribes of Israel have the first recorded claim to the land albeit right by conquest.  In terms of world religion, only Christianity and Judaism claim Jerusalem as the premier holy site.  The Muslim claim is based on tradition (the Haddith) not as part of their holy book (the Qu'ran) - the bit about Mohammed ascending to heaven from the rock is an apocryphal tale at best.  One could argue that, given Mohammed's admiration for the "Peoples of the Book" (i.e. Christians and Jews) his followers sought to associate the Prophet with the holy places of his religious precedents.  Certainly the story seeks to portray the Prophet in a way that raises him above the common man.

In any case the hatred, both mundane and religious, that exists between the two sides would seem to prevent any long term solution.  How can you negotiate when the avowed intention of the the two sides is to obliterate the other?  There will always be some fanatic who believes that by killing the opposition they will gain entry into "paradise" and one is enough to trigger a domino effect.  What is required is for one side to stop killing and to resist any further provocation to recommence.  Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation the indiscriminate murder of people is wrong in an absolute sense.

Last edited by parthian1000 (2006-06-27 07:42:10)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6770|Global Command
How far back do you go to determine ownership?
That land has been occupied by humanoids for 400000 years ( anthropology buff here ).
I think we should just outlaw religion and nuke whoever refuses to comply (a sarcasm ).
Fuck them religous fanatics, their giving us agnostic extremist ulcers.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

Ah-ha - A topic close to my heart. I will return in a few hours (after work & the Brazil match) to post my opinions.

PS HM1{1} - while I broadly agree with your sentiments on the matter you are probably gonna get flamed for some inaccuracies and prejudices in your initial post. Just warning you.
Yes, I expect that, but I am hoping for a serious discussion.

Note:  my feelings about the matter are based on fact (history as I know it).  I do not dispute that Jewish people have a right to a homeland.  Nor do I dispute that there are problems on both sides, blame on both sides, indignities suffered by both sides.

My underlying motive here is to gather popular opinion about a volatile and very meaningful situation that impacts all of us.  It is not to stir the hate pot, but rather, to have a meaningful dialog that may bring enlightenment to some (hopefully many), myself included.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6906|NT, like Mick Dundee

Erkut.hv wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.
Try not to put any bias into your opening comments. And yes, based on that line, you are anti-semitic.

I think you started this post just to see how many people would agree with you.
HE IS NOT ANTI SEMITIC... He is anti Zionist... BIG FRIGGING DIFFERENCE THERE.... HUGE...

I hate how often people confuse the two... He has no problem with the anti zionist jews (there is a large, and growing, movement of them...).


Jews were welcome in Palestine before it became Israel (as is documented, after the Balfour Declaration a huge influx of Jewish immegrants was seen in Palestine and they were made quite welcome).

My opinion, while the Palestinians are the rightful owners Israel has to stay where it is now. It is to late to change the situation.

I don't suppose many citizens of the US of A would like to be forced of their land because their ancestors didn't own it roughly 2000 years ago?
Hell, I'd be pissed if I was told I couldn't live in Australia because I'm not of Aboriginal decent.

Last edited by Flecco (2006-06-27 07:50:01)

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

Flecco wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.
Try not to put any bias into your opening comments. And yes, based on that line, you are anti-semitic.

I think you started this post just to see how many people would agree with you.
HE IS NOT ANTI SEMITIC... He is anti Zionist... BIG FRIGGING DIFFERENCE THERE.... HUGE...

I hate how often people confuse the two... He has no problem with the anti zionist jews (there is a large, and growing, movement of them...).


Jews were welcome in Palestine before it became Israel (as is documented, after the Balfour Declaration a huge influx of Jewish immegrants was seen in Palestine and they were made quite welcome).

My opinion, while the Palestinians are the rightful owners Israel has to stay where it is now. It is to late to change the situation.

I don't suppose many citizens of the US of A would like to be forced of their land because their ancestors didn't own it roughly 2000 years ago?
Hell, I'd be pissed if I was told I couldn't live in Australia because I'm not of Aboriginal decent.
Thank you for seeing the difference.
parthian1000
Member
+8|6901|The Barbary Coast
I don't suppose many citizens of the US of A would like to be forced off their land because their ancestors didn't own it roughly 2000 years ago?
Hell, I'd be pissed if I was told I couldn't live in Australia because I'm not of Aboriginal decent.
But then the Aborigines and the Sioux et al are probably pissed off that non natives are living there.  I'm not arguing that there is an absolute claim to the land, simply that either side can make claim to it using a variety of sources.  Neither of the sides can or should be afforded their ideal situation; instead they have to accomodate one another, as repellant as they may find such an accord to be.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6869|space command ur anus
its Palestinian ground
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6976|California
Heres a thought:

Can you name a people who haven't suffered some sort of hardship? Slavery, genocide, etc.....

Why is it the Palestinians can't get their crap together?

I think Palestine will never be what it truly can until they get their internal issues solved.

So, considering the Jews have been in the area for 3.2k years +/-, as well as the Palestinians, perhaps they should just work it out already, and knock off the bullshit.

Too many kids and hot chicks dying.
max
Vela Incident
+1,652|6808|NYC / Hamburg

BTW: the british were actually were against the creation of israel (they null vote = no).

And i think that the palestinians have the right on the land. they used to be there, then the WW2 ended and because the US did not want all the jews migrating to the US, they pushed the illegal (hey, it's against the UN charta) creation of israel. If they would have taken the jews up we would not have the problems in the middle east that we have now and be best pals.

EDIT: i like the us, they just screwed up big time with israel

Last edited by max (2006-06-27 09:54:21)

once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot  xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404.
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6976|California

max wrote:

BTW: the british were actually were against the creation of israel (they null vote = no).

And i think that the palestinians have the right on the land. they used to be there, then the WW2 ended and because the US did not want all the jews migrating to the US, they pushed the illegal (hey, it's against the UN charta) creation of israel. If they would have taken the jews up we would not have the problems in the middle east that we have now and be best pals.
Look kids! Another reason to hate the US!
max
Vela Incident
+1,652|6808|NYC / Hamburg

Erkut.hv wrote:

max wrote:

BTW: the british were actually were against the creation of israel (they null vote = no).

And i think that the palestinians have the right on the land. they used to be there, then the WW2 ended and because the US did not want all the jews migrating to the US, they pushed the illegal (hey, it's against the UN charta) creation of israel. If they would have taken the jews up we would not have the problems in the middle east that we have now and be best pals.
Look kids! Another reason to hate the US!
i dont hate the us .. i actually like them (most nations have made mistakes in history)

hope that all you government guys hear that ... please dont imprison me when i come to the us next time

Last edited by max (2006-06-27 09:40:02)

once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot  xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796
It's like this.

Palestine has been home to a wide variety of peoples at various points in time, for various lengths of time, all throughout history.

Before 1947 approximately 1,237,000 million ethnic arabs (muslims & catholics) lived in the region referred to as 'Palestine', in relative harmony with 608,000 jews (not technically an ethnicity: judaism is a religion, both jews and arabs are 'semites'). These numbers constitute 67% and 33% of the total population of 'Palestine' respectively.
The following pic gives you an idea of the spread of jews across the region at that time.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/Map_of_Jewish_settlements_in_Palestine_in_1947.png

World War II, for obvious reasons, prompted jews to relocate to anywhere BUT Europe. Many went to USA, some to the UK, some to Russia, some to South America but others decided to migrate to 'Palestine'. The mass migration to 'Palestine' was driven by an idea known as 'Zionism' which was being touted by one Theodore Herzl. 'Zionism' plays on biblical lore to suggest that jews should relocate to this region because it was granted to the jews by god. A relatively laughable concept if you are a logicla and rational human being. 

One should note that the jews of ancient times, according to the admittedly unreliable document known as the bible, roamed across much of the middle east for many millenia before taking this particular region known as Palestine by force and creating a 'Kingdom of Israel', a kingdom which lasted for approximately three centuries. When stronger forces rolled into town around 700 BC the jews dispersed all across the babylonian and roman empires.

So, in 1947-48, with hundreds of thousands of jews pouring into british-mandate Palestine, tensions naturally increased between the then inhabitants and the newly arrived immigrants. Acts some might describe as 'terrorism' were committed by both the Palestinians and the arriving Zionists. What wasn't appreciated by the arabs was the UN trying to gerrymander a state of 'Israel' cut out of the Roman/Ottoman region known as Palestine, one that would have a guaranteed jewish majority.

The UN failed in their attempts and the brits couldn't keep control and pulled out on a pre-defined date, at which point all out war between the arabs and the jews started. With superiour firepower and resolve (and with help from some tremendous tactical blunders on the parts of the arabs) the immigrants succeeded in massacring arabs and driving hundreds of thousands of men, women and children from their homes and land, never to see them again. They managed to claim far more land than they would have been granted under the UN plan and never returned this land to its rightful owners, nor did they pay reparations to the people who are now permanent refugees in surrounding countries, for the losses they incurred.

Various arab-israeli wars followed where the arabs were heavily defeated several times, allowing Israel to take control of the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Since then successive Israeli governments have sought to marginalise the inhabitants of these areas, oust them where possible and plant illegal settlements on land that they are not entitled to (by international law no less). The goal is to create a greater state of Israel along biblical lines. The cost however is the treatment of several million people as a modern day 'untermensch', in what can only be described as large open air ghettoes. It is ironic how the Zionists are now treating another race of people in similar ways as to those they were subjected to under nazi rule in europe. There may be no Zyklon B or furnaces, but stripping a people of hope and dignity and subjecting them to other forms of inhuman treatment is rife.

I say to Israel - enough is enough. The relevant arab parties have recognised that a state of 'Israel' is inevitable. It is time for Israel to withdraw fully from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, return stolen lands to the people they stole it from and pay reparations to those who will never see their homes again in the state of 'Israel' proper. They must allow a viable state of Palestine to exist - not strangle it in the hopes of a 'greater state of Israel'. It is the least that can be expected - Germany have paid reparations to the jews for the losses they incurred and tried in every way possible to atone for their crimes against humanity.

I find it shameful and deplorable that a group of arabs have had to pay the price for European crimes. Ideally a state of 'Israel' should have been carved out of Germany. It seems however that the injustice was just conveniently 'transferred out' of good old Europe.

PS When you think of Palestinian violence, however underhand or despicable, I would ask you to think about whether you regard the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as a valiant piece of heroism.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-27 16:35:56)

herrr_smity
Member
+156|6869|space command ur anus
does anybody know why the Jews left israel
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796

herrr_smity wrote:

does anybody know why the Jews left israel
They were pretty nomadic to begin with but it was largely due to successive waves of oppressive overlords like the Romans and the Assyrians (and they had a thing for weissbier and sauerkraut).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-27 15:39:53)

Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6906|NT, like Mick Dundee

max wrote:

BTW: the british were actually were against the creation of israel (they null vote = no).

And i think that the palestinians have the right on the land. they used to be there, then the WW2 ended and because the US did not want all the jews migrating to the US, they pushed the illegal (hey, it's against the UN charta) creation of israel. If they would have taken the jews up we would not have the problems in the middle east that we have now and be best pals.

EDIT: i like the us, they just screwed up big time with israel
Lol, the British started the founding of Israel. As previously mentioned it goes back to WW1 and the Belfour declaration.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
max
Vela Incident
+1,652|6808|NYC / Hamburg

Flecco wrote:

max wrote:

BTW: the british were actually were against the creation of israel (they null vote = no).

And i think that the palestinians have the right on the land. they used to be there, then the WW2 ended and because the US did not want all the jews migrating to the US, they pushed the illegal (hey, it's against the UN charta) creation of israel. If they would have taken the jews up we would not have the problems in the middle east that we have now and be best pals.

EDIT: i like the us, they just screwed up big time with israel
Lol, the British started the founding of Israel. As previously mentioned it goes back to WW1 and the Belfour declaration.
lol, actually britain funded their own empire, but after WW2 they were against the creation on a religios state (hey, iran is bad because it's muslemic, but israel is good since its a jewish state).
once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot  xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6770|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

One should note that the jews of ancient times, according to the admittedly unreliable document known as the bible, roamed across much of the middle east for many millenia before taking this particular region known as Palestine by force and creating a 'Kingdom of Israel', a kingdom which lasted for approximately three centuries. When stronger forces rolled into town around 700 BC the jews dispersed all across the babylonian and roman empires..
Very close but wrong in that the Jews were left largely unmolested at that time due to Sennacheribs bad luck.

Sennacherib destroyed the revolting Provence Babylon in 689 B.C.
He had left the siege of Judah to crush the uprising there, and now you know what happened to the hanging gardens of Babylon . After his army was decimated by plague while outside the walls of Jerusalem he was unable to destroy the city, as he had planned. That would have been the end of the state of Judah and the end of Judaism, and hence of Christianity and Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennacherib

http://www.historynet.com/mh/

Last edited by Alexanderthegrape (2006-06-27 17:27:35)

bigp66
Member
+63|6789|memphfrica-memphis,TN

HM1{N} wrote:

We all know about the problems in the Middle East.  We all know that war has been waged for centuries regarding Jerusalem and the land surrounding it...

I am personally against the Zionist Jews in Israel who believe they have a right to take what isn't theirs because they need a home.  I can quote period after period where the Palestinians were massacred and their land stolen, where Israel began all the terrorist attacks that still take place today, but I won't get into that now.

Instead, I leave you with a couple of links regarding the history of Palestine and allow you to make your own choice.

Flame me if you want, -1 my karma if you want (just be a man and leave a reason and name).  This debate is open to serious discussion only.  Please don't resort to the "anti-semitic" line, instead, leave facts (not opinions) as to why you feel the way you do.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_history.php
http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/
this is a bad poll...it doesn't have the option like the jews because they were there a lot earlier than the arabs....and how about when we put the jews into palistine they fought a war against most of the middle east for the land and the jews kicked the arabs ass...so the jews should have it since they fought the arabs for it and won

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