Poll

Who was responsible for the death of Jesus?

The Romans15%15% - 24
The Jews25%25% - 40
Himself16%16% - 26
Other12%12% - 20
Go Fuck Yourself29%29% - 47
Total: 157
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

Okay, by your logic:

Napoleon didn't exist

George Washington didn't exist

Alexander didn't exist

Constantine didn't exist

The Dead Sea Scrolls don't exist

Genghis Khan didn't exist

Kind Tut didn't exist

shall I go on???  These are all people written about during and after their time.  And to further refute what you say, the Gospels were written by people who lived WITH Jesus, and transcribed over and over...that to me is a first hand account of his existence.
1) Virtually all those people you listed can be proved by evidence a lot stronger than Jesus', I'm not going to investigate each one because we both know what you said is bollocks.  For a start, there are portraits of Naploen and George Washington as well as lots of proof of their existence.  There is no such evidence for Jesus other than scriptures written well after his supposed death.  I would also be pretty confident in finding documents and records for some of the people you listed which can not be done with "Jesus".

2)  One of the most well known facts about the Bible is that its authors are unknown.  This is accepted even by hardened Christians so to tell us now that it was written by his housemates is bollocks.  In truth, the Bible was most likely written by over 200 authors so Jesus must have had a f@cking big house.

P.S. Can you let me know now if you're one of the God bothering types that dismisses fact, logic and reason for some bull that comes out of a 2000 year old book?  Because I've tried to debate with people that think the Earth is only 5000 years old before and there's just no getting through to them
Ummm, no but you should go here:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/intr.html

The scrolls were written before his life, during his life, and after his death.  Proof of his existence dating back over 2000 years. (Yes the Scrolls were Carbon dated).

Esteban, it really seems that you are anti-religion and are vehement about pushing that attitude on others.  I really don't give a rat's ass if you are religious or not, the fact remains that there is substantiated proof that Jesus existed, and people worshiped God before then and before science even existed.  So you tell me, what has a longer history?  Belief in science and engineering, or belief in God?

Every day we are getting closer and closer to more proof, the Dead Sea Scrolls are only one cog in the proof wheel.  You might as well face the fact that He was here long before we were, and He will continue to be after we are all gone.

Last edited by HM1{N} (2006-06-26 08:34:41)

=OBS= EstebanRey
Member
+256|6791|Oxford, England, UK, EU, Earth

CameronPoe wrote:

Jesus was allegedly a political activist from 30-33 AD (approximately).
Sorry but I'm a syntax pedant...
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Well, the Romans were the ones who stuck him on the cross, so directly, they did. However, the Jews were the ones that told Pilate (or however you spell it) to kill him, so I suppose, they caused his death.
EDIT: Oh and why according to the title, did Jesus live for 3 years? Surely that doesn't make much sence. And when did Jesus try to overthrow a government. To the best of my knowledge, he went around teaching people about God, and performing miracles.
No you misunderstand - Jesus was a political activist from 30-33 AD (approximately).

The bible is not an accurate historical record of the time due to the numerous transcriptions, mis-translations, and re-workings of it. It is also largely metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally. Not to mention the fact that at the first ecumenical council of Nicaea, where Emperor Constantine I gathered all prominent Christian sects together to hammer out an organised religion, various 'gospels' (such as the coptic gospels) were dismissed and the four gospels of the new testament we know today were selected and doctored to suit the Emperor's political agenda (which included demonsiation of his jewish subjects in Palestine).

Actual accounts of the time and ancient scriptures that have been recovered (such as the Qumran and Nag Hammadi scrolls) make it far more likely that he was just another jewish preacher, preaching about how to be an obedient and moral jew. It is likely that he viewed the Romans as an affront to the sanctity of the land of Israel and wished them to be removed and became a martyr for the cause of a 'free Israel'.

If you are a logical human being you will realise that there are no such things as miracles.
I disagree, childbirth is a miracle.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796

HM1{N} wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

Okay, by your logic:

Napoleon didn't exist

George Washington didn't exist

Alexander didn't exist

Constantine didn't exist

The Dead Sea Scrolls don't exist

Genghis Khan didn't exist

Kind Tut didn't exist

shall I go on???  These are all people written about during and after their time.  And to further refute what you say, the Gospels were written by people who lived WITH Jesus, and transcribed over and over...that to me is a first hand account of his existence.
1) Virtually all those people you listed can be proved by evidence a lot stronger than Jesus', I'm not going to investigate each one because we both know what you said is bollocks.  For a start, there are portraits of Naploen and George Washington as well as lots of proof of their existence.  There is no such evidence for Jesus other than scriptures written well after his supposed death.  I would also be pretty confident in finding documents and records for some of the people you listed which can not be done with "Jesus".

2)  One of the most well known facts about the Bible is that its authors are unknown.  This is accepted even by hardened Christians so to tell us now that it was written by his housemates is bollocks.  In truth, the Bible was most likely written by over 200 authors so Jesus must have had a f@cking big house.

P.S. Can you let me know now if you're one of the God bothering types that dismisses fact, logic and reason for some bull that comes out of a 2000 year old book?  Because I've tried to debate with people that think the Earth is only 5000 years old before and there's just no getting through to them
Ummm, no but you should go here:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/intr.html

The scrolls were written before his life, during his life, and after his death.  Proof of his existence dating back over 2000 years. (Yes the Scrolls were Carbon dated).

Cameron it really seems that you are anti-religion and are vehement about pushing that attitude on others.  I really don't give a rat's ass if you are religious or not, the fact remains that there is substantiated proof that Jesus existed, and people worshiped God before then and before your precious science even existed.  So you tell me, what has a longer history?  Your belief in science and engineering, or belief in God?

Every day we are getting closer and closer to more proof, the Dead Sea Scrolls are only one cog in the proof wheel.  You might as well face the fact that He was here long before we were, and He will continue to be after we are all gone.  I can also bet that He will outlast your precious science, because after all, when the scientific idiots decide to destroy the world, He will be all that is left...
I never disputed the fact a person fitting the description of Jesus existed. I'm saying he was just an ordinary bloke like you and me. Well, an influential bloke rather.

God preceded science because people knew no better and sought reason when their minds did not have the capacity to explain. God was the convenient explanation for everything. Then we evolved and moved on, realising that we could explain the ways of the world through science and intelligent observation, enabling us to dispense with our archaic 'god' concept.

PS This is an opinion forum. I can express mine and you can express yours. If they differ then get over it. I'm not anti-religion as such, I'm just an atheist - if you want to be religious then go for it.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6890

CameronPoe wrote:

If you are a logical human being you will realise that there are no such things as miracles.
So you're saying that I cannot be religious and a logical person? I disagree, I am a logical person, and I know a large amount of people working in the scientific world, who are all strong Christians.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6885|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA

CameronPoe wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:


1) Virtually all those people you listed can be proved by evidence a lot stronger than Jesus', I'm not going to investigate each one because we both know what you said is bollocks.  For a start, there are portraits of Naploen and George Washington as well as lots of proof of their existence.  There is no such evidence for Jesus other than scriptures written well after his supposed death.  I would also be pretty confident in finding documents and records for some of the people you listed which can not be done with "Jesus".

2)  One of the most well known facts about the Bible is that its authors are unknown.  This is accepted even by hardened Christians so to tell us now that it was written by his housemates is bollocks.  In truth, the Bible was most likely written by over 200 authors so Jesus must have had a f@cking big house.

P.S. Can you let me know now if you're one of the God bothering types that dismisses fact, logic and reason for some bull that comes out of a 2000 year old book?  Because I've tried to debate with people that think the Earth is only 5000 years old before and there's just no getting through to them
Ummm, no but you should go here:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/intr.html

The scrolls were written before his life, during his life, and after his death.  Proof of his existence dating back over 2000 years. (Yes the Scrolls were Carbon dated).

Cameron it really seems that you are anti-religion and are vehement about pushing that attitude on others.  I really don't give a rat's ass if you are religious or not, the fact remains that there is substantiated proof that Jesus existed, and people worshiped God before then and before your precious science even existed.  So you tell me, what has a longer history?  Your belief in science and engineering, or belief in God?

Every day we are getting closer and closer to more proof, the Dead Sea Scrolls are only one cog in the proof wheel.  You might as well face the fact that He was here long before we were, and He will continue to be after we are all gone.  I can also bet that He will outlast your precious science, because after all, when the scientific idiots decide to destroy the world, He will be all that is left...
I never disputed the fact a person fitting the description of Jesus existed. I'm saying he was just an ordinary bloke like you and me. Well, an influential bloke rather.

God preceded science because people knew no better and sought reason when their minds did not have the capacity to explain. God was the convenient explanation for everything. Then we evolved and moved on, realising that we could explain the ways of the world through science and intelligent observation, enabling us to dispense with our archaic 'god' concept.

PS This is an opinion forum. I can express mine and you can express yours. If they differ then get over it. I'm not anti-religion as such, I'm just an atheist - if you want to be religious then go for it.
I didn't mean to quote you Cameron, I was reading the posts below and realized that it was Esteban who I was replying to, I corrected it prior to seeing your response.

As far as the God vs. Science argument goes: God gives us everything in this world, including the capacity to evolve and create.  That is what the teachings of religion state.  You can choose to not believe, that's fine and I have no ill-will towards you or your beliefs.

Do I believe in Science?  Yes
Do I believe in God?  Yes
Do I believe they coexist?  Yes

There are 2 camps in this world, believers and non believers.  On both sides there has been a war to recruit more members, both parties are equally at fault.  Who is right?  I don't know, but I do know this: in my heart I believe I have made the right choice and I can bet that the majority of people who are getting ready to die will also believe in the end.

One final thought: when our time comes, what will make us pay the higher price, not believing in science, or not believing in God?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796

HM1{N} wrote:

One final thought: when our time comes, what will make us pay the higher price, not believing in science, or not believing in God?
Well in my full confidence in the non-existence of any higher being I say: neither....

And for the record - I won't be 'turning to god' when I stare death in the face. I'll go towards death gracefully and with dignity - in full knowledge that I've accomplished all that I could and that I must now become wormfood.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-26 09:13:26)

parthian1000
Member
+8|6901|The Barbary Coast
Why is it that those of a reglious persuasion have to view everything in terms of war and conflict and to delineate the factions into two, diametrically opposed camps?  Its the wet dream of evangelists and zealots  the world over that there is some kind of secular organisation trying to strip the world of faith.  Moreover, it becomes the justification for all kinds of otherwise unconscionable actions.  There is no evil in the world except that which we inflict on ourselves.  Whats more I would argue that people of Faith are incapable of self sacrifice - for where is the sacrifice for those who believe they will attain "paradise" for their actions?  Only those who look death in the face and realise there is nothing but oblivion beyond can truly sacrifice themselves.
SGT.Mays
Member
+2|6983|Ohio
Well miracles can and do happen everyday. I know I was a firefighter. I have seen and pulled people out of buildings that should have killed everyone in there. I've seen people with no hope of living pull through to be normal people. Ive seen car accidents where there was no way in Hell anyone should have walked away but, they still did. I've  seen too many miracles to let someone say there is no such thing. Walk into a cancer survivor's meeting and you'll learn alot about miracles, people with a month to live "science" telling them they where going to die. That was 5 years ago. So many miracles are preformed everyday you just choose to ignore them as such.
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6867|Sea to globally-cooled sea
That is a very difficult question.  I studied this in school, and I'm still not sure.  The Catholic Church says the Romans, although I have to think that that's half political and half history.

I finally voted the Romans, because the bottom line is, Pilate was a coward.  He knew that Christ was innocent but turned him over anyway.  Just because people WANT something doesn't mean they were the ones who did it.  What I mean is, the Jews did not have the authority to do as they wanted--they needed to appeal to Pilate.

I say, the blood is on the hands of Pilate and the executioners.

Shmizmar wrote:

What the fuck...I'm Jewish!!

That's bullshit...And even if "my people" did kill Christ..Who gives a shit now!!?
What many Christians (foolishly) do not understand is that Christ had to die so that they might be saved.  It is in Jewish scripture that the Messiah would have to suffer, die, and rise from the dead.  Whether you believe that Jesus of Nazareth did or did not do these things is one thing, but Jews of all ages know that the Messiah would need to do these things.

On a much weaker level, to be mad that Jesus died is like being mad that people died on the beaches of Normandy.  We measure these things not by quantity but by merit.

As far as pointing blame...Remember, during the last supper Christ said "Better for him had he never been born," referring to Judas.  He did not blame a race, be it Roman, Jewish, or what have you.  Jesus himself was Jewish, mind you.

Now, perhaps this entire thread was created to point blame, and perhaps it was not.  Regardless, any Christian should be grateful that we can say that Christ died for us.

Would Christ's death be as significant if he had tripped and fallen down a mountain at age 33?  It was by our sins and for our sins that he had to die.  He needed to hand himself over.  Any circumstantial death would not have been a sacrifice.

Praise God Christ died for us and didn't just give up and go home. 

Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-06-26 12:52:16)

comet241
Member
+164|7006|Normal, IL
he was put on this earth to die for our sins, so i guess he himself is responsible. i know this because i went to catholic gradeschool for 10 years, which is the reason i dont go to church anymore.....

yes im catholic, no i dont practice, rather consider myself an agnostic, but i do, sadly, know everything about the bible and god. only had to go to mass 6 times a week, 9 months a year, for 10 years, it kinda sticks with you.
topal63
. . .
+533|6959
No one is responsible for this death. . . there is NO historical PROOF Jesus ever existed.
There is no archeological evidence either.

NONE.

Anyone that claims there is - is full of it. . . ignorant  belief that is.

The Dead sea scrolls have nothing to do with Jesus as a figure of history. . . they have more to do with particular Semitic myths, poetic hymns, Essene practices, etc. . .

All of the mentions of  “Christos in history - form the acknowledgement of a Greek-type mystery-cult existing - nothing more. And all of the mentions of the new-cult appear many decades after the supposed god-man dying myth. And many of those early forms of the new-cult were quite different from what that cult is now. But Jesus; the Christ character; as a man; is a missing figure - from history.

The emergence of the new cult (& the gospels) is historically in line with the digestion of the Hebrew tradition by the Roman elite (trained in Greek). The tradition came into the possession of the Roman Empire at the direct request of the Jews. Being a multi-cultural society the Romans allowed many forms of faith to exist with no regulation of that faith as long as it did not challenge the political authority of the Roman Empire. When great numbers of Jews became Hellenized, the Jewish elite became worried about cultural-religious nihilism and requested the Roman scribes to translate the Hebrew Bible (Jewish myth & practice, gathered and canonized by Ezra as Cryus the ruler of Persia allowed Ezra and followers, in captivity in Babylon, to return to Israel-Judea) the result was the Septuagint about a century and half before the emergence of a new god-man myth. All of the known canonized gospels were written in Greek (not any Semitic-tongue).

The Greek synoptic gospels Mark, Mathew & Luke (Mark being the oldest & the most complete based upon the # of supposed Jesus sayings) & the much later John - are not first person accounts. They are typical impersonal mythical writings authored anonymously subscribed to a name as to suggest power and authority to the writing (and this was a common practice). The Gnostic gospels - the same - Greek mystery-cult writings anonymously authored and subscribed to an authoritative name.

Sons of gods were common to antiquity. Jesus represents nothing new. What is new is Saul of Tarsus (The Christian-cult oppressor & Jew, renamed Paul) and his masochistic interpretation of the new cult (his dogma and doctrine of faith is what is new).

Plain & simple.

Last edited by topal63 (2006-06-26 10:52:38)

-=5TON3D
Member
+42|6775|u.k
maybe he turned too much water into wine & died of alci poisoning lol.
MOG Disciple
Member
+8|6759|Wisconsin
I need to say WE all nailed Jesus to the cross.  He died for our sins.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6873|949

Why is the sky blue? 
Why is water wet?
Why did Judas grab the Romans while Jesus slept?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6796
MOG Disciple's sig seems to suggest we should climb back up our mothers vaginas and have her give us the old 'push, push' treatment one more time....

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-26 11:21:38)

G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6867|Sea to globally-cooled sea

topal63 wrote:

No one is responsible for this death. . . there is NO historical PROOF Jesus ever existed.
There is no archeological evidence either.

NONE.

Anyone that claims there is - is full of it. . . ignorant  belief that is.
Do some research, you fool.  Don't be blind.  The Romans themselves have written documentation of Jesus of Nazareth.
topal63
. . .
+533|6959

G3|Genius wrote:

topal63 wrote:

No one is responsible for this death. . . there is NO historical PROOF Jesus ever existed.
There is no archeological evidence either.

NONE.

Anyone that claims there is - is full of it. . . ignorant  belief that is.
Do some research, you fool.  Don't be blind.  The Romans themselves have written documentation of Jesus of Nazareth.
Supply it [the Documentation] smarty-pants Mr. Non-fool - for I know otherwise (I know the FACTS with precision). I am fairly certian that your "belief" of documentation is just that - a belief. A belief that amounts to a misrepresentation of what is really laid down in the archived historical record. There is only proof that a cult was in existence/or emerging around 40-100 AD. Nothing else is evidenced; not the man; but rather a cult assigned a myth and a name.

Here is a little further expansion of the FACTS.

All of the mentions of  “Christos in history - form the acknowledgement of a Greek-type mystery-cult existing - nothing more. And all of the mentions of the new-cult appear many decades after the supposed god-man dying myth. And many of those early forms of the new-cult were quite different from what that cult is now. But Jesus; the Christ character; as a man; is a missing figure - from history.

The emergence of the new cult (& the gospels) is historically in line with the digestion of the Hebrew tradition by the Roman elite (trained in Greek). The tradition came into the possession of the Roman Empire at the direct request of the Jews. Being a multi-cultural society the Romans allowed many forms of faith to exist with no regulation of that faith as long as it did not challenge the political authority of the Roman Empire. When great numbers of Jews became Hellenized, the Jewish elite became worried about cultural-religious nihilism and requested the Roman scribes to translate the Hebrew Bible (Jewish myth & practice, gathered and canonized by Ezra as Cryus the ruler of Persia allowed Ezra and followers, in captivity in Babylon, to return to Israel-Judea) the result was the Septuagint about a century and half before the emergence of a new god-man myth. All of the known canonized gospels were written in Greek (not any Semitic-tongue).

The emergence of the new god-man myth is astrologically associated with a prior to Christ god-myth form; the ram (Aries) and this constellation was being replaced as the dominant constellation by the fish (Pisces); and thus a new god.

In 128 B.C.E. the Greek astronomer Hipparchus of Rhodes discovered the precession of the equinoxes.

As the earth's axis slowly shifts its orientation in space, it traces out the surface of a double cone in space. Because of the axial wandering, the points where the celestial equator (the projection of the earth's equator onto the celestial sphere) intersects the ecliptic (the apparent path made by the sun against the background of "fixed stars") move also, shifting clockwise around the ecliptic as seen by the northern hemisphere. It takes 25,800 years for the points of the intersection to move all the way around the ecliptic.

Views from the earth, the universe of stars seemed to the ancients to be attached to the great "celestial sphere" which had the Earth as its center. The "celestial equator" is the projection of the earth's equator upon the inside of the sphere. The circle of the ecliptic is the path which the sun appears to follow against the background of "fixed stars." The zodiac is a belt of sky, extending 9 DEGREES above and below the ecliptic, which can be divided into twelve zones of equal size, each characterized by the presence of a particularly prominent constellation. The moon and visible planets all appear to move within the confines of the zodiacal belt. The equinoctial points are two places where the equator intersects the ecliptic, at an angle of approximately 23.5 DEGREES. Hipparchus of Rhodes discovered that the position of the equinoxes was not constant. He determined that the vernal (spring) equinox had once been in the constellation Taurus but had, by his day, moved ("precessed") almost all the way through the constellation of Aries. At the beginning of the Christian era, the vernal equinox moved into Pisces (the Fish).

When Hipparchus discovered that the vernal equinox had been displaced from Taurus into Aries, he or some of his disciples felt that they had detected the labor of a hitherto unknown god. (Many Greeks felt that each natural phenomenon or physical force was actually the working of a particular god.) For astrological reasons, this new god was identified with the ancient Persian god of Mithra (Ahura-Mazda). The mystery religion known as Mithraism thus was born, by adopting an existing god-myth of old. Mithra was installed as a Time-Lord or chronocrat, the god who would rule over the age; or Aeon; of Aries.

By the time Hipparchus and his Greek-Stoic colleagues understood that the vernal equinox had moved from Taurus into Aries, the equinox was almost out of Aries as well. Very soon it would move into Pisces, and a new Time-Lord would be needed. Just as movement of the equinox out of Taurus had been symbolized as the sacrifice of a bull, so too, the movement out of Aries would come to be symbolized by the sacrifice of a lamb. The first symbol of the new-age religion, the religion reigning in the age of Pisces, significantly, would be the fish.
What is simple is you have Greek-astrologers & Greek-scribes who worked on the Septuagint - predicating the age of the fish; a new god & god-man; and the sacrifice of the lamb symbolic of the emergence of the new god-cult. God man is a fisher of men and the sacrificial-lamb. It’s appearance [of the Christos-cult] follows the same form as the emergence of the cult of Mithra: old myths were adapted to the astrological beliefs of the Greek mystics.

The Greek synoptic gospels Mark, Mathew & Luke (Mark being the oldest & the most complete based upon the # of supposed Jesus sayings) & the much later John - are not first person accounts. They are typical impersonal mythical writings authored anonymously subscribed to a name as to suggest power and authority to the writing (and this was a common practice). The Gnostic gospels - the same - Greek mystery-cult writings anonymously authored and subscribed to an authoritative name.

Sons of gods were common to antiquity. Jesus represents nothing new. What is new is Saul of Tarsus (The Christian-cult oppressor & Jew, renamed Paul) and his masochistic interpretation of the new cult (his dogma and doctrine of faith is what is new).

G3|Genius wrote:

. . . Jesus of Nazareth.
Apparently you also need some education on this namesake appellation. I am busy right now - but will get back to you the real meaning and origin of this.

Last edited by topal63 (2006-06-26 12:09:43)

Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6896|United States of America
The Republicans are responsible for the death of Jesus.
spacebandit72
Dead Meat
+121|6971|Michigan
Well, The way I see it... Pilot had to (politically) crucify Jesus. It is taught in Christianity that we have to live by gods rules and mans law. That is why Jesus accepted his death without muttering a word. He went gracefully.
It has been said many times here. The Jews demanded Jesus be killed. The Romans had to do it.

As for the arguing back and forth about Jesus existence... The whole idea of Christianity is faith. We don't need proof other than the bible. The miracles we read of in the bible do not exist anymore because we have to have faith. In the "bible" days, the Jews were a very "see it to believe it" type of people. That's where the miracle thing came in.

For modern Christians all we have is faith.
For all other non-believers... you have your opinions and some good arguments and that is good for you.
Nobody totally agrees with another I mean, this community cannot even agree on if stats are important or not!!! That is just human nature.
One thing we all should try to agree on is respect.

OK, I'm done.
topal63
. . .
+533|6959

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Just to clear things up a little, a few clarifications-

. . . Atheism is defined as the absence of belief in God.
This is another sub-standard overly simple dictionary definition that is in no way clarifying nor enlightening; nor necessary - to be offered up. Atheism is not an ABSOLUTE definition, as you have pointlessly offered up the simple already known definition, and what I suggested is a color (a linguistic shade) of its use in another semantic sense.

I don't think an operational definition of the shade of meaning (like-atheism or atheistic-in-some aspect) the one I expressed is; or was; necessary. It was rather clear. People often are not - believers or non-believers. They are OFTEN a mixture of both states, depending upon which mythology is in question.

spacebandit72 wrote:

Well, The way I see it... Pilot had to (politically) crucify Jesus. It is taught in Christianity that we have to live by gods rules and mans law. That is why Jesus accepted his death without muttering a word. He went gracefully.
It has been said many times here. The Jews demanded Jesus be killed. The Romans had to do it.

As for the arguing back and forth about Jesus existence... The whole idea of Christianity is faith. We don't need proof other than the bible. The miracles we read of in the bible do not exist anymore because we have to have faith. In the "bible" days, the Jews were a very "see it to believe it" type of people. That's where the miracle thing came in.

For modern Christians all we have is faith.
For all other non-believers... you have your opinions and some good arguments and that is good for you.
Nobody totally agrees with another I mean, this community cannot even agree on if stats are important or not!!! That is just human nature.
One thing we all should try to agree on is respect.

OK, I'm done.
.
.
.

The Bible is not proof of anything.

And, you are a non-believer as well - you are even an atheist. And you offer this up as a reason = "you don't need proof " - because you are a believer.  Yet you are simultaneously NOT. You do not accept the mythical revelations of Mohamed - you are an atheist to this revelation. You are an atheist to Dionysus; Apollo; and its cults, myths and beliefs. You are an atheist to Hinduism - yet you have no reason to be. Your faith is based upon nothing.  And this is common. You are an atheist to almost all mythology - save one.

I am an atheist to all mythology - yet I am not an atheist to God.

GATOR591957 wrote:

Jesus did exist.  .  .
That is a patently FALSE statement. In terms of truth - what you actually know - not what you believe (not-truth).

What is correct is this:
Jesus might have existed. . . yet what is known is utterly suspect (as the literal truth goes).  What is known-able conforms to simple mythical forms that are common and pre-existing in that era of antiquity.

Last edited by topal63 (2006-06-26 15:00:45)

GATOR591957
Member
+84|6868
Jesus did exist.  Did he exist in the context currently portrayed, who knows.  Since he did exist, my view is he himself allowed his own death.  He spoke at the last supper that one would betray him.  So he knew it was going to happen and allowed it.  Actually, you could say God himself because we are taught he put Jesus on this Earth to pay for our sins through his death.
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6868

Major_Spittle wrote:

The Republicans are responsible for the death of Jesus.
Most likely.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6873|949

Just to clear things up a little, a few clarifications-

Pontius Pilate is the correct spelling in English

Atheism is defined as the absence of belief in God.  That is, I, as an atheist, do not have a belief in God either way.  I do not believe he exists, I do not believe he doesn't exist.

Carry on the discussion!
Xietsu
Banned
+50|6797

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Just to clear things up a little, a few clarifications-

Pontius Pilate is the correct spelling in English

Atheism is defined as the absence of belief in God.  That is, I, as an atheist, do not have a belief in God either way.  I do not believe he exists, I do not believe he doesn't exist.

Carry on the discussion!
You're seeking the term known as Agnosticism. You can't believe something doesn't exist and then say you don't believe that this something doesn't exist--it's purely contradictory to do so.

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