They werent talking about the universe, they were talking about OUR galaxy. Reason and probablities show a Creator, not luck. The movie and book is made by scientists, some who work for nasa. Can you please show me how going against impossible odds is logical?CameronPoe wrote:
I hardly think we know enough about the universe to accurately calculate the probability of a planet being habitable. That movie piece was low on detail, high on imagery and approximation. Things such as dark matter are only now coming to be understood. How can we know exactly how many planets there are in the universe? How can say anything concrete about the universe given what we yet have to learn about it?JaMDuDe wrote:
What they are saying is that life didnt happen by chance. If you use common sense its not reasonable to say it happened by chance when the odds are 1/1,000,000,000,000 and there are only 6,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Those are the odds when they gave a 1/10 value to each factor. Thats only one of probably hundreds of things that show theres a creator.CameronPoe wrote:
Watched the movie. Essentially what they're saying backs up my statement that this planet is inhabitable because of a coincidence of a number of different factors. This universe is vast beyond comprehension. The fact that the probability of earth being inhabitable is low means nothing as in a universe this large there are bound to be several planets capable of sustaining life. We just happen to be on one of them...
PS how on earth was that movie supposed to validate the theory that a 'supreme' being exists?!?!?
The fact that this planet is habitable is completely down to chance. You believe in God, I believe in reality and probabilities. Because you have no explanation for certain things or because certain things are quite unlikely you choose to say god is responsible, something which you can provide no tangible evidence to prove. That's fine - if that's what makes you tick then that's fair enough. I prefer logic, reason, common sense and rationality.
Poll
Are you a Christian?
| I would like to be | 50% | 50% - 157 | 50% | 50% - 157 | ||
| I don't want anything to do with that! | 55% | 55% - 174 | 44% | 44% - 140 | ||
| Total: 314 | ||||||
You obvisouly aren't an engineer or scientist. I am. You have said something that is INCORRECT. The odds are NOT IMPOSSIBLE. The video even states the, rather dubiously calculated, odds of earth being inhabitable. It's irrelevant whether they were talking about the galaxy or the universe. We are just a complex biological scum that has developed on the surface of a rock that happens to be a convenient distance from a star that will burn out in the next few billion years. There's no higher power at work here.JaMDuDe wrote:
They werent talking about the universe, they were talking about OUR galaxy. Reason and probablities show a Creator, not luck. The movie and book is made by scientists, some who work for nasa. Can you please show me how going against impossible odds is logical?CameronPoe wrote:
I hardly think we know enough about the universe to accurately calculate the probability of a planet being habitable. That movie piece was low on detail, high on imagery and approximation. Things such as dark matter are only now coming to be understood. How can we know exactly how many planets there are in the universe? How can say anything concrete about the universe given what we yet have to learn about it?JaMDuDe wrote:
What they are saying is that life didnt happen by chance. If you use common sense its not reasonable to say it happened by chance when the odds are 1/1,000,000,000,000 and there are only 6,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Those are the odds when they gave a 1/10 value to each factor. Thats only one of probably hundreds of things that show theres a creator.
The fact that this planet is habitable is completely down to chance. You believe in God, I believe in reality and probabilities. Because you have no explanation for certain things or because certain things are quite unlikely you choose to say god is responsible, something which you can provide no tangible evidence to prove. That's fine - if that's what makes you tick then that's fair enough. I prefer logic, reason, common sense and rationality.
PS Reason and probability never show a 'creator'. The two concepts are mutually exclusive as the 'creator' theory can NEVER be proved.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-25 09:28:16)
Ok, not impossible, but you making your computer explode and it falling back together isnt impossible either. The odds are 1/trillion with 6 billion stars. Logic and reason shows me that its EXTREMELY unlikley that we are here by chance.
We have no idea how many stars there are in total. You can't selectively choose one galaxy, our galaxy, to prove something using probability. Mathematically speaking you would need to include the totality of all planets and stars in all galaxies. There are probably several planets in teh universe that support some form of life. We happen to be on one of them. The fact that each planet has a low probability of it having the ability to support life does not mean that we are here by design. The god theory is purely a belief that's all. It can have no basis in fact. If you want to believe in god then that's your prerogative. But don't try and say that because we happen to be lucky enough to reside on an inhabitable planet that that is proof of some divine overlord (because it isn't!).JaMDuDe wrote:
Ok, not impossible, but you making your computer explode and it falling back together isnt impossible either. The odds are 1/trillion with 6 billion stars. Logic and reason shows me that its EXTREMELY unlikley that we are here by chance.
Science shows that luck isnt the best explanation for our existence. Our planet was made to be inhabitable and for scientific discoveries. If youd rather believe yourself than science go ahead.
Edit: reworded for camerons response
Edit: reworded for camerons response
Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-06-25 13:28:34)
ok, so now let's leave the christians to their belief...well, along with all the other religions, that is. If they wish to believe there is a creator, and that we must live by his rules, good for them. I don't so I won't.JaMDuDe wrote:
Science shows chance isnt the best explanation for our existence. Our planet was made to be inhabitable and for scientific discoveries. If youd rather believe yourself than science go ahead.
Religion is impossible to discuss. There is too much controversy, too much emotion involved. Was this even the point of the topic in the first place?
Science doesn't show that chance is the reason for our existence, rather it shows that we are lucky, based on mathematical probability, to have had the opportunity to evolve on a planet whose conditions suited the formation of life so well. We are not unique in this. There are probably other planets out there that can sustain life. Our planet was not made by any one 'entity' or fanciful fabrication of the mind. The earth formed by obeying the laws of physics and gravitation, from matter dispersed throughout the universe during the big bang (big bang is still a theory I must add however).JaMDuDe wrote:
Science shows chance isnt the best explanation for our existence. Our planet was made to be inhabitable and for scientific discoveries. If youd rather believe yourself than science go ahead.
It is mathematically and scientifically impossible to prove that a 'creator' exists. I think you fail to grasp what constitutes scientific proof.
Maybe God created 'George the Omnipotent' to play with your head?CameronPoe wrote:
Maybe an even more powerful deity called 'George the Omnipotent' created 'god' to do stuff like that. It's all equally preposterous and fanciful.HM1{N} wrote:
Maybe God put it there?CameronPoe wrote:
Maybe there's a teapot containing a million dollars orbiting the earth at a height of 25 miles - an equally plausible assertion (that would actually be possible to verify (unlike the god theory!!)).
maybe, but theres no proofHM1{N} wrote:
Maybe God created 'George the Omnipotent' to play with your head?CameronPoe wrote:
Maybe an even more powerful deity called 'George the Omnipotent' created 'god' to do stuff like that. It's all equally preposterous and fanciful.HM1{N} wrote:
Maybe God put it there?
earlyer someone explained that the ocean moves because of gravity, now i accept this as fact but can someone please tell me what causes gravity, why it exists why does a mass have an atraction to another mass, i am faily competent that this has not been descovered, so you cannot say it is not amazing that the earth is in steady orbit, as there is no logical explination.
btw time is just a perception and will continue for ever, mix this with the big bang big crunch big bang theory and every conseivable event will happen, so life is bound to form eventually so i do not accept this as a valid proof of god, and advise people not to use it as one, belief is just that a belief, and is impossible to be proved one way or another
also due to chaos theory it is practically imposible to prove anything by practical observation or experiments as we cannot measure to perfect accuracy. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html
i believe in one god maker of heaven and earth
btw time is just a perception and will continue for ever, mix this with the big bang big crunch big bang theory and every conseivable event will happen, so life is bound to form eventually so i do not accept this as a valid proof of god, and advise people not to use it as one, belief is just that a belief, and is impossible to be proved one way or another
also due to chaos theory it is practically imposible to prove anything by practical observation or experiments as we cannot measure to perfect accuracy. http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html
i believe in one god maker of heaven and earth
Last edited by jimmanycricket (2006-06-26 02:59:20)
I believe that God gave us free will and that is why we have homosexuality. Homosexuality is a perversion and a lie from satin himself.Big McLargehuge wrote:
Someone else already said this but ill repeat it.
If Homosexuality is wrong. Then why would GOD create gay people?
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
1Ki 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I believe that you can leave the homosexual lifestyle you just need to fall on your face before God and ask for forgiveness.
I believe that you need to go to church to fellowship with others. I believe that you are ho you hang around with. The 10 commandments are hard for any to follow. I am a sinner saved by grace just like everyone else, I still sin, however I have asked for forgiveness from the one who has never sinned.(Jesus)aardfrith wrote:
What does it mean to be a Christian? Do you have to go to church? If so, how regularly? Is it enough to follow the 10 commandments? If I see a Samaritan on the other side of the road, do I have to go help him?
I think I'm a Christian as I do try to follow the big 10 but as for church, it's weddings and funerals only.
As for the Samaritan on the other side of the road help those who need help
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
As for are you a Christian? Have you ever asked Jesus into your life?
Do you have any life outside of church? According to them, you probably shouldn't play Battlefield 2 either, as you're killing people constantly
Oh well...do what you like, I'll get on with living my (not god's) life
Oh well...do what you like, I'll get on with living my (not god's) life
Last edited by Konfusion0 (2006-06-26 08:58:56)
I have a great life outside of church. In the church I am the sound guy, I am the commander for the AWANA program( the children's program.)Konfusion0 wrote:
Do you have any life outside of church? According to them, you probably shouldn't play Battlefield 2 either, as you're killing people constantly
Oh well...do what you like, I'll get on with living my (not god's) life
Outside the church I own an Insurance agency with over 10 agent working with me. I have a lovely wife and 3 kids. I play a lot of BF2 my wife and son, and oldest daughter also play. My personal belief is killing is different them murder.
so killing a few guys in war doesn't count?MOG Disciple wrote:
I have a great life outside of church. In the church I am the sound guy, I am the commander for the AWANA program( the children's program.)Konfusion0 wrote:
Do you have any life outside of church? According to them, you probably shouldn't play Battlefield 2 either, as you're killing people constantly
Oh well...do what you like, I'll get on with living my (not god's) life
Outside the church I own an Insurance agency with over 10 agent working with me. I have a lovely wife and 3 kids. I play a lot of BF2 my wife and son, and oldest daughter also play. My personal belief is killing is different them murder.
Killing happened in the Bible a lot. If you murder someone in cold blood for selfish desires I believe is different.
Exo 20:13 Do not murder.
Exo 20:13 Do not murder.
Play doom 3 konfusion and then tell me that its a sin to play a game as violent as bf2.
Se now that is too gory for meJaMDuDe wrote:
Play doom 3 konfusion and then tell me that its a sin to play a game as violent as bf2.
I'm not saying it's violent...fcs, it doesn't even have blood effects for that matter...MOG Disciple wrote:
Se now that is too gory for meJaMDuDe wrote:
Play doom 3 konfusion and then tell me that its a sin to play a game as violent as bf2.
I'm just saying, if you go by christian moral views, killing in any form should be wrong. Personally, I have different views...
Killing in real life is wrong, any other form is stress relieving and ok
It looked gory and violent to me from what I've heard but then again I've never played the game.
By the way Konfusion0, "Best pickup line in the whole world: Hey, does this smell like chloroform to you?"
That is not funny at all I believe that statement promotes and advocates violence.
Please remove that would you please
By the way Konfusion0, "Best pickup line in the whole world: Hey, does this smell like chloroform to you?"
That is not funny at all I believe that statement promotes and advocates violence.
Please remove that would you please
Darth_Fleder wrote:
Proud to be a Christian.
It is a joke, and it's not here to promote rape. I have it from another forum, a thread that would surely not appeal to you, seeing as it's about a guy who's in love with his cousinMOG Disciple wrote:
It looked gory and violent to me from what I've heard but then again I've never played the game.
By the way Konfusion0, "Best pickup line in the whole world: Hey, does this smell like chloroform to you?"
That is not funny at all I believe that statement promotes and advocates violence.
Please remove that would you please
No I am not a Christian and more to the point, I'm not prepared to believe in any divine being that would condemn three quarters of humanity to somewhere as supposedly terrible as Hell for going to the wrong building on a Sunday morning. Moreso, I think I'd rather go there than spend eternity with the bunch of smug, self-righteous, self-congratulatory buffoons that clog up my road on a Sunday morning with their massively oversized cars and who think that singing out of tune for 15 minutes and listening to some chinless wonder in a cassock ramble on for another 45 somehow qualifies them for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.
As for the whole "intelligent design" arguments flying around are we saying it is MORE likely that a magic man in the sky created life on earth than any other possible explanation like serendipity or even alien intervention?
As for the whole "intelligent design" arguments flying around are we saying it is MORE likely that a magic man in the sky created life on earth than any other possible explanation like serendipity or even alien intervention?
Last edited by parthian1000 (2006-06-27 07:16:36)
O_o You're quoting the Bible (The book written in 4th Century AD) to back up the argument that God is real?
Also, why did Jesus have to die to save us? What would have happened if he had lived? In the Bible, from what I've read, it never actually tells us that we are alive today because He died. I'm not saying that your belief is false, I'm merely curious/sceptical.
Also, why did Jesus have to die to save us? What would have happened if he had lived? In the Bible, from what I've read, it never actually tells us that we are alive today because He died. I'm not saying that your belief is false, I'm merely curious/sceptical.
Jesus died on the cross so that we may live. He was sinless and we are sinners. I still sin from time to time however I am a sinner saved by grace. I don't think that it is relay about is Jesus real, because He did relay live on earth. Go to the history books, NOT OUR SCHOOL BOOKS but real history and you will find that Jesus lived and then died on a cross. Hate to tell you but the Bible is a history book!tehmoogles wrote:
O_o You're quoting the Bible (The book written in 4th Century AD) to back up the argument that God is real?
Also, why did Jesus have to die to save us? What would have happened if he had lived? In the Bible, from what I've read, it never actually tells us that we are alive today because He died. I'm not saying that your belief is false, I'm merely curious/sceptical.
I believe that the real problem is that so many people feel that Christians think that they are better then everyone else. We are a bunch of rule makers and just want to judge everyone. This is not true. Yes there are people that exploit and are in it for power and wealth that is a fact, however this could be said about every religion, business, and from every walk of life.
What is being a Christian to me?
I believe that it is my "Job" to tell others about Jesus and and to live your neighbor as yourself. You all are my worldly neighbors. So I am commanded to love you all. Not to judge you but to show you how to find Jesus.
Jesus died because He loved YOU
“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)
"God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8)
He loved you so much that He sent his only Son to die for your sins.
“But He was wounded for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.” (Leviticus 17:11)
If Jesus would have lived we would have all gone to Hell.
I can not prove that Jesus is the Son of God with words over the Internet. I do pray that He will show Himself to you, for this is the only way it says: