kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6789|Southeastern USA
in reference to marconius

I tend to define a party by it's actions, not it's words, one does not have to fit all the definitions of it's status, the only definition that fits my conservatism as practiced is "moderate and cautious", as well as favoring reform, and being openminded

liberal economics as practiced in the US are hardly self-regulating as they continually push for more taxation, redistribution, and more governmental control

as far as the reactionary policies I was referring to, I meant it as knee-jerk reaction, as in, "someone died let's leave Iraq immediately" without any regard for the longterm effects of this policy, i sense an Iraq flame starting now

you'll find that total tax revenue intake has increased as a direct result of the tax cuts, as they allow more venture and investment capital to remain in the market place, the current federal debt is due to increased spending on the part of Washington, not the tax breaks, I'll find and post some stuff when I gots mo time


I was trying to keep my explanation as evenhanded and broad as possible so as not to start a flame thread, but I guess I'll have to delve into a flame-worthy analogy to explain my point

the difference between the parties according to their actions, not their words is as follows:

A Democrat walks down the street and is asked by a beggar for some change for food, he gives him some and goes home, immediately gratified that he has given someone else food for one day, regardless of the fact that the guy will still be hungry tomorrow

A Republican walks down the street and is asked by a beggar for some money for food, he tells the baggar he can get ten times that if he mows his lawn, the baggar has a job with which he can earn food tomorrow
LordMelkor666
Member
+2|6766
i agree mostly.. although i think we should have left Iraq, but not because we lost soldiers, i think its pointless to waste money fighting their civil war..
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6934|San Francisco
As I said before, I'm working from definition.  Dropping into real-world examples won't work here because then all we'll do is start bickering and arguing over real world events, thus leading into a flame war.  If we can discuss political theory, then that will be all the better for both sides.

The tax revenue increases from the lower classes, as the government can stress them to pay more, while ALL of the tax breaks made by Republican leaders have favored the wealthiest sector of our society.  Doing so appeases the wealthy, and keeps them interested in supporting those responsible.  You end up getting into some extreme social and economic binds when you try to get both ideals to fall one way or the other in the political spectrum.  There will always have to be a balance.

I'm for more taxation as that will bring more money into the government, which in the long run will advance the prosperity of the nation.  If the government has enough money to fund education, healthcare, social security, and has money left over to invest back into the society, then it will spawn a sustainable growth cycle.  This is an example of thinking ahead.

Dropping taxes and forcing those with less money/capital to pay more to the government satisfies the powerful 1% of the nation's wealth for the time being, plus gives investment security to whatever controlling party initiates said cuts. 

The Right/Republicans tend to favor less government control, spreading the power out to the States which eventually can turn into power to the most wealthy of the society, namely corporations holding oligopolistic control over certain markets.
Wasder
Resident Emo Hater
+139|6915|Moscow, Russia
Thank you guys for extensive answers, now I know a lot more about the major political forces of US.
Rosse_modest
Member
+76|7016|Antwerp, Flanders

Major_Spittle wrote:

I would laugh at the Leader of Russia but I don't even know who he is so I will just refer to him as the irrelevant Rooskie with bad teeth, bad hair, birthmarks, and vodka on his breath.
You've got to be kidding me. You've never heard of Vladimir Putin?
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6789|Southeastern USA
Pronounced Pootin!!!!
nelson496
Member
+3|7025
no i dont vote democrat because I'm an atheist.  Some of the issues of the democrats I agree with but since I'm an atheist, some of the issues don't apply to me.
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6998|MA, USA

Marconius wrote:

The Democratic Party consists of members who believe in a democratic system of government, is for a stronger central government and is for social expansion/social programs.  They tend to lean towards the Left of the political spectrum.

The Republican Party consists of members who favor a republic system of government, looser/smaller governments with a trend of Conservativism, and tend to fall to the Right of the political spectrum.
The Democrats share the Republican desire for a Republic, and the Republicans share the Democratic desire for our system to be democratic.  Neither idea is exclusive of the other, and the names of the parties in no way mirror their agenda.  The remainder of Marconius's explanations are broadly correct in theory, but in practice the parties are not so dedicated to their ideals.

LordMelkor666 wrote:

...seeing how our country was based off of a christian based religion. this seems very stupid and unconstitutional, seeing as how God is the reason for the constition, they used his rules as guidelines...
God may be mentioned in the Constitution, but he is not the basis or the reason for it.  How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?

LordMelkor666 wrote:

The Republican Party.

well we like to lower the taxes...
If only it were true.  In fact, GWB has spent more than any President than Johnson (including Clinton).  That is an impressive growth of government.  In truth, there is little debate in this country about the size of government any longer.  No Republican since Reagan has made any serious effort to reduce government.  The simple fact is that the Keynesian ideal has taken firm hold of both parties:  Large government with largely unrestricted spending.  The conservative ideal of small, limited government is dead, and on fiscal matters the only controversy is over how the loot should be spent.

LordMelkor666 wrote:

we go to war.. republicans often go to war much more the democrats
Also not true.  Read your history books.  Democrats were in charge during wartime much more often than Republicans.  This is quite probably a historical accident, but Democrats don't like to admit it anyway, because it makes it harder for them to paint Republicans as warmongers.

LordMelkor666 wrote:

our current president is a republican.. but hes a complete dumbass.. (i honestly think its not our business to be in Iraq fighting their civil war.. we should have left after we got Sadam) but what can i say?? at least he is better then Kerry or Gore (the oposing canidates)

In conclusion on the republican party.. we are also complete idiots.. but we arent as stupid as the democratcs we also do alot of retarded things. but we do some good things as well.
It's hard to argue with that.  Remember, however, even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally; both parties do something right once in a while, but for the most part both are monsters designed and dedicated to obtaining and holding power.  Pity the poor souls who actually believe either stands for any real principles, as both parties have rarely failed to compromise their platforms when a question of money or power is in question.

Marconius wrote:

ALL of the tax breaks made by Republican leaders have favored the wealthiest sector of our society.
This is a misleading statement characteristic of Democrats.  Any tax cut, which in absolute terms, allows the upper strata of society to retain more of their money than is retained, in absolute terms, by the lower strata, is branded as 'favoring the wealthy.'  Of course, because the 'wealthy' pay so much more in taxes than the 'poor', it is impossible to have any tax cut which does not do this.  Thus, the Democrats essentially reject any tax plan which allows people anyone to retain more of their money.

Marconius wrote:

I'm for more taxation as that will bring more money into the government, which in the long run will advance the prosperity of the nation.  If the government has enough money to fund education, healthcare, social security, and has money left over to invest back into the society, then it will spawn a sustainable growth cycle.  This is an example of thinking ahead.
Here's the thing: Government isn't any good at providing services - those who are good at providing services are usually so because they are in competition with others.  If another entity provides better service, a company will lose business, so it is in a company's best interests to provide the best service it can.  When government provides a service (generally paid for through compulsory taxation collected under threat of force; whether a citizen wants the service or not), it usually eliminates the competition in whole or in part, either directly or through a huge regulatory or tax burden, and therefore has no incentive to improve the service.  There isn't much more to say than that. 

The Federal budget is the largest budget of any entity of any kind on the planet, and is growing.  Nevertheless, it does not appear, even with all that cash, to be getting better at any of the things it does.  I have no confidence that it will be any good at doing the things it doesn't currently do, and hope it never gets the opportunity to do so.  If it tries, I suspect it will bankrupt its citizens, and fail miserably in any case.  I would much rather retain my own cash, and make my own way.  Except for three things, all essential government services could be paid for through user fees.  The three are: Police/Justice, Fire, Military.

Marconius wrote:

Dropping taxes and forcing those with less money/capital to pay more to the government satisfies the powerful 1% of the nation's wealth for the time being, plus gives investment security to whatever controlling party initiates said cuts.
A little simplistic, and not entirely true.  Have you noticed that a disproportionate number of wealthy people favor large government policies?  The reason why is simple.  Corporations, many of which are not very competitive, are as much a drain (or possibly more so) on taxpayers as some drunk getting welfare.  Non-competitive business depends on huge regulatory burdens and exclusionary trade practices of government to stay in business.  If fat-cat American businesses truly had to compete on the world stage, many of them would fail dramatically.  Free trade is not desirable to many large corporations, as it would expose them to lean and trim foreign competition.  Because of this, they will endorse the inefficient policies of the tax and spend government, either in plain sight or behind the scenes.  Make no mistake, the Dems might not get as much as the GOP from business, but they almost make up for it with contributions by those who OWN business.

One last point on this:  A  tax cut is worthless without a spending cut.  Your statement implies that services stay the same when taxes go down.  If this is the case, there is no point in reducing taxes, as they will simply have to be raised later to accommodate the spending.  You may be afraid of Bush's tax cuts, but you shouldn't be.  His out-of-control spending will eventually have to be paid for, which means the tax cuts are purely smoke and mirrors for the rubes.

Marconius wrote:

The Right/Republicans tend to favor less government control, spreading the power out to the States which eventually can turn into power to the most wealthy of the society, namely corporations holding oligopolistic control over certain markets.
As already noted, the Republicans, in reality, do not favor any less government control than the Democrats, and corporations love big government.
Darth_Fleder
Mod from the Church of the Painful Truth
+533|7046|Orlando, FL - Age 43

Marconius wrote:

I'm for more taxation as that will bring more money into the government, which in the long run will advance the prosperity of the nation.  If the government has enough money to fund education, healthcare, social security, and has money left over to invest back into the society, then it will spawn a sustainable growth cycle.  This is an example of thinking ahead.

Dropping taxes and forcing those with less money/capital to pay more to the government satisfies the powerful 1% of the nation's wealth for the time being, plus gives investment security to whatever controlling party initiates said cuts.
Actually Marconius, the Bush tax cuts have had the effect of raising income to the government. April tax receipts were the second highest in history.

AP wrote:

A flood of income tax payments pushed up government receipts to the second-highest level in history in April, giving the country a sizable surplus for the month.

In its monthly accounting of the government's books, the Treasury Department said Wednesday that revenue for the month totaled $315.1 billion as Americans filed their tax returns by the April deadline. The gusher of tax revenue pushed total receipts up by 13.4 percent from April 2005.

It marked the largest one-month receipt total since the government collected $332 billion in revenue in April 2001, reflecting a boom in capital gains from stock investors lucky enough to cash out their investments before the bursting of the stock market bubble in early 2000.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/10/D8HH2VM08.html
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6789|Southeastern USA
Thanks fleder, i was waiting to get home to a broader bandwidth to post something like that, in truth, EVERY taxpayer in America has received no less than 3 tax cuts under the current administration, no matter what income bracket they fall into, this allows for more small business investment and small business, despite what the Enron focused media would have you believe, is the driving force behind the American economic machine

The "evil rich" still pay a grotesquely disproportionate amount of the federal tax revenue, when I do get home to that broader bandwidth I will post some links, I will probably post new instead of editing here
LordMelkor666
Member
+2|6766

whittsend wrote:

God may be mentioned in the Constitution, but he is not the basis or the reason for it.  How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?
well lets see... most of the founding fathers were of a christain religion.. and alot of the rules in our government are established within the bible.. (as in being treated fair and all that jaz, God doesnt believe in slavery) and if God was mentioned.. dont you think it had something to do with him..??
joewardog
Member
+6|6931|Great Plains (USA)

LordMelkor666 wrote:

whittsend wrote:

God may be mentioned in the Constitution, but he is not the basis or the reason for it.  How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?
well lets see... most of the founding fathers were of a christain religion.. and alot of the rules in our government are established within the bible.. (as in being treated fair and all that jaz, God doesnt believe in slavery) and if God was mentioned.. dont you think it had something to do with him..??
Oh man, fracken learn to spell and then read up again on your Fracken Own history. 

"God doesn't believe in slavery." 

Okay if that was true, then why did the founding fathers agree that one Black person was = to 3/5 of a white citizen?

The point you clearly missed Melkor is that just because people may have believed in God, government was something completely seperate.   Just read the Preamble to the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Where in that is God involved? 

The pure beauty in the US Constitution is that in an era of monarchies, here was a new system based off Locke's Social Contract (with an American twist).  The power rests not in individuals, but a responsible citizenry.

Now my 2 cents when it comes to the US party system.

In a lot of modern industrial countries, the parliamentary system of government has taken prominence.  The focus of this system is soley upon a party and the party (or parties) opposing them. 

US, I still believe, focuses not on the party but on your elected official.  The exact same reason districts (such as district 8 of Minnesota) keep sending the same Rep to Washington D.C. every election.  It is not because he's a Democrat, but because he's an iron range boy who doesn't necessarily votes straight party lines.   For America, it is your representative that hopefully has the real influence.
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6998|MA, USA

LordMelkor666 wrote:

whittsend wrote:

God may be mentioned in the Constitution, but he is not the basis or the reason for it.  How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?
well lets see... most of the founding fathers were of a christain religion.. and alot of the rules in our government are established within the bible.. (as in being treated fair and all that jaz, God doesnt believe in slavery) and if God was mentioned.. dont you think it had something to do with him..??
Your argument does not follow logically.  Because the framers of the Constitution were Christians, it does not follow that the Constitution is a Christian document.  Because God is mentioned, it does not follow that it is a religious document.  Because some laws parallel those in the Bible, it does not follow that those laws are based on the Bible.  You are making a leap of faith.  I don't share your faith, so forgive me if I don't jump.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6934|San Francisco
*facepalm*
Not this again...

The Framers were not christians.  They were Deists.  The Constitution was not drafted around christian ideals, but more around Greco-Roman bylaws and standards.
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6975|California

Marconius wrote:

As I said before, I'm working from definition.  Dropping into real-world examples won't work here

Marconius wrote:

ALL of the tax breaks made by Republican leaders have favored the wealthiest sector of our society.
Uh.... okay.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6934|San Francisco
Sorry about that.
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6975|California
See roughly 13 posts above, same one. I merely seperated them for emphasis.

Edit: Just fekkin with ya.

Last edited by Erkut.hv (2006-06-21 09:15:33)

whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6998|MA, USA

Marconius wrote:

The Framers were not christians.  They were Deists.
Some were and some weren't.  Jefferson was most definitely a Deist...Franklin probably was one.  Washington and several others were Christians.

You are absolutely correct that the basis of the document is not Christianity.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6941

Darth_Fleder wrote:

Marconius wrote:

I'm for more taxation as that will bring more money into the government, which in the long run will advance the prosperity of the nation.  If the government has enough money to fund education, healthcare, social security, and has money left over to invest back into the society, then it will spawn a sustainable growth cycle.  This is an example of thinking ahead.

Dropping taxes and forcing those with less money/capital to pay more to the government satisfies the powerful 1% of the nation's wealth for the time being, plus gives investment security to whatever controlling party initiates said cuts.
Actually Marconius, the Bush tax cuts have had the effect of raising income to the government. April tax receipts were the second highest in history.

AP wrote:

A flood of income tax payments pushed up government receipts to the second-highest level in history in April, giving the country a sizable surplus for the month.

In its monthly accounting of the government's books, the Treasury Department said Wednesday that revenue for the month totaled $315.1 billion as Americans filed their tax returns by the April deadline. The gusher of tax revenue pushed total receipts up by 13.4 percent from April 2005.

It marked the largest one-month receipt total since the government collected $332 billion in revenue in April 2001, reflecting a boom in capital gains from stock investors lucky enough to cash out their investments before the bursting of the stock market bubble in early 2000.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/10/D8HH2VM08.html
I believe Marconius' point was that the tax policy of this administration heavily favors the wealthy, and statistics agree. Why not do a little reading:
http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-04tax-sum.htm
http://www.cbpp.org/1-30-06tax2.htm
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6767|Portland, OR USA
Regardless of what the framers were or were not, religious tolerance is what drove them here to begin with.  So their genesis is really less pertinent than their intent.  How pertinent THAT remains is really a function of our present society.  The doctrines laid out in our nation's history were law for their day, but not infallible.  Which is why we have a bill of rights, and the other ammendments to the constitution.  Even the Bible had ammendments, they're called the New Testament.  Not that I am trying to bring THAT debate into this really.  Just a point of reference.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7077
Wanna see Nonsense onbound from north Korea ? Elect a Democrat for The US President.
Lt.Phoenix
Banned
+17|6798
democrats suck dick
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6769|Global Command

Marconius wrote:

I'm for more taxation as that will bring more money into the government, which in the long run will advance the prosperity of the nation.  If the government has enough money to fund education, healthcare, social security, and has money left over to invest back into the society, then it will spawn a sustainable growth cycle.  This is an example of thinking ahead..
But it's been documented that when the tax rate is decreased overall revenues have been shown to increase, leading to more money for schools etc.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6934|San Francisco
Tax rates go down = higher personal revenues since corporations aren't paying taxes.  Consequently, if tax rates go down, the government's revenue goes down, and either has to "outsource" so to speak the funding to corporations who are willing to invest or just keep cutting budgets in favor of what the current administration deems necessary at the time.  If there are no taxes, there is no return on the Fed's investment into society, both locally and globally.

I WILL use a current event here.  The House just passed a $94.5 Billion bill to fund the invasion, along with a few riders to aid Katrina relief and border security.  Albeit these are things that currently need funding, the funds and resources requested annually are affecting us in the long run.  Congress also has pulled money out of social services, healthcare, and education in order to fiscally balance this constant expenditure.  Without taxation, the Fed will have a tremendously hard time to build it's own wealth/resources back in order to put more money back into the national services it provides.

If you want complete corporate/private control of the nation, then I guess you'd support the withering of the central government as such...
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6889

Horseman 77 wrote:

Wanna see Nonsense onbound from north Korea ? Elect a Democrat for The US President.
It's a shame that you always have to go ruin my opinion of yourself. You can occasionally make some posts that make sence, and are actually worthwhile, but then you go ruin it by posting shit like that.

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