TF501|Slee
Member
+18|6758|Michigan
<RANT>
Why is it there are server admins out there who like to kick people from commanding from a vehicle?

Are they such crappy players that they can't conceive of someone actually fighting AND commanding at the same time?  Man, go find some skillz, and leave me the F alone. 

Yes, it can be done. 
Yes, it can be done effectively.
No, it isn't a waste of a vehicle.  (definitely not in AF)

"OMG, OMG, he's in a VEHICLE!  KICK him!  KICK him!  WAhhhhhhh!!!"

I'd like to see (for a change) some server admins kick some worthless POS commanders who sit in a bunker back at the uncap and do nothing to help their team on the battlefield.  Lazy SOBs.  Lame, pure and simple.

</RANT>

If you're a reasonable server admin who does NOT kick players who have the skill to command AND drive, shoot me a msg.  I'd like to play on YOUR server.
the_B3
BF2s EU 2142 Server Adore
+69|6829|The Netherlands
Uh.. Can you watch your commander screen, predict the enemymovement, drop arty, UAV and supplies for those who need it and point out enemy troops ánd drive and kill at the same time????
I think you're God!
[/sarcasm]
Mr.E
HakLaw in the house
+103|6748
sry but your totally wrong....if you believe you are somehow helping your team to vitory you are a noob commanders that fight are actually doing nothing since the kills/caps they make dont mean jack....its the teams average score that goes to you....and if you kill sum1 nd say tht "its one less enemy for my comrades" then u are wrong since if you let your comrades kill him the team has a better chance of winning....you talk about the POS commanders DOING there job and you call them lame??? ffs get the facts b4 you put stuff like that on the forums.

GL Andy
TF501|Slee
Member
+18|6758|Michigan
So capping flags for my team is actually counter-productive?  And having the ability to drive the short distance between one cap and the next then drop arty, supplies and get UAV going, as well as spot random enemies on overhead is impossible?  Wow, I MUST be a god.
Mr.E
HakLaw in the house
+103|6748
The only productive thing that comes from capping is an extra spawn point for your team and you are correct in saying that.....but it would be wiser to send a squad to cap it since if you die your team doesnt have your assets. And spotting random enemies overhead while driving along is impossible unless you like driving off cliffs/into trees.

GL Andy
Viper38
Member
+118|6857
Simple reason I'm afraid ... it's against the RoE. Read them and you will discover that a commander is prohibited from using any vehicle except for transport purposes. Now, of course, there is a certain amount of flexibility on this issue especially when a server is under populated or a vehicle is free.

Sometimes, if a server has only a few players on it (say 20 on a 64 man) then I think it is important for the commander to help the front-line forces, at least to a limited extent. However, if a server is full the BEST place for a commander (assuming your team isn't full of noobs) is at the rear monitoring the movement of enemy forces and directing friendly units against pockets of resistance or unguarded flags.  To carry out these operations effectively a commander must devote almost total attention to his command screen, unless he comes under direct attack.

On the other hand a good commander can very often be located at a capable flag, usually one that is rarely attacked but as a very last line of defence. Idling in a transport or AA/Ground defence position (something a lot of commanders do) is just a part of the game, for good or bad.

I think the point you've raised is a complex one and individual server circumstances could dictate different courses of action. Yet in general, I would suggest that a commander must be in the rear, out of harms way with his command screen on 24/7.

My two pence

Edit: In response to the post below: A good commander will be constantly spotting enemies using his command screen ... which, gives him much greater powers of observation than a commander 'driving past in a vehicle'

Last edited by Viper38 (2006-06-16 16:44:33)

TF501|Slee
Member
+18|6758|Michigan
Seriously, you never spot enemies while driving or running for your teammates?

Wow, I knew I was in the minority, but that's pretty sad.  I'm constantly spotting tanks and choppers as I drive by (don't usually have the proper equipment to engage them)  I probably spot more enemies for my teammates as a regular squaddy than most commanders do.  Helps us win as a team all the quicker. 

As for capping spawn points for my team, yeah, it's absolutely essential sometimes.  If my team persists in going "down the throat" for 10 minutes and gets nowhere, it behooves me to hop in an FAV and head around to the back to cap a new spawn.  It never fails, as soon as that flag goes up my team spawns in droves in the NME's rear.  This is especially helpful on Harvsest where the MEC base is cap-able.  Then I can whip out the C4 and take out my opposites resources.  After I cap their base I hope in THEIR AA vehicle and guard it against helo re-caps.  Why is this:
1.  Improbable?
2.  Not team-friendly?



Viper, yeah, I suppose if the ROE are clearly stated in the server splash screen while you join or in in-game messages that's one thing.  If you're booted unceremonisly, that's another.  Regardless, it still seems an arbitrary policy to me.  As, you stated, there are situations where it makes more sense and some where it makes less.  If I've got a crack team, all organized into squads who are obeying orders OR have enough situational awareness to cap flags where needed and realize we're losing them elsewhere, I'll sit back in seclusion and devote 100% of my time to assisting them do THEIR job.    If not....I'm getting in a vehicle - especially if there are vehicles sitting unused, OR I've invaded the enemy base and there are now a SURPLUS Of vehicles.   After all, one vehicle in my hands is one less in THEIR hands.


Oh, and to the anonymouse negative karma dropper who said    "     stat whore, fuck you "  you obviously don't get the gist of trying to promote more teamwork.  Sounds like the same breed who kneejerk kicks under false assumptions.

Last edited by TF501|Slee (2006-06-16 05:43:41)

Mr.E
HakLaw in the house
+103|6748
If your spotting enemies it means your spotting enemies that are in your main view....if you use the sat. image and zoom in to enemies at the other side of the map where your team are....now that would be productive commandeering.

GL Andy
Viper38
Member
+118|6857

TF501|Slee wrote:

Seriously, you never spot enemies while driving or running for your teammates?

Wow, I knew I was in the minority, but that's pretty sad.  I'm constantly spotting tanks and choppers as I drive by (don't usually have the proper equipment to engage them)  I probably spot more enemies for my teammates as a regular squaddy than most commanders do.  Helps us win as a team all the quicker. 

As for capping spawn points for my team, yeah, it's absolutely essential sometimes.  If my team persists in going "down the throat" for 10 minutes and gets nowhere, it behooves me to hop in an FAV and head around to the back to cap a new spawn.  It never fails, as soon as that flag goes up my team spawns in droves in the NME's rear.  This is especially helpful on Harvsest where the MEC base is cap-able.  Then I can whip out the C4 and take out my opposites resources.  After I cap their base I hope in THEIR AA vehicle and guard it against helo re-caps.  Why is this:
1.  Improbable?
2.  Not team-friendly?



Viper, yeah, I suppose if the ROE are clearly stated in the server splash screen while you join or in in-game messages that's one thing.  If you're booted unceremonisly, that's another.  Regardless, it still seems an arbitrary policy to me.  As, you stated, there are situations where it makes more sense and some where it makes less.  If I've got a crack team, all organized into squads who are obeying orders OR have enough situational awareness to cap flags where needed and realize we're losing them elsewhere, I'll sit back in seclusion and devote 100% of my time to assisting them do THEIR job.    If not....I'm getting in a vehicle - especially if there are vehicles sitting unused, OR I've invaded the enemy base and there are now a SURPLUS Of vehicles.   After all, one vehicle in my hands is one less in THEIR hands.
Agreed
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6903
i would only be a combat commander when my team is losing... which never happens a lot when im commander
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
fierce
I love [fiSh]
+167|6755
Everything has said why a commander shouldn't be sit in a vehicle, especially tank. If i get killed by a non-spotted enemy and see the commander messing around in a tank, i'll be the first who teamkills the commander, make the vehicle available for someone who can actually use it proper and help the team and force the commander to do his job!

If you see me in any kind of vehicle, it's just for defend for something e.g. someone trying to blow up commander assets or stealing empty armor, a quick ride to a flag etc. After the job is done the vehicle will given to someone who uses and deserves it (e.g. an engineer for armor).
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6812|Home of the Escalade Herds
You can command better driving a vehicle, killing things, avoiding death, capping flags then a commander whos dedicated to watching the battlefield?

What happens when you die, oh right, 15 seconds of having no UAV/Arty/Scan/Supply drops ect ect.

Stop fooling yourself, you're not commanding if you're out in the field.
Cbass
Kick His Ass!
+371|6881|Howell, Mi USA
Commanders shouldn't fight. A good commander will run a sat scan everytime it's available to keep constant track of every enemy on the battlefield. Also keep track of his squads and spot enemy's for them. If a commander is flying hes not going to see he just sent his infantry squad into the enemy flag where 2 tanks and an APC are waiting. It's also a good idea to run a UAV for a squad entering a flag. I guess a commander can do his job and fight, but there is no way a fighting commander can do his job to it's fullest. A dead commander is a useless commander.

Ive been a true blue ground pounder for a while but i do have 70+ hours in attack choppers. When im having some fun letting my gunner blow away infantry, i don't know theres an enemy tank rapeing a flag on the other end of the map. When the commander spots armor i pull up the tac map real quick and see where it is and go take him out.

Last edited by Cbass (2006-06-16 07:25:09)

https://bf3s.com/sigs/bb53a522780eff5b30ba3252d44932cc2f5b8c4f.png
Sin-nisterMinister
You have been blessed... with my rifle!
+43|6783|Bellmawr, NJ, US

Cbass wrote:

Commanders shouldn't fight. A good commander will run a sat scan everytime it's available to keep constant track of every enemy on the battlefield. Also keep track of his squads and spot enemy's for them. If a commander is flying hes not going to see he just sent his infantry squad into the enemy flag where 2 tanks and an APC are waiting. It's also a good idea to run a UAV for a squad entering a flag. I guess a commander can do his job and fight, but there is no way a fighting commander can do his job to it's fullest. A dead commander is a useless commander.
Well said.  If you're commander and capping flags and fighting, it sounds like you're using the commander assets for your own benefit instead of your team's.  I'd vote yes for kick.
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6813|Sea to globally-cooled sea

TF501|Slee wrote:

<RANT>
Why is it there are server admins out there who like to kick people from commanding from a vehicle?

Are they such crappy players that they can't conceive of someone actually fighting AND commanding at the same time?  Man, go find some skillz, and leave me the F alone. 

Yes, it can be done. 
Yes, it can be done effectively.
No, it isn't a waste of a vehicle.  (definitely not in AF)

"OMG, OMG, he's in a VEHICLE!  KICK him!  KICK him!  WAhhhhhhh!!!"

I'd like to see (for a change) some server admins kick some worthless POS commanders who sit in a bunker back at the uncap and do nothing to help their team on the battlefield.  Lazy SOBs.  Lame, pure and simple.

</RANT>

If you're a reasonable server admin who does NOT kick players who have the skill to command AND drive, shoot me a msg.  I'd like to play on YOUR server.
having commanded fairly extensively, I mostly disagree.  The only time a commander can engage in combat is when there are relatively few people on a large map.  Otherwise, it's too difficult to monitor every enemy and also engage in firefights.

The best commander will be ready to hop in a Vodnik and rush to a flag that's about to be captured and engage an enemy or few there, but for the most part, sit back and let those who can devote 100% of their efforts on busting around corners shootin the enemy.
TF501|Slee
Member
+18|6758|Michigan

fierce wrote:

Everything has said why a commander shouldn't be sit in a vehicle, especially tank. If i get killed by a non-spotted enemy and see the commander messing around in a tank, i'll be the first who teamkills the commander, make the vehicle available for someone who can actually use it proper and help the team and force the commander to do his job!

If you see me in any kind of vehicle, it's just for defend for something e.g. someone trying to blow up commander assets or stealing empty armor, a quick ride to a flag etc. After the job is done the vehicle will given to someone who uses and deserves it (e.g. an engineer for armor).
So, it's OK for you command from a vehicle sometimes, but you'll TK if someone else does it?  Never said I'd sit in the vehicle and do nothing.  That would be just as silly as if I were not commanding and doing nothing in a vehilce.  If I'm in a vehicle, it's for a purpose - usually that of going from point A to point B.


PRiMACORD wrote:

You can command better driving a vehicle, killing things, avoiding death, capping flags then a commander whos dedicated to watching the battlefield?
Never said I could command BETTER - simply that I could do it effectively.   Obviously my complete and undivided attention would make me a better commander.  Once again, if my team is able to respond to commands and has decent situational awareness, as well as having enough team members period then I'm content to sit back and make their job easier.   This works well in a full 64-man server.  In a non-full server or a much smaller one.... not so well.  Heh, I can imagine some of the matches we've had if the commander took himself out of play.  8 on 8 is.... well, it's absolutely necessary everyone is doing SOMEthing.


Given this situation, can you say you'd rather not command from a vehicle?
- Your team is losing
- Your team numbers are low
- There is no commander, and your requests for SOMEONE to take command have fallen on deaf ears

Do you:
A.  Take command and sit back in a bunker somewhere?
B.  Take command and try to cap spawn points with your small team
C.  Don't take command and your team continue to lose  (but hey, you might get some good kills - never forget that)

I guess it comes down to a dedication to the team for me.  If you look up my stats you'll see some pretty crappy K : D but some decent teamwork.  That's they way I play.

Last edited by TF501|Slee (2006-06-16 07:32:10)

gazzie
Pulls out gun, Watch him run
+39|6909|England
I dont get why commanders play, if theres less than 16 players yes i will play just to keep the teams level instead of 7 v 8 to help my team. I have commanded a hell of a lot of time just recently and you cant do all that stuff at once. Your kills, revives etc do not contribute to your final score so why bother just sit on your ass and let your team dom the rest with your help in spotting the enemies out for them.
TF501|Rocker
Member
+6|6761
In Slee's defense I must say that some of the replys to this thread are way off the mark, but in their defense, perhaps a little background would be in order.

rant

Slee and I and a couple of others will often go to the lesser of the teams to try and at least have a challenging round, This means that we will usually be on the opposing team to the server Clan or admins. Unfortunately we get to meet quite a few asshats along the way.

As a general rule IMO the no commanding in vehicles is pure crap. The operative word here is GENERAL RULE.

If both teams have it 'together' then by all means, commanders should do nothing but command.

I agree wholeheartedly with this philosophy.

However,

When my squad needs re-supply and the response is 'There is no commander on your team' after 10 minutes then what to do?

Go back to the main spawn and lay down and die ? 

No, because that is what the Baseraping Assclown Pointwhores on the other team most certainly do want.

Personally, I don't like to command, but I will do it, FTW, especially if NO ONE ELSE WILL, and If I happen to be in an AA vehicle at the time then I'm not going to give it to the NME, just because the admins on the other team don't like it.

We are talking AA vehicles here, not Tanks.

IMO an AA vehicle is a defensive system, trying to go head to head with a Tank or AT Soldier is folly.
I would much rather see an AA vehicle in the commander's hands rather than with someone who will use it to try and cap flags in it  (pure suicide against an organized resistance)

BTW, I don't pretend to be the best player out there, but I do believe that applying a little RL military doctrine can go a long way to increase the fun in it.

/rant

flame on.
[FHF]MattyZ
What the Deuce?
+29|6849|Washington
I agree with the guys that say a commander doing his job well, is doing it from the back lines, and using all of his resources as commander which take up 90% to 95% of his time.

While playing Karkand, if all of a sudden our back flag at the cement factory is being capped, I blame the commander for not spotting him.  I go to VOIP and swear at the commander for not doing his job and say we will lose because of him.

As far as sitting in vehicles, the commander should only be sitting in a dropped vehicle, and only if needed to get to a flag maybe since he might be the closest to it.
De_Jappe
Triarii
+432|6714|Belgium

If you have a good team it's better to stay back and devote all your time on commanding. Even when driving your scan comes half a minute later than it used to be, sometimes surprisingly notice enemy's at a critical place. (example airfield at wake)

Commander in transport vehicle is oke for me. In tank only on rare occasions cause when you sit in it, a team member can't use it. Never in plane or attack chopper. I once had the commander as gunner, I was lining him up  to kill 5 infantry but he was commanding. All he did was being annoying and not shooting so I had to try and sweep these guys with my missiles (had 3 of the 5 *G*)

Sometimes it's oke to help as commander, especially when there are not many players, but then you don't have to forget you are commander.

Sometimes your team is SO noobish, they just run from the usmc spawnpoint to hotel to get killed and loop over again. On those times, when resigning seems a better option actually, I take a transport and go cap suburb or something like that.

Conclusion: At certain moments, a commander can use vehicles but please stick to transports and please command. Nothing is more annoying than a commander who doesn't even place a UAV. Try to stay hidden and command, for example: be sniper, place 2 claymores at the flag and hide where you can shoot enemy's at that flag. Command till you notice an enemy at your flag and no team mates around. Snipe him and continue commanding.

Last edited by De_Jappe (2006-06-16 07:49:07)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7024
If its a 16 player map, thats different, Otherwise its a waste of assets.

Check my " Can you command effectivly and fly a jet or Gunship  " post.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-06-16 08:01:20)

(WC)KtheC
Member
+9|6898
I usually command from a transport.  This allows me to be somewhat mobile less likely to be hit by artillery.
I do admit that the moment or two that it takes me to get repositioned each time does take away from commanding effectiveness, but it is necessary for staying alive.  An alive commander is more effective then a dead one. Being is a transport also gets me that transport time towards the expert badge.
As for taking flags, if one is close and no one is I will try to engage the adversary and save it, only if a tank is nearby.  Otherwise, I send in a squad in possible.
fierce
I love [fiSh]
+167|6755

TF501|Slee wrote:

So, it's OK for you command from a vehicle sometimes, but you'll TK if someone else does it?  Never said I'd sit in the vehicle and do nothing.  That would be just as silly as if I were not commanding and doing nothing in a vehilce.  If I'm in a vehicle, it's for a purpose - usually that of going from point A to point B.
And now read my statement again, i don't know how long you take to kill someone, but i don't need minutes for this if anything seconds...
TF501|Slee
Member
+18|6758|Michigan

fierce wrote:

TF501|Slee wrote:

So, it's OK for you command from a vehicle sometimes, but you'll TK if someone else does it?  Never said I'd sit in the vehicle and do nothing.  That would be just as silly as if I were not commanding and doing nothing in a vehilce.  If I'm in a vehicle, it's for a purpose - usually that of going from point A to point B.
And now read my statement again, i don't know how long you take to kill someone, but i don't need minutes for this if anything seconds...
I read your statement again.  By definition of what you said you should be banned from a server for commanding from a vehicle.  (you were in a vehicle while a commander - I know, circular definition, but....)

My point is servers that have such rules can only enforce them in a hit or miss fashion.  I'm sure if they could they'd auto-kick you as soon got in that vehicle.  They'd much rather you sit in a bunker and do nothing but look at the command map. (as evidenced by many opinions expressed here too)  I see now why on that particular server no one had jumped to command for such a long time.  It was obvious if you did you'd be doing nothing but that.  It would be nice if there were larger maps and more players where acting as a full-time commander really paid off in terms of goals achieved and troops moved, etc. 

Regarding commanding from a jet or chopper - I couldn't agree more with everyone.  While FAVs, jeeps and sometimes tanks (depends on the map and the # of spawns capped) are a dime a dozen, taking a valuable/scarce chopper is robbing your team of a valuable resource.  It's also a heck of lot more difficult to pilot an air vehicle with a joystick and toggle back to commander screen.  Maybe others who fly a heck of a lot better than me can do it, but I never could. 


Thanks to everyone who chimed in with something constructive to say.  I know this started out as me venting (and it felt good to do it) but I certainly learned a lot in the process.  The anonymous negative karma was especially entertaining!
DirtyMexican
I knife Generals
+278|6724|Search Whore killing fields
i like commanding USMC on the carriers. I just go to radar tower

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