KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
First off, atheists/secularists do not promote
homosexuality. Most just come to the rational conclusion that
homosexuality is a human condition, not a choice. When did you
decide to become heterosexual? Second, why do you say
atheists/secularists have no morality? I consider myself more moral
than many of the prominent Christians out there. Third, many other
factors beside religion unite people.
Actually, most probably do promote homosexuality if given a choice
between yes or no. However, I'm sure if they were given the choice
of "I do not care" they would choose it. How in the world is
homosexuality a human condition? Men were not created to be with
men, Vice versa. I never decided to be heterosexual, I was born that
way, and humans are supposed to be born that way, or else they would
not be able to reproduce. It's good that you consider yourself
moral, but those are your standards of morality. In religion,
morality is actually enforced. Ofcourse, there will be a whole lot
of people who wouldn't follow by the standards set by the religion
because of their human nature to take advantage. Also, I am not
focusing on other factors in this discussion. Just religion and athiesm.
Nicholas Langdon wrote:
wow.... were you on some bad acid when you
came up with this? or and someone just hit you really hard in the
head... with a sledge hammer?
I'm not sure, really. It must've been that pH1 I measured in breakfast this morning..
Tyferra wrote:
Couldn't agree more Ken.
Whos morals are we talking about by the way? Yours? Mine? Societies?
Morals have nothing to do with religeon. Morals are taught in the
Bible and the Koran etc. but religeon is not responsible for them.
Do you think that because I'm an athiest I think that murder is
right or moral? No, it's fucking immoral and I didn't need a Bible
to tell me that!
I think it is immoral when someone can't accept who someone else is.
I have homosexual friends and they are great people. I don't think
they are immoral and I don't think they chose the way the are just
like I think you can't choose your own eye colour.
Your description of an Athiest world with no unity - that's not
Athieism, that is Anarchism. Completely different. Honestly do you
really think people are only united because of religeous beliefs? Do
you have friends who arn't the same religeon as you? If so, that
completely discredits you theory doesn't it? If not I think you
should get out a bit more.
Interesting opinion though, I always enjoy a good debate.
We are talking about general morals of people around the world.
Example, abstinence from alcohol and drugs, not going out and having
sex with everyone on the street, not cursing other people for
mistakes, etc. I'm not saying that athiests don't have morals, but
religion enforces the already present values.
Religious beliefs do pull people together, and yes, there are other
factors, but I'm not discussing about them. Do not get me wrong,
it's true. I do not want to step into politics, as anarchism is
again, not one of the factors I'm talking about. I am only
discussing about religion and athiesm.
I personally don't have much hatred towards the personality of
homosexual people, just what they do. It's not how the human race is
supposed to thrive. I do know people who are homosexual, and they
seem to be nice. I'm not some radical picket fence holding, torch
wielding extremist.
UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
aipotwckma wrote:
I am only stating that if
everyone in the world were athiest, the human race would be
peaceful, yet incredibly immoral.
I doubt humanity is capable of being peaceful, and you forget that
the real reason behind most wars is money... religion just gives the
excuse. And certain standards of morality are governed by rule of
law where I live in the UK, so why would that be any different if
there weren't any god-botherers? And aren't an abnormally high
percentage of vicars
gay child molesters?
And guess where the basis of all these secular yet moral laws came
from? People who mostly believe in god. About that link, please do
not tell me that there aren't any athiests AT ALL that do not do
disgusting things such as that.
UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
aipotwckma wrote:
if everyone were athiest, there would be no
religious beliefs of any kind, therefore creating a very small sense
of unity[if not, none at all]
I would strongly disagree with that statement. Maybe you mean
nihilists who believe in nothing, including strong comm
unity and equal opport
unity which is a uniting factor amongst many
athiests.
Strong community? Is there somesort of athiest church or mosque that
I do not know of?
[THE] comben wrote:
unless im much mistaken, religion has caused
more death and suffering through out recorded history than any other
factor....
i am an athiest, im too bitter and disgusted with teh world to
beleive that theres a 'higher being' who actually made this shit up
lol. what a waste of time that would have been lol.
anyhoo despite not being into religion (whilst respecting the
principles of peeps who do beleive and the fact that pretty much all
religions teach u to show compasion and respect) i prolly got more
respect for my fellow man than someone who bothers to write this...
'I am only stating that if everyone in the world were athiest, the
human race would be peaceful, yet incredibly immoral'
... on a forum for a war game!
also if there was no religion the world would prolly be exactly the
same as it is. we'd just substitute a word for religion and kill
each other some more.
I never said religion did not cause conflicts amongst people of the
world. A pious, untainted religious person would probably show more
compassion and respect than any athiest who holds their ground on
their belief. Look at the great Communist Manifesto, the one that
promotes athiesm. Did this great experiment of secularism show any good?
Marconius wrote:
Alright... *cracks knuckles*
1. Atheism promotes NOTHING. It in itself is a philosophic belief
that there is no higher power/god. That is it. There is no dogma,
there are no rituals, etc. Believing that it is promoting something
other than this to support your case is futile. Atheism does not
tell people how to live their lives, therefore does not promote
homosexuality, degrade human unity, or anything that you personally
feel is perverse.
It's not my personal opinion that I think it's inhuman. It is
inhuman. As I said earlier, what is the goal of the human race?
Probably to thrive and be higher than the rest of the animals on
this planet. Homosexuality is a condition that only hinders the
progress of humanity.
Marconius wrote:
2. As was said before, Atheism does Not equal Anarchism. Lack of
morality leads to Anarchism; believing that there is no higher power
doesn't constrain you from recognizing what is generally regarded as
Right and Wrong. You don't need your Rights and Wrongs dictated to
you, you just learn through social experiment and adaptation. It's
called Reason.
This is something that I can partially agree on. However, "believing
that there is a higher power" would enforce the common ideas that
are regarded as "Right" and "Wrong".
Marconius wrote:
3. Human unity falls under several categories and cannot be lumped
up into religion alone.
I agree, but once again, I am talking only in terms of religion and
athiesm.
Marconius wrote:
A lack of religion would allow humans to unify under the very idea
that they are indeed Human. Western Religion seems to inspire more
division than unity, with constant violence being carried out in any
of "god's" many names. Or just look at how sectarian they have all
become as more and more followers branch off with their own forms of
Reason mixed with their teachings. Christianity alone as over 700
separate sects, each believing in something different. Religion is
almost turning into a xeno-divide; lack of it would allow humans to
unify much easier, without fear of being persecuted or sparking
millenia of wars and hatred due to group differences in
philosophical opinion.
It is possible to be Good without god, you just need to back away
from the religions that slander that form of thinking in order to
keep people under their control. Freethought will unite people,
reason will be the oil in the gears of society.
And how does athiesm inspire the idea that all people are human? It
is as if Karl Marx regards humans as simple machines. We are not.
Violence in athiesm would be carried out on just the fact of human
nature, such as greed or taking advantage of other peoples
weaknesses. How many of those 700 sects actually have an amount of
followers that would be considered a good portion? In athiesm, you
have 6 billion different beliefs, in religion, you have the same
amount yet simplified.
rdx-fx wrote:
Atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about
8-16%) are disproportionately less numerous in the prison population
(0.21%)
And this fact is supposed to convey what? They are probably in
prison because they did something
wrong by law.
rdx-fx wrote:
[i]
Japan (the most atheistic nation in the G-8) has the lowest murder
rate while the United States (the most Christian nation in the G-8)
has the highest. Japan used to have much stronger religious faith,
and a state religion, and guess what: Japan was remarkably
aggressive and militaristic when "Shinto" was at its peak, and
during WW2, when its Emperor was regarded as a God.
That is not directly the fault of religion. In Japan, people have
far less of an access to weapons of violence than the United States
for one example. During World War II, the religious beliefs were
taken advantage of considerably in favor of the government. Similiar
to how radical Islamic clerics are perverting the Koran for their
unreasonable beliefs in the current era.
rdx-fx wrote:
Louisiana, with America's highest church attendance rate, has twice
the national average murder rate.
Once again, this is not the direct influence of religion.
rdx-fx wrote:
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/134674.htm
religion does not have an exclusive on morality.
Atheists get their morality from personal reflection, conscience,
and thought.
People can change what is right and wrong by just thinking? I do not
think so.
rdx-fx wrote:
A poor understanding of religion too often leads weak minds into
acts of extremism, under the delusion that 'this is what god
commands'.. look at the islamic extremists, kidnapping and beheading
journalists.
Agreeable.
TrollmeaT wrote:
Catholicism & Christianity are 2 different
religions, inhuman beliefs = homosexuality, I don't think so I know
2 girls that are & they are the most human people I have ever met.
As I said earlier, I never said that homosexuals were bad people in
terms of their personality.
TrollmeaT wrote:
Morality is like religion, it is defined by the person using it.
I'm a proud pagan & very peaceful & moral {according to me} , the
most aggressive I get is when I play bf2 and slam the keyboard when
I die or let out a huge "fuck!"
...ok...
TrollmeaT wrote:
I would do your homework a little more before starting a discussion
like this because you're obviously biased on some points & have no
freaking idea what you are talking about to begin with.
There are plenty of these all across these boards, sadly almost
everyone who posts here is athiest, so I have no one to back my
views up.
ComradeWho wrote:
i think what you fail to realize is that most atheists have rejected
religion specifically because the morality is simplistic, archaic,
and basically for stupid people who don't want to think too much
about right and wrong and need to make up some external authority
for the world to make sense. atheists usually have complicated and
well thought out moral codes that are far superior than anything
found in a "magic book" that contains the laws of some "magical
superhero."
The fact is that they can change their moral code at anytime they
wish, even if they are unlikely to do so. Having a more "set" moral
code is far more greater than making foolish manipulations to a so
called "general" moral code.
ComradeWho wrote:
the best philosophers are atheists.. you know.. the ones that helped
to establish the morality that is essential to the development of
the abrahamic religons. what is christianity withour aristotle? i
bet you don't know!
I see a personal opinion.
ComradeWho wrote:
on a side note homosexuality is conducted by humans, it is therefor
a human act, and is therefor humane by definition. just like
genocide. i really don't think it's inhumane to leave people alone
who want to have sex with each other - sex is a good thing -
christian's have created a lot of problems for the world by coming
up with irrational sex rules. that's why it's so funny that you
brought up the catholics.
I am not going to waste my time on this one.
Spark wrote:
I think the original poster has been successfully
pwned over their complete and utter ignorance.
Ok?
Pubic wrote:
Athiests have morals, we just don't need a book, priest or mullah to
tell us what they are. Mine are based largely in practicality, and
what I would be willing to tolerate upon myself and those I care
about, they're actually quite a lot like the "ten commandments"; I
believe murder is wrong, going after someone elses SO is a no-no
etc...
That said, I don't believe theres anything wrong with homosexuality.
I'm heterosexual, but if my neighbour chooses to fuck another guy
up the arse, or if my other neighbour falls in love with an other
woman, whys it any of my business? Its their right to choose what
they do and with whom they do it, and any attempt to deny them that
right is an attempt to deny them their freedom.
Freedom is an excuse to commit acts that "used to be" deemed immoral. And infact, you do have a reason. If you do consider that homosexuality slows down the continuation of humanity, then it is a humans responsibility to stop it.
Pubic wrote:
Consider this: Lets assume for a minute that the christian god
does exist. He gave us all free will right? Hes supposed to be
the very embodiment of all that is good, right? If thats the case,
then isn't god's gift of free will a good thing? And wouldn't any
action that erodes itl be going against god's will? Dare I say it,
but outlawing the right to choose a same-sex partner, or the right
to choose who you worship (or don't), wouldn't that be anti-
christian?
I am no expert in Christianity, as I am no Christian. I am Muslim, and I am sure I will get many negative comments just because of my belief, especially in this forum.
Kimosabe-sa wrote:
I wonder if the original poster even knows any
one gay?
I do, and he is a nice person. However, I still think as stated above.
