unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,114|7602|PNW

uziq wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

the planet could do that and more. not infinitely, obviously, but every living person on earth could be fed and comfortably housed if that's what power wanted.
quite a different proposition to “middle class lifestyle”, giving people basic shelter and a food supply. it’s people wanting access to 2 family cars parked outside a perfectly air conditioned home that is full of plastic consumables that is a steeper proposition.

and the idea we could house everyone sounds a lot like communism to me. a much harder sell than “we need to fix the retirement system so that it doesn’t depend on pension contributions from nonexistent gen alpha workers”.
fair, but transportation can be managed without a bunch of cars to a home if city planning wanted, and there are more efficient, even passive cooling solutions that were quietly forgotten about in favor of abusing air conditioning. these and shelter and food and all of the basic needs, peripheral life goals, and little discretionary luxuries could be met (easily) without waste, IF a country wanted to, and that state would be the entry to a new standard of middle class for many.

but people want to hoard wealth, and people without wealth protect wealth hoarders on the off-hand chance they too can accumulate wealth, and you're a communist if you disagree with them.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+690|4550
A lot of good discussion regarding the material conditions. But what about the psychological and spiritual needs of society? People aren't happy. We have to get people to participate in community again. Go to a festival. Join a church. Etc.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,114|7602|PNW

or don't join a church. it's 2026 and there are other things to do to mix with people. sunning your asshole in company would be a better use of time than a hellfire sermon.

the psychological and spiritual needs are impacted by material needs. "sorry i'd like to go to the thing but there's a shift for my third part-time job coming up, and if i miss it i'm going to be fired and won't be able to make rent" contributes to unhappiness, no?
uziq
Member
+573|4282

SuperJail Warden wrote:

A lot of good discussion regarding the material conditions. But what about the psychological and spiritual needs of society? People aren't happy. We have to get people to participate in community again. Go to a festival. Join a church. Etc.
there's about 27 prosocial things you can do before you join a church. not saying there's anything wrong with that, but the fixes don't have to be so reactionary. like communism, another faith-based hard sell.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+690|4550
"27 pro-social things no one actually does. #2 will shock you!"

I was in a meeting an hour ago and the conversation came up about how one church was successfully organizing their community while a different community's decline in church attendance sapped them of political power since the church was their primary vehicle for recruiting.

Liberals withdrawing from religious life left that entire field to conservatives. Liberals gained what in return? Where did they form community? We haven't.

If you don't go to church then maybe you should in all seriousness become a communist. It has a program and worldview. A goal people could rally around. Communism fundamentally believes in spending time together instead of dropping endless hours into Xbox and drugs.

...

I work in public service and organize communities.
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-i-decided-to-become-a-community-organizer-change-won-t-come-from-the-top-i-would-say-barack-obama-130-3-0336.jpg
Even in public service we have built up social and legal practices that discourage being active in your community. Tax the billionaires into millionaires. All for it. But we also need to examine how we build community going forward and I am not convinced secular liberalism is the best way of doing this.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+573|4282
as an american you live in a society that is more atomised and individualistic than almost any other. that’s not the norm. france is a secular liberal society and has a huge ‘public’ sphere. the UK is a liberal democracy but has much older forms of kinship and association than friendless suburbia, and so on. there’s a continuum and you’re yapping from the extreme end of it.

besides, ‘horizontalist’ discourse has been the norm in any left of centre politics for decades now. people know you can’t simply tax those at the top and fix everything. devolution and community/cooperatives have been the topics of debate for quite a while. even stuff like Occupy was in this spirit.

Last edited by uziq (2026-08-04 19:23:06)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,114|7602|PNW

There are probably more valid reasons to escape religion than enter it. Why would you want to be a part of a charity effort that might require recipients to participate in bible study, sometimes conversion therapy!! Conditional charities like that, and religious organizations that expect their membership to cough up money only to hoard resources once they have them, sicken me.

Plenty of other ways to volunteer to do stuff without also sitting your ass on a wooden bench for three hours every Sunday listening to some asshole tell you who to hate and who to vote for. Scroll down charity watchlists and pick something that interests you to volunteer time for i guess.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,854|6936|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

why are those your options? population growth is already slumping in some countries. isn't middle class mostly defined by spending power? a family that can afford all basic needs, and extras like vacations, on a single income used to be considered just entry level on the middle class! the middle class has been wiped the fuck out in the race for a trillionaire class. i'd ask how we went from tvs being a luxury to homes being a luxury, but we both know the answer at this point.

remember covid when lower emissions had stunning and almost immediate effects on city skylines? better drive to end fossil fuels and business/industrial resource/energy waste and pollution and pollution output would have dramatic. putting the plastic bottle in the right bin is nice, but isn't doing it. a flywheel analogy is probably more accurate than a pendulum swinging back, and full recovery for a lot of stuff will take decades more, centuries, millennia even in some cases, but how is the default option to just not do anything? i encounter that sentiment depressingly often. someone finally admits that shit is shit, but they're like "ah well, may as well not do anything," because who the fuck knows, or they still want ten cents cheaper gas. a perpetually tepid, selective environmentalist is almost worse. y'all need to get on antidepressants.
If we ended all man-made CO2 emissions right now and go back to being hunter-gatherers -> we're probably facing unsurvivable climatic conditions.

Middle class lifestyle for the top 10% of 8.3 billion people, and a top 1% lifestyle for the top 1% -> There's no recovering from this.

I'm not saying do nothing. Radical planet-scale action could do it but its not going to happen - unless I'm given absolute power and everyone else tempers their expectations.
Everything is great
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,114|7602|PNW

i think i used more nuance than "end all man-made co2 emissions right now."

not using the planet and its people for value extraction at all costs would help. a lot.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,854|6936|eXtreme to the maX
A mild tapering in population growth won't make a dent, this needed to happen > 100 years ago.
Everything is great
uziq
Member
+573|4282
it's a cruel twist the the countries that will bear the brunt of climate change are also the ones having population booms. perfect recipe for disasters and second-order effects (like mass migration of peoples to more temperate, richer nations). in that regard, the rich industrialised west is set to suffer a 'return of the repressed' (as freud had it) of all the wasteful and heinous shit they did through the 19th and 20th centuries.

in general 10 billion just seems way too much. i'd rather live in tightly controlled fourierist phalanxes than deal with societies of 3 billion people. that is just ungovernable.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+690|4550
I asked ChatGPT what would western Europe's and U.S. population regress to if you removed all of the immigrants, nonwhites, and Muslims. Both groups decline to early 1960's population numbers. The remaining people would be much older and incapable of producing families even under ideal conditions. Our countries would be in Japanese style death spirals if it wasn't for immigration though what is even 'our country' if the only growth is coming from immigrants and their children.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,758|7567|Cinncinatti
I understand conservatives hate black people but why are you removing them
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
uziq
Member
+573|4282

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I asked ChatGPT what would western Europe's and U.S. population regress to if you removed all of the immigrants, nonwhites, and Muslims. Both groups decline to early 1960's population numbers. The remaining people would be much older and incapable of producing families even under ideal conditions. Our countries would be in Japanese style death spirals if it wasn't for immigration though what is even 'our country' if the only growth is coming from immigrants and their children.
japan has 120 million people, it's one of the most populous countries on earth and has a top 10 economy.

the birth rate is far worse in korea and hong kong, and worse in taiwan and china, but the 'population collapse' narrative has stuck with japan for about 20 years now, somehow. japan is literally the most fertile country in all of east asia.

while it's for sure in 'population decline' territory, it's the same as that of thailand, italy, spain and poland. nobody looks at feisty latins in naples and concludes they're sexless and morbid and caught in a death spiral. genuinely quite odd. the UK and other western european nations are fractionally better but also firmly in sub-replacement levels.

also a strange example to use considering they are absolutely not going the route of promoting mass immigration but maintaining their economy all the same. the current immigration system is being aggressively retooled towards a dubai-singapore model in which in-demand labour is allowed to come over temporarily, be useful, and then get sent packing back home or to the farm upstate. it's almost impressively cynical. as of next april, it will practically be impossible for any migrant worker to settle in japan permanently and put down roots. and forget entirely about citizenship/naturalisation.

Last edited by uziq (2026-08-05 10:38:09)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+690|4550

RTHKI wrote:

I understand conservatives hate black people but why are you removing them
Because when you talk about 'higher quality of life' if the world population goes down it doesn't mean society goes back to our childhood in the 90's.

It will be a fundamentally different society. I am cool with that but people should just understand what they are encouraging.
https://www.nyc.gov/adobe/dynamicmedia/deliver/dm-aid--db0df5d1-59c4-4ac8-a665-1f366b1b7ad5/mayor-mamdani-unveils-30--discount---including-all-produce--all--1-jpg.webp?preferwebp=true

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2026-08-05 10:36:57)

https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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