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uziq
Member
+466|2784
this isn't about 'belief'.

it's about science. as in, published results in the top-reputed scientific journals in the world.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Our findings indicate that surgical masks can efficaciously reduce the emission of influenza virus particles into the environment in respiratory droplets, but not in aerosols12. Both the previous and current study used a bioaerosol collecting device, the Gesundheit-II (G-II)12,15,19, to capture exhaled breath particles and differentiated them into two size fractions, where exhaled breath coarse particles >5 μm (respiratory droplets) were collected by impaction with a 5-μm slit inertial Teflon impactor and the remaining fine particles ≤5 μm (aerosols) were collected by condensation in buffer. We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission.

Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols, whereas for rhinovirus we detected virus in aerosols in 19 of 34 (56%) participants (compared to 4 of 10 (40%) for coronavirus and 8 of 23 (35%) for influenza). For those who did shed virus in respiratory droplets and aerosols, viral load in both tended to be low (Fig. 1). Given the high collection efficiency of the G-II (ref. 19) and given that each exhaled breath collection was conducted for 30 min, this might imply that prolonged close contact would be required for transmission to occur, even if transmission was primarily via aerosols, as has been described for rhinovirus colds20. Our results also indicate that there could be considerable heterogeneity in contagiousness of individuals with coronavirus and influenza virus infections.
I will say that it's nice to see you come around to the position I was in nearly two years ago. Protect the old and the sick and move on with our lives.
ehm, cute, but also very very dumb. 2 years have passed. you were advocating for 'let her rip' in a pre-vaccine era, without any hospital treatments, any antiviral medicine, and with a much more dangerous epidemiological situation (novel pathogen, totally unexposed populations, exponential spread and linear correlated exponential death).

we decoupled serious illness and death in the general population when we invented highly effective vaccines. from that point on, yes, it was only the elderly and especially immunocompromised who were still at particular risk. VERY different to your proposal.

nice to know you're still thick as plank and wrap yourself in the raiments of sage wisdom.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-15 12:32:45)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+567|3052
I would sacrifice one of you right now for Jay to answer all of my questions.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6104|USA

Jay wrote:

I will say that it's nice to see you come around to the position I was in nearly two years ago. Protect the old and the sick and move on with our lives.
Would you say…protect the old and the sick so that you can spend one more Christmas with your parents?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6104|USA

re, jay:

January 6th was a bunch of idiots acting the fool but it has been blown entirely out of proportion[ for political purposes.
Why Fox News Congressional Reporter Chad Pergram Will Never Call Capitol Rioters ‘Protesters’
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/why … 30051.html

Chad Pergram, the Fox News congressional correspondent who had to barricade himself in a small studio at the Capitol during the riot last January, still feels “frustration and anger” when he thinks of the events of that day, which he said were “just as serious as 9/11.”

“I work in the U.S. Capitol. It is my place of work,” he told TheWrap. “I’ve worked here for years and it’s one thing to have something bad happen at any place of work. It’s something else to have something happen in the U.S. Capitol — a place that you’ve spent so much of your life and devoted so much of your life to — and see it desecrated in that way. That does make me angry and it still stings sometimes.”

He reflected on how “seeing the rioters and the mob coming through the building” is “part of the story” of the Capitol now, in the same way the statues of former presidents within its walls are.

In the year since the Capitol riot, Pergram said he has doubled down on providing context in his reporting — even as on-air personalities at his network such as Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham have misstated facts about the riot or downplayed the severity of the event.

Last month, longtime Fox News anchor Chris Wallace exited for a new job at CNN after raising objections to Carlson’s Fox Nation special “Patriot Purge,” which made false and unsubstantiated claims about the Capitol riot; longtime Fox News contributors Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes also left the network to protest “Patriot Purge,” citing concern that the program will “lead to violence.”

Pergram’s dedication to reporting on the Capitol riot extends to his choice of language, too. “I remember very early on in the reporting, I caught myself. I started to call them ‘protesters’ — this was on Jan. 6 — and I’m like, ‘No, these aren’t protesters. Protesters are people who show up and stand outside and have a right to do so and have a sign or whatever,'” he said.

“These weren’t protesters and so it has made me more attuned to the specificity of language, making sure that you use the right words to describe something, even if sometimes it offends people or that’s not the story they want to hear,” he said. “I mean, I think I was always dedicated to that and always did a pretty good job of that, but that has made me more aware of that and how important it is to get that right word.”

And Pergram said it’s important for journalists to emphasize that what happened last Jan. 6 “was not just a riot,” given the mob’s attempt to disrupt the democratic process. “To have a riot any day would be bad enough at the Capitol, but to have arrived on the day that you meet to certify the Electoral College in a joint session of Congress, which is the pinnacle of the transfer of the peaceful transfer of power, that needed to be emphasized more,” he said. “This was just not a riot. This was not as deadly as 9/11 or something of that nature, but it was just as serious as 9/11 because of the political consequences which will echo for decades. And that’s something that needs to be, I think, emphasized in the reporting.”

Over the past year, Pergram acknowledged that he’s spoken a number of people — he didn’t identify any by name — who have “tried to diminish this, who have tried to mollycoddle this.”

As a firsthand witness to the violence, he said he has the credibility to make clear how serious Jan. 6, 2021 really was. “Some of them get it,” he said, but some of them don’t.


“That’s why it’s important to have people on the ground reporting,” he said. “:I come back to context here. And if that’s the case, I think that would have some resonance with folks. The idea that you were taught the Capitol is a citadel of democracy around the world. And what’s the message that people say? They always thought the security risk up here was from terrorists, from overseas or airplanes or something, or a bomb. The weapons that day were human beings and thoughts and that’s perhaps the scariest thing of all.”
Is Jay mollycoddling the insurrection?
uziq
Member
+466|2784
there is literally no way my approach to covid has ever resembled jay’s.

the fact he’s using his ‘expertise’ as HVAC engineer to dispute medical opinion should tell you all that you need to know about that galumphing blue-collar low-grade intelligence. i’m sure all those researchers with a decade of medical school and decades in research labs have missed the piece of the puzzle. check the aircon filters morons! masKs dnT woRk!!!

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-16 02:44:08)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6104|USA

I think people like Jay are holding out for some grand reveal about global science deception to finally vindicate years of various stages of conspiracy adherence. It's been talked about with the Q-crowd as well, as a force of division between the cultists and everyone else. Someday we'll all learn!

Deseret of all (right-wing) news sources I think puts it simply:

In my work covering COVID-19, I’ve interviewed hundreds of doctors, infectious disease experts and epidemiologists from institutions like the CDC, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Johns Hopkins and the FDA’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research.

The subject of masks has arisen time and again, and while multiple doctors have acknowledged the missteps and bungled messaging regarding face masks, particularly during the early stages of the pandemic, those I’ve interviewed agree that masks remain a vital layer of protection in the fight against COVID-19. 

Of course, some guidance regarding preventative measures has changed over time as studies have given added insight into what works and what doesn’t. But some preventive measures have remained surprisingly consistent. Washing hands, steering clear of sick people, and eating healthy and exercising are all effective ways to stave off some illnesses and represent preventive health measures that predate the pandemic.  Similarly, surgical face masks have been used in hospitals for decades and by the public at large, long before COVID-19. It’s only in the age of social media misinformation and political polarization that masks have become so controversial. But setting politics aside, data on masks remains compelling with the preponderance of evidence supporting their efficacy in reducing transmission of airborne viruses like COVID-19.
While face masks aren’t airtight (thank heavens!) and therefore cannot keep out every respiratory droplet that may contain disease and bacteria, they are effective at containing a high number of them. 

Various studies report different degrees of protection depending on how they were conducted and how data was collected, but a recent meta-analysis of multiple global studies found that masks are linked to a commanding 53% decrease in COVID-19 transmission when worn properly. An Arizona epidemiologist recently told me how N95 masks or surgical masks have proven to be especially effective. “Several studies have found that surgical masks are between 66% and 70% effective,” she said. 
People want to get on with their lives as normally as possible yet continue to be contentious about low-effort countermeasures that will help us do that. Boggles.

Next up, a veteran with rudimentary NBC training telling us how facemasks don't stop an anthrax bomb. nss, good to know if you're ever hit by an anthrax bomb while picking out a cabbage in the produce aisle.

If only doctors had learned that bit of information. Why aren't colleges teaching it!
uziq
Member
+466|2784
jay should let these guys know that he's figured it out.

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/chemistry/research/barc/

i'm sure he's been checking journals and pre-press servers on this topic. because, after all, this isn't about 'belief'.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 … 1.full.pdf

science:
The aerosol microenvironment is highly dynamic exposing pathogens, such as the SARS-CoV-2 virus when exhaled in respiratory aerosol, to extreme conditions of solute concentration, pH and evaporative cooling. Yet surviving this environment is a key step in the transmission of such pathogens. Understanding the impact that airborne transport has on pathogens and the influence of environmental conditions on pathogen survival can inform the implementation of strategies to mitigate the spread of diseases such as COVID-19. We report changes in the infectivity of the airborne virus over timescales spanning from 5 s to 20 minutes and demonstrate the role of two microphysical processes in this infectivity loss: particle crystallisation and aerosol droplet pH change.
jay:
i install aircons for a living. now if i have to put an expensive filter on an aircon unit, how does an inexpensive mask help my face?

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-16 02:35:19)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
Even I know that the sort of droplets blown out in the cough zone are a bit different to the kind sucked into HVAC, although the second kind can and do transmit Covid.

In your average environment with people close by a facemask is useful to ward off the massive viral load of large droplets, and stop you emitting large droplets.
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uziq
Member
+466|2784
you'd think the guy who has now had covid 3 times would start examining his patterns and think about reasonable precautions.

fathomless stupidity.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6104|USA

I still think it's funny how he comes back with "keep old people safe" like a year and a half after the unbelievably mean-spirited one more Christmas with parents quip. Yet we've supposedly come around to his old way of thinking? Which for himself has now changed to "keep old people safe?"

Yet still,

An overlooked consequence of COVID-19: The hundreds of thousands of orphans left behind
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/01 … 19-orphans

More than 167,000 kids in the U.S. have lost at least one parent or primary caregiver to COVID-19.

Dr. Charles Nelson coined the term COVID orphans to describe children who have lost one or both parents, or primary caregivers, to the disease. One in four adult deaths to COVID-19 leaves a child orphaned or left without a caregiver — something the Harvard University professor of pediatrics and psychiatry describes as a hidden cost of the pandemic.

“Grief manifests itself differently in young children than it does in adults,” he says.

Grieving children experience anxiety and depression if they’re old enough, he says, but also secondary effects like acting out in the classroom or stress caused by food insecurity or loss of health insurance. This stress can have both a psychological and biological impact on kids.

etc etc
Yes, covid is aaaaaall about just "keeping old people safe." Such a waste for anyone else! Where does he get these ideas?

I wonder how many people Jay spread covid to in the three times he supposedly had it. At work, at parties. Did the kids he was so eager to get rid of spread his covid to their classmates and teachers as soon as he was able to offload them to public daycare?

Any more of Mac's questions Jay wants to address?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2022-01-16 04:11:49)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,980|6104|USA

Would Jay still mollycoddle the insurrection if he'd been working on the building AC when rioters busted in?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+466|2784

uziq wrote:

https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20220114000663&fbclid=IwAR16FNK0usc6-vGSW5_D9YKXV6Z421lQY5uTUEEUiSLmnPkqaWlmV9Wedck

When the inevitable omicron explosion descends on South Korea, the kind of restrictive approach to dealing with the virus will have run its course, top officials say.

In a news briefing Friday, the Health and Economy ministries said Korea will focus on keeping its businesses and other aspects of daily life as open as possible once the new variant starts dominating the scene.

The characteristics of omicron called for “a shift in a paradigm toward a more flexible response,” said Health Minister Kwon Deok-cheol.

“When omicron becomes dominant, cases are almost certain to rise significantly, in which case Korea will start pursuing a targeted protection of people at higher risk rather than control of the entire community, as it has been so far,” he said.

The threshold for transition to the omicron-specific strategy is 7,000 cases occurring per day, the minister said. For the past week, Korea has been counting an average of around 3,700 daily cases.

When that point comes, the country will ease up on many pillars of its pandemic control.

PCR testing, previously open to anyone wishing to get tested, will be offered primarily to older adults ages 65 and up, close contact of confirmed patients and people who have tested positive in rapid antigen tests. People with COVID-19-like symptoms will need a doctor’s recommendation to get tested.

For the rest, rapid antigen tests or the at-home kits will be the default testing method.

Contact tracing, conducted for close contacts of patients, will operate on an honor system basis. People who are younger than 60 and without existing health conditions can report their itineraries on a smartphone application.

Clinics will be set up to permit home recovery patients access to in-person care without having them take up bed spaces.

The isolation period for patients will be cut from the current 10 days to seven. Close contacts of patients will be tested on sixth day of quarantine to be released on seventh day depending on test results.

Travel bans on 11 countries -- Botswana, Eswatini, Ghana, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, South Africa, Zambia and Zimbabwe -- will end. The mandatory quarantine of 10 days for all arrivals may be adjusted, although the negative PCR testing requirement is likely to remain in place.

This contrasts with lockdown or similarly restrictive steps that other countries like Australia and the Netherlands have taken to counter omicron.

In a release to reporters on the same day the Health Ministry said, “When omicron drives cases up exponentially, the existing ways of responding to the virus may no longer be viable.”
well holy shit ... look at that. one of the world's leading nations for pandemic management has just devised a system that makes good fucking sense, considering omicron's infection profile.
here's a 'world-leading' example for you, dilbert.

just a thought.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
Hasn't actually worked anywhere else though has it?
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uziq
Member
+466|2784
travel bans didn't work anywhere at curbing omicron, brainiac.

zero covid hasn't worked in a single country to adopt it, genius.

what hasn't worked about keeping businesses and borders open for korea? they've been a success story during this pandemic. not a single lockdown. a bit better than melbourne's record, eh?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
Zero covid worked fine in Aus and NZ, most of the time, WA is still doing well because they haven't buckled.
Melbourne fucked everything up, not least because they had an idiot hipster running the show.
"Lets hire Indians off the street via whatsapp and give them critical roles with no training or equipment" What could go wrong?

"Let it rip" hasn't worked anywhere either though, thats Korea's plan, good luck.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-01-16 18:37:44)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+466|2784
korea isn’t letting it rip though? they’re switching to a targeted approach of shielding those who are most at risk. prioritising the covid services for them and encouraging everyone else, who are highly boostered and compliant with everyday mask wearing etc, to carry on with their lives.

sounds eminently wise to me.

really don’t know how many more times it has to be drilled into your thick skull about it being no coincidence that multiple ‘zero covid’ countries began to tumble after delta. and keep going on about ‘outpost at the end of the world’ perth, why don’t you. you resemble a feeble minded idiot who keeps wringing his hands and panicking that a situation is out of his control. ‘b b b b b bbbbut WA!’ a highly translatable case study to the world, that. if the remotest human population on earth are fine, why can’t the capital cities and megalopolises follow suit ?!?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

why can’t the capital cities and megalopolises follow suit ?!?
because you're all idiots?

The world has had umpteen warnings and trial runs, months of notice for Covid-19 and literally fuck all intelligent was done.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-01-17 00:35:17)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+466|2784
must be it. there can't possibly be any relevance of population or population density in virus transmission.

it's not at all as if we saw the virus rip though high-density areas (i.e. low-income housing projects) in places like NY whilst the rich, isolated neighbourhoods remained unscathed.

it's not like this pandemic has largely been a city vs. country phenomenon, played out in nations across the world, from spanish andalusia to seoul and the southern provinces.

nope.

"Western Australia is Australia's biggest territory. The vast majority (92 percent) live in the south-west corner; 79 percent of the population lives in the Perth area, leaving the remainder of the state sparsely populated".

can't believe these guys approve of being in covid-free isolation away from the rest of australia/the world! i bet it's so annoying not being able to drive across a state-line, 1200km, for a carton of milk and a quick hows-yer-aunt with the neighbours.

population density of perth: 330/km^2
population density of sydney: 445/km^2
population density of london: 5,700/km^2
population density of seoul: 16,000/km^2

aren't you meant to be an imperial-trained engineer? use your fucking head. i know you can. GROW THE FUCK UP.
uziq
Member
+466|2784
and literally fuck all intelligent was done.
how is this whining relevant? seoul, a city an order of magnitude more dense and high-risk than sydney/melbourne, has contained its outbreaks much better for 2.5 years. ZERO lockdowns. businesses OPEN. life NORMAL. now even they are recognizing that omicron is simply too infectious, spreads far too quickly, and cannot be test+traced effectively. furthermore, as they said themselves, 'according to the virus's profile', it doesn't even fucking matter. omicron is no threat at all to vaccinated people. thus a new strategy is called for.

how in the wrong can you be? ranting about 'dumb idiots', 'people doing nothing'. the koreans already coped with covid-19 far, far better than australia's major cities. they nailed it. now they're continuing with further prudent, science-guided policy. at this point you are literally out of your depth. ranting that major cities won't go into lockdown and enforce draconian sub-CCP measures to isolate a harmless sore throat.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
You forgot Mumbai - 25,357

My god, Haredi jews are worse than Indians - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … on_density

So we're back to the obvious solution - population reduction.
We can do it voluntarily or viruses will do it for us.
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uziq
Member
+466|2784
no, we're back to the obvious solution - intelligent epidemiology. population size/density is an extremely fundamental variable in any virus modelling scenario.

that you think the whole world should, or even could, follow the example of Perth, perched on the edge of a vast and empty continent, just shows what a trivial, whining idiot you are on this topic. you really reduce your credibility in every way when you keep pursuing this plainly facile view.

So we're back to the obvious solution - population reduction.
we've covered this many times, but the birthrate in south korea is much lower than australia. even your edgy-teenager social engineering pose is retarded.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-17 00:59:52)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,778|5438|eXtreme to the maX
Every country has borders, why don't they use them?

We back to this:

For the same proble,
Ask a GP to determine treatment and they'll prescribe antibiotics
Ask a surgeon and they'll say surgery
A psychiatrist psychotherapy
A physiotherapist physiotherapy
etc etc

A virologist and they'll say vaccines - maybe they aren't actually the best people to determine policy for a pandemic
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uziq
Member
+466|2784
virologists don’t determine policy though? they never have? it’s epidemiologists and public health officials who do that, as part of scientific advisory bodies working with governments. it’s not virologists working in astrazeneca labs or pfizer HQ who are in charge of devising policy.

why are you so fetishistic about borders? they’re legal entities; porous and susceptible to people and goods leaking across them; their openness to some degree is essential for societies to function, even on the level of basic raw fuels and materials. they’re not hermetic seals on jars or perfect forcefields. the world's borders are NOT the same as australia's borders, dilbert. similarly, i don't think they occupy the same fetishized, fevered centrality in so many people's imaginations as they do for, ahem, certain island populations.

i honestly can’t get my head around your stubbornness on this. ‘we have highly effective vaccines, why not use them?’ every sort of study available has firmly established that our BEST ‘front line’ weapon in this pandemic are vaccines. you have continuously tried to rubbish them and promote ‘closed borders’ instead, as if they’ll make a comparable difference. are you this fucking dumb?

perhaps you should add to your list:

'ask a ... fading has-been CAD engineer for the solution to a problem, and they'll promote antivaxx conspiracy theories and look to blame jews and indians'.

Last edited by uziq (2022-01-17 03:04:42)

uziq
Member
+466|2784
i love that we're in year 3 of a global pandemic, by the way, and we still have to cover first principles.

dilbert: 'most' australians thought that reaching 90% vaccination meant covid would be defeated and the post-covid era could begin'.
literally nobody has ever proposed this as an available solution to a globally pandemic, highly mutative respiratory pathogen.

you declared that we're 'now in endemic status' because the 'virus has been shown to hop to other animals'. whatever that means.
3 years in and you don't understand the difference between a pandemic and an endemic status disease.

now today you seem to need help in deciphering 'virology' and 'epidemiology'. very different disciplines and nobody has invited vaccine designers or lab-workers into political deliberations to inform national policy. virologists don't model the spread of disease or make social distancing recommendations. virologists don't know anything about social distancing.

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