uziq
Member
+496|3692

SuperJail Warden wrote:

We should all just give up.
i am nothing like so resigned. but here is what – provably – flattens the curve of highly infectious new variants:

  • social distancing measures, limiting group sizes, wearing masks, minimizing contact in the general population.
  • closure of offices, schools, limiting of public transport, and moving to WFH arrangements wherever possible.
  • increased precautions such as regular testing, the use of vaccine passports, contact tracing for venues.
  • vaccination and booster drives which dramatically slash the rates of hospitalization and death.
  • and, yes, though it isn't a good thing to hear, increased levels of herd-immunity as infection rates rise within the (largely vaccinated) population, too.


banning a particular class of visitor and saying only 'important' business people and traders can come and go will not do a single fucking thing about the rate of a variant's spread. it is literally farting into a brisk wind. the omicron variant already has a series of known-about mutations that have foiled our testing diagnostics in the past. hotel quarantines and 'essential' travel are more compromised and open to leaks than they have ever been. if you don't enact the above measures amongst the general population, that is, on the tens or hundreds of millions of people who can spead omicron freely between themselves, then focussing on a few thousand ingressing air passengers is sheer insanity.

of course, this winter we are not in a particularly strong situation. 30-40% of people are still as yet unvaccinated or are now badly in need of a booster shot. that's a large enough proportion of people to still nuke medical systems and hospital intakes with even mild-to-severe cases of disease. it is an approaching public health emergency. but this is nothing like a sudden twist in the history of the pandemic that will confound our efforts. take your fucking booster and avoid weddings, funerals, office parties and nightclubs for the winter season, people.

pfizer confirmed last week that their new antiviral pill is highly effective. within the next 12–18 months we will begin to see some next-generation vaccines which are better able to deal with new variants, or a wider range of known variants. yes, the short-term boosters are not ideal. they are a stop-gap. but they work. get your fucking booster and carry on.

zero major pandemics have been solved historically by lockdowns or border closures. it literally has never happened. massive global pandemics like the spanish flu burned themselves out when they evolved into more highly infectious but less deadly forms, effectively enabling widespread exposure and immunity. the first few waves tend to be the nastiest and most virulent, as we have seen in covid. but the levels of hospitalization, most telling in south africa, where people have been infected with several consecutive waves of covid, are very, very low. that's what happens when a virus becomes more transmissible and spreads amongst a population who have been exposed to other covid strains for 2 years already.

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-16 21:00:00)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3959

uziq wrote:

  • social distancing measures, limiting group sizes, wearing masks, minimizing contact in the general population.
  • closure of offices, schools, limiting of public transport, and moving to WFH arrangements wherever possible.
  • increased precautions such as regular testing, the use of vaccine passports, contact tracing for venues.
  • vaccination and booster drives which dramatically slash the rates of hospitalization and death.
  • and, yes, though it isn't a good thing to hear, increased levels of herd-immunity as infection rates rise within the (largely vaccinated) population, too.
Half of the country will do none of these. The other half will do half of these. Lockdowns and school closures are not going to happen even in blue states.

I don't know what is left at this point besides getting your shot, being personally careful, and thoughts and prayers.

We especially can't do another round of lockdowns in an election year *. And there won't be another round of stimulus with all of this talk about inflation (which I am not convinced is even real)

Jay wrote:

Of course the inflation is real. You just live in your house and don't pay any bills like a loser
Shut the fuck up, ghost of Jay's past.


* Doesn't it feel nice to be held hostage by red state pigs? Don't you enjoy your life and the lives of all you love being determined in 2 year cycles?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+496|3692
inflation is definitely real in the UK and europe. the cost of living is ballooning and household bills are way up, by something like 8-10%. this is of course compounded by other elements other than the direct consequence of so much fiscal stimulus over the last year. but, yes, the macro-economic picture is looking uglier by the day. widespread lockdowns are overkill at this point -- and, as i said, can't actually extirpate a global pandemic, anyway. none of it is even worth it so long as most of the global south are unvaccinated and without hope of catching up very soon. it makes no sense to aim for total suppression in your local region when it will inevitably overspill from less fortunate areas of the globe, anyway.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

We should all just give up.
i am nothing like so resigned. but here is what – provably – flattens the curve of highly infectious new variants:

  • social distancing measures, limiting group sizes, wearing masks, minimizing contact in the general population.
  • closure of offices, schools, limiting of public transport, and moving to WFH arrangements wherever possible.
  • increased precautions such as regular testing, the use of vaccine passports, contact tracing for venues.
  • vaccination and booster drives which dramatically slash the rates of hospitalization and death.
  • and, yes, though it isn't a good thing to hear, increased levels of herd-immunity as infection rates rise within the (largely vaccinated) population, too.
Works like super well and shit, where is Britain now? ~100,000 case/day? I guess you'll have achieved herd immunity for alpha soon, just got to get through delta and omicron in time for gamma.

Dramatically crimping travel worked very well for australia, literally every outbreak was due to glitches in the system, not due to the basis of the system being flawed.

It's only egotists and morons who think they 'need' to travel constantly, it just isn't true and doesn't impact most economies whatsoever.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
I guess you'll have achieved herd immunity for alpha soon
well done at demonstrating, once again, that you have no understanding of the overall picture and direction of this pandemic. alpha barely exists anymore. that's because it was outcompeted by more transmissible strains. don't you understand? the rise of omicron has an effect on the strains which are already prevalent. which is rather my point that herd immunity to milder strains can, in a roundabout way, be advantageous. that's how the spanish influenza pandemic was wrapped up. you literally do not know what you are talking about.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/covid-19/variants-concern

cf. section 'de-escalated variants of concern'.

Alpha | Drastically reduced circulation in the EU/EEA following the emergence of Delta; little evidence of impact on vaccine induced immunity
and britain hasn’t done any of those things properly. where did i say britain was a role model or case study to emulate?

did korea get swamped with alpha? delta? no? want to know why? taiwan has flattened the curve of several serious outbreaks. NEITHER COUNTRY closed their borders totally or fixated on tourists above all else (returning korean citizens actually introduced alpha and delta to the country). they had meaningful policies directed at their GENERAL POPULATION, within which compliance was generally very high. that shit works.

australia is an island nation of 20 million people at the bottom end of the world. how many times do we have to go over this futile comparison? and, no, total border isolation did not work. you’re missing the rather inconvenient fact that melbourne spent TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY days under lockdown and that delta still established a permanent foothold on the continent.  ‘but muh state of 2 million people managed just fine’. have a fucking biscuit for the 14th time.

glitches in the system
lmao, yes, australia and china and new zealand and every country to pursue 'zero covid' was foiled by those damn 'glitches in the system!'

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 21:23:03)

uziq
Member
+496|3692
It's only egotists and morons who think they 'need' to travel constantly, it just isn't true and doesn't impact most economies whatsoever.
why do you spout such evidently, verifiably false claptrap? is this all part of your god-brained uber-scientist schtick? you seem dumb as fuck. we are not only talking about caribbean cruise destinations, goa, and phuket. although even amongst these tourism-heavy destinations, such as spain, for instance, we are talking about economic ruin and immiseration for literally tens of millions of people, which isn't exactly no small thing (but it doesn't affect you and mostly affects workers in developing countries, so hey ho, no surprises that dilbert doesn't give a salutary shit about it).

https://unctad.org/news/global-economy- … ct-tourism
'Global economy could lose over $4 trillion due to COVID-19 impact on tourism'

bracketing that aside, crimping travel has a demonstrable effect on national economies – including australia's. isn't your entire university sector in crisis because all those monied international students suddenly pulled out at the beginning of the pandemic, leading to a funding vacuum and giant ledger of liabilities?

https://www.businessthink.unsw.edu.au/a … ing-crisis
'Australia's higher education sector needs significant reform to remove the perverse incentives that have made universities dependent on revenue from international students, writes UNSW Business School's Richard Holden'

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/ne … s-minister
‘Worst to come’ for Australian university finances, warns minister
Education minister concedes impact of plummeting international enrolments, but says things would be worse without intervention'

LOL okay but travel only affects backpackers and egotists who want to go and pet tranquilized tigers, or something.

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/trade/the … 443fc6b-en

The analysis relies on several illustrative scenarios in which all the countries are assumed to close their borders to passengers, but leave freight trade open. Services trade costs are estimated to increase by an average of 12% of export values across sectors and countries in the medium term in such a hypothetical scenario. The analysis identifies a large variability in the increase in services-trade costs across sectors and across countries, reflecting the stringency of initial regulations and the relative importance of business travel and labour mobility to international services trade.
travel bans literally hurt business. there is a direct correlation, even, between the cost of international travel and the eventual cost to the consumer. this is so fucking obvious that i can't believe it has to be pointed out to you.

dilbert, use your fucking head for once in your inane little life.

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 21:24:53)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Tourism - "We need everyone to spend dollars abroad so people spend dollars here
Pandemic - "Or you could just spend your dollars here for the same net benefit and not burn all that kerosene"

Education - "Lets completely bloat the education sector and make ourselves totally dependent on foreign students and their money, dumb down the degrees and make them worthless to everyone and our graduates unemployable"
Pandemic - "Well that was stupid wasn't it"

Service Sector "We must have a pool of people prepared to work for minimum wage or less, we don't have a viable business without them"
Pandemic - "Uh huh"
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
none of your cynicism disproves the fact that the economic harm is very real and has serious impact on workers, institutions and national economies.

expressing distaste about the state of the australian university system doesn't nullify the awkward fact that cancelling travel has plunged the sector into a financial crisis.

so you're wrong. please stop making such verifiably false statements.

nobody would like for this pandemic to cause a global pivot to fully automated luxury socialism more than me, believe me, but that's not the discussion we are having, is it? travel restrictions are about way, way more than 'selfish egotists who want to go and gawp at things on a beach'.

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 21:31:38)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
People have been expressing distaste for the university system for years now - pumping out top-class graduates who cannot communicate in english.

Australians are pissed they're paying for degrees which are seen as worthless.
I saw my sister's exam papers, they're literally unfailable.

Q1 - The cost of a product is $100, GST is 10%, what is the total price?

a) Banana
b) $110
c) Mexico
d) One of a b or c
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
none of which has anything at all to do with the fact that banning travel is a huge economic self-wound, and that better and more meaningful public health policies can be implemented.

Q1. you ban travel but still let your citizens gather in restaurants and pubs without masks. what happens to covid's rate of infection?
a) it miraculously disappears because selfish, dirty tourists stay home
b) it increases
c) it increases
d) it increases

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 21:44:18)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

none of which has anything at all to do with the fact that banning travel is a huge economic self-wound, and that better and more meaningful public health policies can be implemented.

Q1. you ban travel but still let your citizens gather in restaurants and pubs without masks. what happens to covid's rate of infection?
a) it miraculously disappears because selfish, dirty tourists stay home
b) it increases
c) it increases
d) it increases
e) You have almost no cases at all except in quarantine where they belong, thanks to minimal inward travel managed sensibly

https://i.imgur.com/ajAcqAC.png

https://i.imgur.com/1aUXpFX.png

NSW and Vic stupidly fucked up their quarantine, the remainder have done extremely well and - apart from travel related business which is being supported - business is thriving

Now everywhere is opening up due to ideological nuttery and business is collapsing because everyone is staying home.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
the rest are tiny states with populations smaller than most modern cities. well done. surprise surprise that they aren't tightly imbricated in the global economy and movement of people/trade/goods.

it's not sheer accident or incompetence that your major cities, and hence destinations for the movement of people and goods, have failed to contain delta. it's not an accident that china failed. it's not an accident that new zealand failed.

amazing. your message has consistently been 'the entire world should be more like south australia'. i'll get on the phone to the mayor of new york now.

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 22:08:05)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
Or WA, or QLD, or TAS

New Zealand really should have been the world leader, they fucked up their quarantine too.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
QLD has a population of 5 million people in an area of 1.9 million square kilometres.

you do know that most industrially advanced nations dealing with covid waves have second-tier cities with that many people?

berlin has a population of 3.7 million people in an area of 890 square kilometres.

hmm why can't the whole world just isolate and suppress covid, really it's no problem, just look at QLD, WA, TAS ... etc.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956

Dilbert_X wrote:

Or WA, or QLD, or TAS

New Zealand really should have been the world leader, they fucked up their quarantine too.
Perth is the most isolated city in the world lmao

QLD I can get your Argument but TAS is an island within an island…

Not to mention all of the above went into snap lockdowns when there was 2 cases leaked from hotel quarantine. Entire populations had to mask up etc.

Literally proving uziqs point lmao.
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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956
But QLD tourism economy has been completely decimated. But they’re not real people for dilbs.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX
But apart from the odd snap lockdown which no-one cared about the country has basically been in business as usual.
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Cybargs wrote:

But QLD tourism economy has been completely decimated. But they’re not real people for dilbs.
They've had a lot of support too.
Fuck Israel
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956

Dilbert_X wrote:

But apart from the odd snap lockdown which no-one cared about the country has basically been in business as usual.
But it’s all the other things that worked, mask, social distancing, venue limitation etc.

Melbs failed badly due to lockdown fatigue as wel, people stopped giving a fuck and didn’t help rule breaking was heavily encouraged by government MPs and Murdoch media.
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uziq
Member
+496|3692
yes, my point is exactly that without stringent measures in the general population, you're not going to do anything to curb the spread of highly infectious new variants like delta/omicron.

obsessing over hotel quarantines and tourists is not enough. there will always be leaks and 'glitches'. it is impossible to screen for something as complex – and evasive – as new covid variants, perfectly, every time. most of the cases of quarantine 'glitches' in places like NZ and china, when you actually look at the circumstances, come from extreme deviations from the expected norm. people with 2-3 vaccinations, 2-3 weeks of quarantine, 5+ tests ... who leave quarantine with the all-clear and then 3 days later test positive for the new variant. it's just an inevitability: as long as people or goods move from place to place, covid is, eventually, going to come with it.

at this point most world governments have realized that delta/omicron are so transmissible that it's simply not tenable to hard suppress them anymore. to really meaningfully slow their rate of spread would require near-total lockdowns again, something for which people don't have the political or economic appetite. dilbert still thinks we just need to  hire better security at hotel quarantines and it'll be fine. laughably out of touch.

Last edited by uziq (2021-12-17 22:20:29)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956
One bright side due to rona is that wages are shooting up, gonna be pushing hard during pay review.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

But apart from the odd snap lockdown which no-one cared about the country has basically been in business as usual.
But it’s all the other things that worked, mask, social distancing, venue limitation etc.

Melbs failed badly due to lockdown fatigue as wel, people stopped giving a fuck and didn’t help rule breaking was heavily encouraged by government MPs and Murdoch media.
Mostly it was travel restrictions and quarantine, once it leaks out its essentially impossible to control in the community, which what happened.
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6346|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

at this point most world governments have realized that delta/omicron are so transmissible that it's simply not tenable to hard suppress them anymore.
Yes, just let the people die.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+496|3692
do you know how many people have died because of omicron so far? don't let actual figures affect your arguments. they don't seem to have grazed your adamantine head so far.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6956

Dilbert_X wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

But apart from the odd snap lockdown which no-one cared about the country has basically been in business as usual.
But it’s all the other things that worked, mask, social distancing, venue limitation etc.

Melbs failed badly due to lockdown fatigue as wel, people stopped giving a fuck and didn’t help rule breaking was heavily encouraged by government MPs and Murdoch media.
Mostly it was travel restrictions and quarantine, once it leaks out its essentially impossible to control in the community, which what happened.
Not necessarily. Taiwan had a few outbreaks where it was controlled just by mask wearing. Taiwan only had one lockdown due to horny bois.

It’s whether people are willing to change lifestyle. Melbs has beaten Covid a few times, but can’t keep locking down forever.
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