unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

Big talk I guess about how "BLM thugs" have threatened death to the judge/jury if they don't make him guilty. While it wouldn't surprise me that someone flapped their jaw online to more or less that effect, it would be interesting to see one of those articles cite an actual, specific threat.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+639|3798
I think there has been demonstrations at the court house. The idea of those is to definitely pressure the jury. That said...oh well.

I have complained in the past about leniency towards (black) criminals and how that negatively affects communities and society as a whole, right? "Why don't we talk more about the victims" I have said before. Kyle's attendance at that protest harmed the community and society. The killings did the same. So would an acquittal. However justified the shootings were doesn't matter anymore. People are dead, somebody needs to be punished, and an example needs to be set against armed protest.

I feel like I deserve a reward for being consistent in my application of this belief regardless of race and political affiliation. The Bible says one of the worst sins is hypocrisy.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

I am not sure that leniency towards black criminals, who are often given harsher sentences than their white counterparts, makes much sense unless you think the courts are too lenient on everyone. Haven't you also said in the past though that prison is overused? Where do you really stand?
uziq
Member
+492|3530
conviction rates and sentencing for blacks vs. whites would scupper the idea that the american justice system is 'lenient on black criminals'. perhaps the media and changing social attitudes w/r/t BLM does do a disservice to individual victims and shouts over their victimhood with talk of systemic oppression, injustice, etc. but ... erm, the actual law stats do not paint a pretty picture for african-american equal justice.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

This should be of interest to your job, mac. Remember the high school sophomore (Kalief Browder) who was held up at Riker's for 3 years (including 2 in solitary), without trial or conviction, on suspicion of stealing a backpack. They tried to browbeat him into a guilty plea by hovering a 15-year sentence over his head, which he refused to go along with. "Go home a criminal or lose an even larger chunk of your life." The case was finally thrown out and he was released. Committed suicide by hanging.

"We ArE tOo LeNiEnT oN bLaCkS!" -macbeth

shut up.

you, a college-educated person, should be above this nonsense.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2021-11-17 19:29:45)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+639|3798
I am mostly referring to violent crime. Many blue states have an issue where their elimination of death penalty leads to killers doing 20 years and getting out while their victims are stuck in the Nightmare Before Christmas. Then they go onto commit more violence.

Should this man have been let out of prison?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Sunday_massacre_(homicide)

I am against people doing any time for drug crimes.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research- … sentencing

1. Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders during the Post-Report period (fiscal years 2012-2016), as they had for the prior four periods studied. The differences in sentence length remained relatively unchanged compared to the Post-Gall period.

3. Violence in an offender’s criminal history does not appear to account for any of the demographic differences in sentencing. Black male offenders received sentences on average 20.4 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders, accounting for violence in an offender’s past in fiscal year 2016, the only year for which such data is available. This figure is almost the same as the 20.7 percent difference without accounting for past violence. Thus, violence in an offender’s criminal history does not appear to contribute to the sentence imposed to any extent beyond its contribution to the offender’s criminal history score determined under the sentencing guidelines.
uziq
Member
+492|3530

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I am against people doing any time for drug crimes.
i read a funny tweet about this from a very lulzy twitter account called 'lo-fi republican'.

https://twitter.com/LoFiRepublican/stat … 7855404034
The war on drugs would actually be pretty cool if it shifted away from 20 year prison sentences for street-level pot dealers and instead focused on things like drone striking fentanyl factories, boots on the ground in cartel territory, military tribunals for pharma execs etc
your issue seems to be with the maximum sentences for murder and homicide, rather than a racial issue. blacks might commit murder statistically more often than whites, but it doesn't change the basic 'justice?' question you're asking when the killer gets released before the victim's family might wish (i.e. before an eternity of rotting in jail).

for every sensational case of an african-american multiple homicide murderer being released alive, there's 1,000 african-americans who have lost their lives to the prison system and life as a felon over some utterly trivial shit that white americans wouldn't be troubled about.

Last edited by uziq (2021-11-17 20:38:11)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I am mostly referring to violent crime. Many blue states have an issue where their elimination of death penalty leads to killers doing 20 years and getting out while their victims are stuck in the Nightmare Before Christmas. Then they go onto commit more violence.

Should this man have been let out of prison?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Sunday_massacre_(homicide)

I am against people doing any time for drug crimes.
This is a really bad example for your claim of so-called leniency towards blacks.

Christopher Thomas, 68, was released from Shawangunk Correctional Facility on Jan. 5 and is believed to be residing in Queens, N.Y., the New York Post reported. He was released after serving about two-thirds of his 50-year maximum sentence, good behavior and fulfilling other criteria, a New York State Department of Corrections spokesperson said.

“The parole board did not let him out,” the spokesperson said. “He had five appearances before the parole board and was denied every time. He doesn’t need board approval because he served two-thirds.”
While Thomas was sentenced to 83 to 250 years, New York State law capped his sentence at 50 years. But a judge said he never wanted the killer to go free.

''It is this court's intention that you serve every day, every hour and every minute of the maximum sentence I impose on you,'' state Supreme Court Justice Ronald Aiello said while sentencing Thomas

'''Don't let him out.' That is my message to the New York State Parole Board,'' Aiello added.

But, at the time, New York law automatically granted 1/3 time off maximum sentences for good behavior. That’s why Thomas was released in January – he had served 2/3 of his maximum sentence and authorities had no choice but to release him. That law has since been changed, to grant only 1/7 off of an offender’s maximum sentence for good behavior.

Thomas will be on parole for the next 17 years.

Jaffe, the cop who adopted Rivera, told the New York Daily News, “This guy killed 10 people and I can’t believe he is free. But he is free and I hope he’s rehabilitated.”
Yes, definitely about blacks getting off easy. Nothing to do with just the way the state law is.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

Meanwhile,

'I have no excuses, it was indefensible': Contrite 'QAnon Shaman' Jacob Chansley is sentenced to 41 months in prison for his role in Capitol riots - the joint longest sentence so far
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … haman.html

"[…] akin to the kind of thing Martin Luther King would have said"
"[…] like Gandhi"
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,811|6184|eXtreme to the maX
Chansley is lucky he wasn't black, a black guy would have got life for plotting to behead the VP.

Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders.
You'd think this would act as a deterrent.

uziq wrote:

drone striking fentanyl factories
I could get behind this.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-11-17 21:27:16)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3530
deterrence, like justice generally, should apply to all citizens equally. that's what democracy is, dilbert. you don't bully certain subgroups to 'deter' them. laws and justice are part of normative morality, and democratic norms apply to all.

it's amazing that you claim 'blacks were freed and made legal citizens hundreds of years ago, get over it', and then in other contexts speak about them as if they're a discrete and subaltern group who should be treated differently by the justice system. do you know what democratic citizenship is? you retard fascist.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,811|6184|eXtreme to the maX
Maybe the average black person isn't aware of these sentencing disparities and doesn't take it into account when weighing up whether to commit a crime.

Perhaps they need it spelled out to them in advance, enshrine 20% longer sentences in law, then it won't come as a surprise.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

It's not like the disparities are a fraction of a fraction of a percent off. Point is, there shouldn't be any noteworthy disparities, let alone in the double digit percentile. No excuses should be made for that system, or myths upheld (mac's "blacks are treated too leniently," lol).

What do you think of this?

Gender Differences in the Sentencing of Felony Offenders wrote:

Of all cases, 98.1 percent were resolved through pleas. Females were more likely to have outcomes determined by pleas to reduced charges than were males. Fewer women (17 percent) than men (28 percent) were incarcerated, but sentence dispositions varied greatly across the eight major offense categories. While the percentage of males incarcerated for each category always exceeded that of women, women were more likely to be sentenced to jail for robbery and assault than were men; men were more likely than women to be incarcerated for property crime. This suggests that women may be sanctioned more harshly when their behavior violates sex-role stereotypes. Finally, comparisons of sentence lengths indicates that prison terms of males and females did not differ, the terms of probation for males were significantly longer than for females, and males also received significantly longer jail terms. 5 tables and 40 references.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-libra … -offenders
uziq
Member
+492|3530

Dilbert_X wrote:

Maybe the average black person isn't aware of these sentencing disparities and doesn't take it into account when weighing up whether to commit a crime.

Perhaps they need it spelled out to them in advance, enshrine 20% longer sentences in law, then it won't come as a surprise.
yes, right, african-americans aren't aware that the state and legal system have fucked them
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,811|6184|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

yes, right, african-americans aren't aware that the state and legal system have fucked them
Again you'd think they'd work extra hard to keep their noses clean.

Maybe they're to some extent like aboriginals who simply cannot get to grips with a modern justice system because they don't have the attention span or long term view.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

It's almost as if other aspects of disparity in American life are measurable contributors to crime statistics.
uziq
Member
+492|3530

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

yes, right, african-americans aren't aware that the state and legal system have fucked them
Again you'd think they'd work extra hard to keep their noses clean.

Maybe they're to some extent like aboriginals who simply cannot get to grips with a modern justice system because they don't have the attention span or long term view.
maybe being victimized and over-penalized makes people bitter and rebellious.

you need a stake in society before you care about keeping off the lawns. this is basic human psychology, not some deep-seated 'genetic' fault in all of the world's subaltern populations. good luck, again, with your nonsense science, though. which reminds me ... you were peculiarly quiet when faced with the overwhelming mountain of academic research on environmental factors, and still haven't produced a single study that establishes this 'law-breaking', 'rapist' gene.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

It's reassuring to know that our judges sometimes pray over what legal decisions they should make.

“I’m not ashamed to say that I actually prayed over what is the appropriate sentence in this case because there was great pain. There was great harm. There were multiple crimes committed in the case,” Murphy said, according to WKBW. “It seems to me that a sentence that involves incarceration or partial incarceration isn’t appropriate, so I am going to sentence you to probation.”

Belter, of Lewiston, N.Y., will have to register as a sex offender as part of his sentence. Murphy told Belter in court that the probation sentence would be “like a sword hanging over your head for the next eight years.” The judge did not elaborate on why he did not impose jail time.

Steven M. Cohen, an attorney for one of the victims, denounced the judge’s sentencing, saying to reporters Tuesday, “Justice was not done here.” He told The Washington Post on Wednesday that his client, who was joined by some of the other victims in the courtroom, was “deeply disappointed” in the sentencing.

“My client threw up in the ladies room following the sentencing,” Cohen said. “If Chris Belter was not a White defendant from a rich and influential family, in my experience … he would surely have been sentenced to prison.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 … probation/

The “party house” label at Belter’s family home was fueled by his mother, Tricia Vacanti, now 50; his stepfather, Gary Sullo, 56; and Jessica M. Long, 42, a family friend, who allegedly supplied teen girls with alcohol and marijuana, according to state police. The three adults, who police say helped groom the women for sexual assaults by Belter, have pleaded not guilty in Lewiston Town Court to misdemeanor charges of child endangerment and unlawfully dealing with a child. None of them responded to requests for comment Wednesday.
Proper takeaway: we're too lenient with black people. Why are black people like this?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,811|6184|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

haven't produced a single study that establishes this 'law-breaking', 'rapist' gene.
No academic would risk their career on that kind of study, they're too busy blaming rape victims for being the wrong ethnicity and taking the wrong drugs.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3530
ah yes it's aCaDemIc grOuptHinK.

you are a fucking moron.

do you have any idea how many people on the right-wing would love to conclusively find that immigrants are terrible for the health of their society? right-wing billionaires/millionaires like the koch bro(s) already have about 30 thinktanks and research foundations set-up with their infinite largesse, publishing research and policy papers on every hot-button topic that suits their vested interests. do you really think if it was easy to deduce, once and for all, by scientific reasoning that immigrants were genetically more dangerous ... that it wouldn't have been published?

besides, we live in an era of open access publishing, self-publishing, internet pre-press servers, etc. a scientist or research group don't need the imprimatur and backing of a huge and official institution to go ahead and publish their findings anymore. so please stop trying to misrepresent the picture – it's really incredibly dishonest of you. if there was ample and available evidence that brown/black people really were innately more disposed to violence and rape, then, trust me, the results would be out there.

in fact, you're so dishonest and distort the picture so much on this topic that it's almost risible. notable fringe groups of scientists on the racist-eugenicist right had been convening meetings and symposia at august institutions like UCL for years before anyone even took much notice or exception to it. this, mind you, literally decades after the entire field of eugenics had been disproven as unscientific, ideology-led tosh: no amount of research or experiment in eugenics ever delivered any positive results. and yet the cranks still had their little white supremacist meetings at one of the best research universities in the world. go figure.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2021/jan/ucl … y-eugenics
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 … -on-campus
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+639|3798
When I mentioned that I have a lack a leniency towards black criminals I didn't mean it as "I hate blacks". I meant it as "nobody gets a break because of their demographics". That was supposed to be a counter example to the white people whose "hearts are breaking" at seeing Kyle cry but would throw a black into jail forever for some petty bullshit. I get no pleasure seeing blacks in prison.

uziq wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I am against people doing any time for drug crimes.
i read a funny tweet about this from a very lulzy twitter account called 'lo-fi republican'.

https://twitter.com/LoFiRepublican/stat … 7855404034
The war on drugs would actually be pretty cool if it shifted away from 20 year prison sentences for street-level pot dealers and instead focused on things like drone striking fentanyl factories, boots on the ground in cartel territory, military tribunals for pharma execs etc
Fighting cartels like we fought terrorists is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard "Call of Duty Americans" come up with. It's like they don't realize we lost the War on Terror.

If we send troops to go fight the cartels we will end up surrendering Mexico to the Sinola cartel in 20 years while we are trapped in Mexico City's airport.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+639|3798

uziq wrote:

ah yes it's aCaDemIc grOuptHinK.

you are a fucking moron.

do you have any idea how many people on the right-wing would love to conclusively find that immigrants are terrible for the health of their society? right-wing billionaires/millionaires like the koch bro(s) already have about 30 thinktanks and research foundations set-up with their infinite largesse, publishing research and policy papers on every hot-button topic that suits their vested interests. do you really think if it was easy to deduce, once and for all, by scientific reasoning that immigrants were genetically more dangerous ... that it wouldn't have been published?

besides, we live in an era of open access publishing, self-publishing, internet pre-press servers, etc. a scientist or research group don't need the imprimatur and backing of a huge and official institution to go ahead and publish their findings anymore. so please stop trying to misrepresent the picture – it's really incredibly dishonest of you. if there was ample and available evidence that brown/black people really were innately more disposed to violence and rape, then, trust me, the results would be out there.

in fact, you're so dishonest and distort the picture so much on this topic that it's almost risible. notable fringe groups of scientists on the racist-eugenicist right had been convening meetings and symposia at august institutions like UCL for years before anyone even took much notice or exception to it. this, mind you, literally decades after the entire field of eugenics had been disproven as unscientific, ideology-led tosh: no amount of research or experiment in eugenics ever delivered any positive results. and yet the cranks still had their little white supremacist meetings at one of the best research universities in the world. go figure.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2021/jan/ucl … y-eugenics
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 … -on-campus
The biggest commonality among violent criminals is that they are young men. Older men aren't as violent. Women aren't as violent. It's the young men making communities unlivable. It's no surprise that all 4 of the people in the Kyle case are young men. He didn't shoot someone's grandfather.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6850|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

When I mentioned that I have a lack a leniency towards black criminals
I have complained in the past about leniency towards (black) criminals and how that negatively affects communities and society as a whole, right?
So what's your point exactly? That you don't feel lenient? Or that the courts are too lenient?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+639|3798
We should be harder on violent criminals. I don't like how some of the BLM movement people downplay violent crime and its effect on communities. I don't like reading stories about people getting killed by guys who did 20 years for murder and then got released. It happens too often.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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