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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5896|USA

I don't recall even feeling that way during my Bush-voting years.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
https://i.redd.it/iqbh95kl7ji41.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5756|949

i fed a squirrel on the golf course yesterday. There were signs saying "don't feed the wildlife". I didn't actually feed it so much as it stole the free bag of potato chips out of my cart. I saw a coyote eat a squirrel on this same golf course a few years ago so I think i'm positively contributing to the circle of life.

I also saw a red fox. It was pretty cool.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

i fed a squirrel on the golf course yesterday. There were signs saying "don't feed the wildlife". I didn't actually feed it so much as it stole the free bag of potato chips out of my cart. I saw a coyote eat a squirrel on this same golf course a few years ago so I think i'm positively contributing to the circle of life.

I also saw a red fox. It was pretty cool.
There's a large bee like creature that guards my tomato garden. It actually is really annoying because I have to tend to the garden around his schedule. I am happy to give him something to do though.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
Article headline
Nuns Raped Girls With Crucifixes as Female Pedophilia Was Covered Up by the Church
Maybe we should rethink the vow of celibacy. It would be much better if the priest and nuns instead this this sort of stuff to each other with everyone being an adult and consenting.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Lets just cancel religion
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Article headline
Nuns Raped Girls With Crucifixes as Female Pedophilia Was Covered Up by the Church
Maybe we should rethink the vow of celibacy. It would be much better if the priest and nuns instead this this sort of stuff to each other with everyone being an adult and consenting.
whilst we're here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ … ren-report

The French Catholic church has expressed “shame” and pleaded for forgiveness, after a devastating report found that at least 330,000 children were victims of sexual abuse by clergy and lay members of church institutions over the past 70 years.

The publication of the landmark report on Thursday, France’s first major reckoning with what the Catholic church accepted was “appalling” abuse, has shaken the country with its horrific findings of a “massive phenomenon” of sexual abusers of children operating for decades within the church and its associated institutions.
this is systemic. you'll find it in irish-american dioceses in the states; you'll find it in cosmopolitan france; you'll find it in ireland's institutions and boarding homes; you'll find it in the missionary and jesuit fringes of paraguay and uruguay; you'll find it in the secretive pedo-world of the vatican.

and this is the church you dishonestly self-identify with in order to accuse other religions of being 'evil'?

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 18:06:24)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
The confessional gives criminals carte-blanche to do what they want, paedophiles, terrorists, gangsters, its not a coincidence they all latch onto it.

Its not a coincidence that a shitstain like Blair latched onto Catholicism either.

I've heard enough Christians say "I'm a Christian, I can't do any wrong because I follow Christian values" as they proceed to do the nastiest things.
Birds Aren't Real
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
At least Catholics need to go to a priest to ask for forgiveness. Evangelicals who think they have a direct line to God are the real evil of the world.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
We should go back to locking away the mentally ill, not giving them tax breaks and a seat in government.

2-3 generations and we could eradicate religion-junkies.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576

Dilbert_X wrote:

The confessional gives criminals carte-blanche to do what they want, paedophiles, terrorists, gangsters, its not a coincidence they all latch onto it.

Its not a coincidence that a shitstain like Blair latched onto Catholicism either.

I've heard enough Christians say "I'm a Christian, I can't do any wrong because I follow Christian values" as they proceed to do the nastiest things.
forgiveness is an important part of ethics, and doesn't necessarily have to be included in some catholic calculus of venial and mortal sins. the ability to forgive and to 'love thy neighbour' really is an important development and something which distinguishes us from the bloody and retributive model of previous ethical frameworks (i.e. new testament versus old testament).

it's ironic that you rally against the evils of religion whilst continually embodying the most fire-and-brimstone aspects of religious censoriousness and moralising. you are more old testament than you like to admit, with your talks of tribes and the strong triumphing over the weak, etc.
uziq
Member
+426|2576

SuperJail Warden wrote:

At least Catholics need to go to a priest to ask for forgiveness. Evangelicals who think they have a direct line to God are the real evil of the world.
no, self-appointed human representatives of god are clearly the problem. i don't see reports claiming that evangelicals have worldwide-coordinated networks of pedophiles and sex abusers. there is no evangelical or protestant equivalent of the catholic seminary, i.e. a prolonged training school that enforces celibacy (and so promotes deviancy). elevating a person to any sort of ecumenical position or priesthood, a closed order with its own private codes of behaviour, is where the seriously questionable abuses of power come into play.

protestants with their 'direct line to god' are not the main culprits here. a person can leave a corrupt or cult-like protestant congregation and join another. if a person leaves their local rotten catholic church, chances are they'll go to another parish/diocese and find another pedo that has been shuffled around by the ecclesiastical bureaucracy; or, at least, they won't find any sympathetic ear to their complaints, as the church has been organised to shush victims and cover up its trespasses. it's a closed shop and they're not sweeping the floor.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 18:43:44)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

forgiveness is an important part of ethics, and doesn't necessarily have to be included in some catholic calculus of venial and mortal sins. the ability to forgive and to 'love thy neighbour' really is an important development and something which distinguishes us from the bloody and retributive model of previous ethical frameworks (i.e. new testament versus old testament).
Look at what giving unlimited forgiveness to the unethical does though.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576
human beings are compromised. we make mistakes, we err, we sin. forgiveness has an important place in this acknowledgment of human culpability. in this sense the religious point-of-view has a much more realistic assessment of humanity than your cold, ratiocinative, technocratic one.

clearly some levels of criminality should be beyond the pale, for the public sake of society. certain types of criminal should be removed from the general population, at least until they can seriously reform their characters. but, between individuals as a private matter, the family of a murder victim can choose to forgive. it can be a significant and profound act on their own road to healing and closure. holding grudges and blood feuds for generations, as seemed to obtain for most of human history before christianity, doesn't seem like a better system.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 18:52:49)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Of course, "I'm going to commit some unspeakable crimes, do some hail marys, and its all fine" doesn't really fly though does it?
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576
that's an awful nice straw-man and i'm not sure i know of any serial criminals who really think that going to the confessional booth makes it alright to commit infinite crimes with a clear conscience. have you been watching too many movies?

and, again, i've just said that criminal actions need to be punished to satisfy society's collective need for justice. it makes sense that anything perceived as a crime by the group should come with a punishment. but that doesn't make the idea of confession/forgiveness a ludicrous concept. it has a very important place in interpersonal ethics.

you know, in the vengeful mode, sometimes even the state's declared punishment isn't enough for the aggrieved party. forgiveness really is better than this blood feud model. jesus had it right.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 18:56:25)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
If people like gangsters who enjoy a life of crime while living in the community are 'serial criminals' - and I think there are - then there's a very long list of them who do it with a clear conscience thanks to catholic confessional.

Confession/forgiveness without punishment is an anti-social concept and the Catholic church should be dismantled for that reason alone.

This guy can fuck off

Mr Perrottet has also opposed laws to force priests to disclose child abuse arguing “the confessional seal is sacrosanct for every priest in every penitent no matter what sins are confessed”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Perrottet
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576
i really don't think there is an entire class of catholic-gangster criminals who use confession as a crutch to enable crime sprees. that's movie stuff.

there isn't a particular problem in catholicism with criminality as such because of its doctrines of forgiveness. there is an issue with sex abuse and pedophilia, and of institutional cover-ups. if the act of confession is part of that sub rosa obfuscation, then that's just another insult from all the guilty parties involved.

what you're describing above is pathological individuals – criminal sociopaths and psychopaths and so on. a criminal individual will reach for any number of available self-justifications for their actions: catholicism is just a readily available framework for anyone that is born and raised in, oh, i don't know, 16% of the world's total population. the catholic faith isn't the substantive cause, here: it gives an expedient moral justification. a gangster living a life of crime is probably going to find some elaborate justification for their actions, one way or another; catholic theology hardly has much to do with it.

people do do bad things 'because' of religion, because of zealotry or sectarianism or whatever. but everyday criminals aren't enabled by the confession booth. i think that's a rather ridiculous premise and you've seen too many clichéd scenes in movies.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 19:55:56)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
I didn't say people do things 'because of religion', a free pass for whatever you do is certainly an enabler though.

I'm sure the thousands of French priests who abused hundreds of thousands of children used it readily.

It also keeps the rest of the community cowed having a quasi-judicial organisation approving and enabling this stuff.
Want to go to heaven? Don't second-guess your priest.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-10-05 20:30:24)

Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576
i doubt the priests in france were confessing to one another, dilbert. that guy above is just trying to hide behind 'the confessional seal' so that he doesn't have to 'whistleblow' on his peers.

do you really think a mobster who engages in pimping, or fraud, or even murder thinks to themselves: 'it's alright, i'll confess to this on sunday and all will be fine!' of course they don't. that they might try and justify their ways through religious rituals just speaks for their cultural background and 'framework'. it's a ready-made system and their mea culpas are cynical, readily taking advantage of it.

the fact that catholicism has a heavy guilt element and emphasizes lots of the hell-and-eternity stuff gets no quarrel from me. i can see why it had a use in relatively lawless periods, when the official state was weak and had very little way to implement law-and-order. it wasn't so long ago that most european states essentially had travelling judges who would turn up to weigh on local matters before moving on, and no police forces to speak of. things like the church could 'enforce' good behaviour with all the peasant-superstition fire and brimstone stuff (as well as promoting forgiveness, as i mentioned, which is no small thing in isolated or rural communities where disputes could become lasting rivalries). i have no interest in justifying that, except to say that every community has some sort of form of collective coercion. part of having a group identity is its norms and conformity.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-05 20:34:35)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
^ In the modern age we don't want a group who are a law unto themselves - which apparently they still are.

Even now we have senior politicians who are against the idea that if people become aware of a crime they should report it to the police but let 'the church' handle it instead.

Fuck them honestly, this should have ended 400 years ago.

Same for jews really, they still have the idea that its fine to commit crimes against non-jews.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-10-05 20:34:52)

Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2576
hard agree that the church shouldn't be above the law. nor above taxation on their profits, for that matter.

but to point to confession or the doctrine of forgiveness as somehow 'usurping' common law is a bit much.

religious groups will try and use their own internal channels to police the conduct of their faithful. all abrahamic religions do it. it's important to bear in mind the freedom to practice religion in democracies, whether you think it's bunkum or not. where their confessional practices don't enable criminality, i think it's perfectly fine and acceptable.

one thing which the sopranos made very clear, funnily enough, is the line between older forms of catholic belief and confessional, and the modern-secular equivalent of talking therapy. therapists are similarly under a professional duty to disclose any seriously criminal acts. the catholic church should fall in line with this civic position.
uziq
Member
+426|2576

Dilbert_X wrote:

Same for jews really, they still have the idea that its fine to commit crimes against non-jews.
sigh .. no, they don't. ditto for muslims. no matter which passage from the holy books you want to isolate, the simple fact is that 99% of jews and muslims living in democratic countries are law-abiding citizens and have no problem with conforming to the law in those countries. please stop peddling lines that all religious people are somehow dismissive of the common law and 'a law unto themselves'. it is a nonsense.
uziq
Member
+426|2576
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FB6hRLLUYAMgbSv?format=png&name=large

the pope is very based and marxist.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
Sedevacantist American Catholics, who are overwhelmingly white pig people Republicans who are more like Prots than Catholic, hate this Pope. They should be burned at the stake.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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