Larssen
Member
+99|1858
The han chinese didn't come to dominate 30+ ethnic groups through their peaceful ways. China didn't partake in the era of colonialism, that's all.
Larssen
Member
+99|1858

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

i'm still missing the point of this little pop-historical excursus. what does it have to do with legal citizens of a democracy appealing for their democratic rights again?

yes, the cold war happened. why was china the only scary or maleficent actor there? you do know what america did in south america and indonesia, for example? do you think the west were the 'good guys' in vietnam?!? holy shit, lmao.

are we just going to get into 3 pages of whatboutism so that you can continue depriving any non-whites' appeal to justice? great!
You brought up Rome, the Romans weakened themselves through various means and were annihilated by 'less enlightened' and 'less democratic' peoples.
We'll go the same way.

What does what America did elsewhere have to do with them losing to China twice?
Does it change that China was the aggressor?
Rome was instable and saw its political system crumble and collapse several times before the peoples at the periphery started conquering the empire. It wasn't outsiders who destroyed it, it was the romans themselves above all.
uziq
Member
+492|3423
and china has no ambitions for massive overseas territories, in the roman or european model. the size of those empires was responsible for their collapse. the chinese aren't stupid. a few tens of thousands of brits in india or french in vietnam couldn't subjugate huge native populations forever by force.

all this alarmism about china conquering or enslaving us is stupid. china is much more bothered about 'reunifying' with taiwan and hong kong than with projecting physical power on another continent. what they are doing is economic development, neo-colonial if you will ... which is a playbook that western governments (and politically adjacent corporations) taught them a loooong time ago. oil and minerals companies in africa invented that game a long time before big scary xi jinping.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Rome was instable and saw its political system crumble and collapse several times before the peoples at the periphery started conquering the empire. It wasn't outsiders who destroyed it, it was the romans themselves above all.
Exactly, it was adoption of christianity and hipsterism which brought them down.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

and china has no ambitions for massive overseas territories
Really? They're infiltrating themselves pretty well everywhere right now.

And if they only want to stay within their own border why do they need a military bigger than America's?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3423
no, they're making big loans to developing countries and achieving economic predominance in the region. would you say that western nations were 'conquering' africa when corporations and NGOs moved into newly independent african states?

the biggest threat china poses to places like africa is through spying and intelligence. what would they want to occupy the region by force for? they are already getting everything they want through economic means. which, again, was a playbook invented in the 20th century by the newly ascendant economic orders (after collapsed imperial orders) of europe.
uziq
Member
+492|3423

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Rome was instable and saw its political system crumble and collapse several times before the peoples at the periphery started conquering the empire. It wasn't outsiders who destroyed it, it was the romans themselves above all.
Exactly, it was adoption of christianity and hipsterism which brought them down.
i think you might have to read more than '10 or 20' books on this topic to grasp the fall of rome. gibbon isn't it.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

This might be a little off topic, but Dilbert: what's your top 10-20 books?

You can include graphic novels if you'd like.
Larssen
Member
+99|1858

uziq wrote:

and china has no ambitions for massive overseas territories, in the roman or european model. the size of those empires was responsible for their collapse. the chinese aren't stupid. a few tens of thousands of brits in india or french in vietnam couldn't subjugate huge native populations forever by force.

all this alarmism about china conquering or enslaving us is stupid. china is much more bothered about 'reunifying' with taiwan and hong kong than with projecting physical power on another continent. what they are doing is economic development, neo-colonial if you will ... which is a playbook that western governments (and politically adjacent corporations) taught them a loooong time ago. oil and minerals companies in africa invented that game a long time before big scary xi jinping.
Who does in this day and age? Colonialism came and went. The track record of military occupation in the late 20th/early 21st centuries is also abysmal.

The historical self-neutering/isolationism that China preferred does not mean they're some history-proven docile force. I think that you'll also do good to remember that, as I stated, the country itself consists of 30+ ethnic groups that were ultimately all absorbed or subjugated by the Han. It's more or less an empire that survived until the modern day. Having 1.3 billion+ citizens also means it's governmentally challenging to keep it all together, to put it mildly. Aside from philosophical differences and a more 'inward' sense of superiority, their practical reality & internal dynamics more or less helped preclude active colonial engagement too.

Having said so, the modern lines of conflict are different and China is playing that game every day to effect. They might not want to physically enslave the west, but they're often sure as hell doing what they can to undermine the political/economic/cultural position of the west. Esp. as the state itself is becoming more fascist-authoritarian, it is also setting the stage for a collision with the west. What form that collision will take I can guess, but unless there'll be a massive course correction on either side I'd consider it a likely outcome given the various fault lines in our relationship with the Chinese.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-07-27 05:15:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
Fiction or non-fictions?

Never actually read a graphic novel, unless you count Commando comics. 2000AD Had a lot of good science fiction in it. I have picked up a couple of nostalgia books.

Hard to say really, I've read at least 30-40 books, it would be very hard to pin down the best 20.

'And the Band Played On' Is one of the better ones.
'Dune' I read straight through
'Pistolsmithing' by George Nonte is a lot of fun
'The Chrysalids' an all time favourite, most of John Wyndham is good.
'The Stars My Destination' is an odd one, also 'The Demolished Man', I never found Asimov even slightly interesting.
'A Bridge to Far' etc.
Lord of the Rings obviously.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

no, they're making big loans to developing countries and achieving economic predominance in the region. would you say that western nations were 'conquering' africa when corporations and NGOs moved into newly independent african states?

the biggest threat china poses to places like africa is through spying and intelligence. what would they want to occupy the region by force for? they are already getting everything they want through economic means. which, again, was a playbook invented in the 20th century by the newly ascendant economic orders (after collapsed imperial orders) of europe.
They're taking control and putting their own people in.
Buying up farms and mines across africa, staffing them with chinese and shipping the material out.
Won't be long before they're plundering the world and getting fat while everyone else starves.
They can do that in Africa, other countries they will need to take by force or other strategic means. Taiwan can be starved into submission.

As an aside here are all the ways the chinese cheated to win gold in air rifle

https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/223530710_1084851788585264_4391137401809386178_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=Wb9HlwQduKYAX9VRWIc&_nc_ht=scontent-den4-1.xx&oh=99add504afaba62184fc1ea6818f16e1&oe=61223DDF
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6707|Oxferd Ohire
Olympic winner no needs respect rules?
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
I'm guessing english isn't their first langauge.

The point is the chinese shooter is cheating in seven highly visible ways.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3423
ah yes. olympics athletes. famous litmus tests for world domination plans.
uziq
Member
+492|3423

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

no, they're making big loans to developing countries and achieving economic predominance in the region. would you say that western nations were 'conquering' africa when corporations and NGOs moved into newly independent african states?

the biggest threat china poses to places like africa is through spying and intelligence. what would they want to occupy the region by force for? they are already getting everything they want through economic means. which, again, was a playbook invented in the 20th century by the newly ascendant economic orders (after collapsed imperial orders) of europe.
They're taking control and putting their own people in.
Buying up farms and mines across africa, staffing them with chinese and shipping the material out.
Won't be long before they're plundering the world and getting fat while everyone else starves.
They can do that in Africa, other countries they will need to take by force or other strategic means. Taiwan can be starved into submission.
maybe … europeans … did this for 200 years ?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
So since white people terrorized Africa for 200 years we should checks notes let the Chinese terrorize Africa for awhile too? Why do you hate black people?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3423
blame western liberals for promoting market-based ideologies. we created the game and china are beating us at it.

do i hate black people? that’s news to me. i think china’s actions in africa are concerning enough; i’ve already mentioned that they’ve bugged and are spying on all the shiny new parliament buildings they’ve been building, ‘gratis’. but they’re not going to steamroll the west using military force, which is what dilbert’s rhetoric frequently invokes.

the west spent 30 years trying to open up china to market ideas and now we don’t like that they’re top dog at it. whoops.

i note australia is still dependent on their trade and we are all posting here on devices made in chinese sweatshops by serfs. that’s not irrelevant whataboutism. we have dragged them into the world system and need to think intelligently about how to disentangle ourselves, if that’s to be the political objective. i can’t see it happening myself.

Last edited by uziq (2021-07-28 01:06:57)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

maybe … europeans … did this for 200 years ?
And apparently it's so bad that multiple generations later we should still be flagellating ourselves.

Should we be letting the Chinese do this all over again?

It is 1930 all over again, they're driving their own population towards an inevitable war.



Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3423
oh my god, the chinese military make promotional videos and adverts for TV! insane!

now remind me which nation spends the most on its military budget?

remind me which of the major military powers has deployed those forces in disastrous foreign theatres?

aren't we all here on a video-game forum that basically celebrates american bellicosity?

frightening!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
China is catching up, and as Chinese gear is cheap as shit I'm sure they get a lot more for the money.

China has deployed its forces fairly successfully - Korea and Vietnam - they didn't lose anyway.

Now they're becoming more belligerent and reaching outwards.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Larssen
Member
+99|1858

uziq wrote:

blame western liberals for promoting market-based ideologies. we created the game and china are beating us at it.

do i hate black people? that’s news to me. i think china’s actions in africa are concerning enough; i’ve already mentioned that they’ve bugged and are spying on all the shiny new parliament buildings they’ve been building, ‘gratis’. but they’re not going to steamroll the west using military force, which is what dilbert’s rhetoric frequently invokes.

the west spent 30 years trying to open up china to market ideas and now we don’t like that they’re top dog at it. whoops.

i note australia is still dependent on their trade and we are all posting here on devices made in chinese sweatshops by serfs. that’s not irrelevant whataboutism. we have dragged them into the world system and need to think intelligently about how to disentangle ourselves, if that’s to be the political objective. i can’t see it happening myself.
We may say that military force is outmoded but also have to acknowledge that Chinese military spending is going through the roof, and that the constant cyberwarfare under the surface between the Chinese and the west can turn very ugly very quickly, even accidentally.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
What will happen is they will keep pushing and niggling, just enough to irritate and bog down, not quite enough for a nuclear strike.

Would America go to war over the whole western pacific? Maybe

Would they go to war over:

Hong Kong
then Taiwan
then Malaysia
then The Philippines
then Korea
then Indonesia
then Japan
then Australia
then Hawaii
then New Zealand

My guess is they wouldn't.

Most of these places won't be taken by force, they'll be taken by stealth, with the military lurking in the background as a permanent threat.
Hand over your fisheries and oil rights - which are rightfully chinese and always have been - and ports and farms and airports, and take on huge debts to us, or we will blockade and harass until you give up.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-07-28 03:26:43)

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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

That is a bit of a fantastical, alarmist, slippery-slope depiction of Chinese expansion. "By stealth," what is this Red Alert? Are they going to pop out of the ground in laser drill tanks? By all means they should be taken seriously, but realistically. They're hardly about to paint the map Chinese red.

One of Trump's better notions in ideal form was to contest China on a business level, but he couldn't do it. Failed factory ventures and hurting US businesses back home in the name of the trade war, then hurting everyone with COVID politicization. Of course, a sitting president should take responsibility for their failures. Unless I guess that president is Trump.

The west honestly has itself to blame for dragging its feet through this COVID and attached economic recovery.


Not specifically related, partisan article from the dhs.gov:
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/10/29/bor … -smugglers

Oct 29 2020. "Trump: prudent, from day one." Close to election. Things that make you go 'HMM.'

From forbes, 2019:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartande … 8fce0b3b16

If those who favor a wall believe in its effectiveness, then we should find evidence that they are also advocating for far fewer U.S. Border Patrol agents.
lolol
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
By stealth, I mean steadily and quietly as opposed to an all out war.

They're well down the path of buying up everything they want at the same time as making nations dependent on debt to them.
no need to fire a single shot.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3423

Dilbert_X wrote:

China is catching up, and as Chinese gear is cheap as shit I'm sure they get a lot more for the money.

China has deployed its forces fairly successfully - Korea and Vietnam - they didn't lose anyway.

Now they're becoming more belligerent and reaching outwards.
china sided with allies in korea and vietnam. in both cases they were popular movements with widespread popular support. why do you keep presenting them as ‘the aggressor’ for defending socialists on their doorstep? what business did america have in vietnam for fuck’s sake, other than pure ideology and their own vested interests?

i’m not siding with communist china or suggesting north korea is a swell place. but how fucking blinkered do you have to be to scaremonger about china supporting popular elected governments on their doorstep? america and macarthur wanted to nuke the korean peninsula into a permanent stone age ffs. but you’re afraid of china because their military make glossy tv spots. OK.

Last edited by uziq (2021-07-28 06:23:26)

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