uziq
Member
+492|3422
of course it’s economic! a country that spends its tax money on military hardware for the police rather than social care … how do you then analyse ‘the interaction’ whereby over-armed and gung-ho police overwhelmingly shoot the poorest and most desperate?

the entire system of racist policing has a long economic history in segregation, jim crow, and of course slavery. how the fuck do you disentangle police forces from the economic system, first and foremost the system of exploitation which placed black bodies at the bottom in the first place? the police of the states have been ENFORCERS of an ECONOMIC order since the plantations and rounding up escaped slaves, my guy.

lmao ffs. i’ll wait for you to reason there with your elevated mind.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 15:57:40)

Larssen
Member
+99|1857

uziq wrote:

‘different perspectives are valuable maaaan’ = how do i insert my feelings as a white european into the centre of this debate. i must surely have something equally insightful and clever to say about the experience of racism!

turns out you add basically nothing. your posts are an almost wilful and dishonest exercise in mischaracterising BLM. climbing down and rolling back on your statements as ‘just jokes’ or ‘knowingly exaggerated language’ is pretty transparent.

time and time again you’ve expressed your basic discomfort at ‘black lives matter’ as a saying; you’ve spoken about being made uncomfortable by sweeping comparisons between the USA and europe, despite the very shared and entwined modern histories at play, despite them both being inventions of a modern world system, both being truly characteristic of an epoch. well too bad! maybe you could listen to someone else and learn a little rather than stroking yourself and talking about how ‘valuable’ your brand of analysis is to the debate. it is not.
I reckon I've been rational about all this so far. You're the one blowing smoke out the ears and throwing around shit like 'white anxiety' to try and shut down any sort of discussion.
Larssen
Member
+99|1857

uziq wrote:

of course it’s economic! a country that spends its tax money on military hardware for the police rather than social care … how do you then analyse ‘the interaction’ whereby over-armed and gung-ho police overwhelmingly shoot the poorest and most desperate?

the entire system of racist policing has a long economic history in segregation, jim crow, and of course slavery. how the fuck do you disentangle police forces from the economic system, first and foremost the system of exploitation which placed black bodies at the bottom in the first place? the police of the states have been ENFORCERS of an ECONOMIC order since the plantations and rounding up escaped slaves, my guy.

lmao ffs. i’ll wait for you to reason there with your elevated mind.
I think you and I have very different interpretations on what an economic dimension entails here. You keep referring to how 'defund the police' is an indirect statement referring to the fact that actually, people over there should invest more in social work programs, the benefits system, that the police itself should be reformed (how you're going to achieve reform without investment, I as a bureaucrat don't fucking know but hey, try it).

The slogan isn't 'reform the police', isn't 'invest in our communities' or whatever - it's 'defund the police' uziq. To most people in the protest it will mean exactly what it appears to mean at face value. Your imagination that you're going to run into a BLM protest and bear witness to a lofty critique of society's spending habits and the ills of capitalism is about as detached as I imagine a stuffy editor can be.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-06-17 16:08:39)

uziq
Member
+492|3422
you want to emphasise post-ww2 history to make the point that ‘whiteness doesn’t matter in europe like it does in the states’. a pretty convenient historical demarcation considering a nazi germany was to a large extent a white supremacist state.

but okay let’s emphasise post-1950. the great era of post -colonialism and neo-colonialism. are you really telling me the deep geopolitical relations and social structures that persisted in europe from the great age of colonial expansion were … suddenly no longer relevant in 1950? this is absolutely laughable. i know germany committed to an act of national self-forgetting, but really now.

‘hmm, why are all these black and arab people in france disproportionately at the bottom of the ladder? there must be some recent factors from modern history. france has never seen race, after all.’

i literally don’t even know how to engage with such asinine analysis. colonies and the global economic order are tightly interwoven with race relations.
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
nazi germany was a GERMANIC SUPREMACIST state. The fucking jews were white people uziq
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

of course it’s economic! a country that spends its tax money on military hardware for the police rather than social care … how do you then analyse ‘the interaction’ whereby over-armed and gung-ho police overwhelmingly shoot the poorest and most desperate?

the entire system of racist policing has a long economic history in segregation, jim crow, and of course slavery. how the fuck do you disentangle police forces from the economic system, first and foremost the system of exploitation which placed black bodies at the bottom in the first place? the police of the states have been ENFORCERS of an ECONOMIC order since the plantations and rounding up escaped slaves, my guy.

lmao ffs. i’ll wait for you to reason there with your elevated mind.
I think you and I have very different interpretations on what an economic dimension entails here. You keep referring to how 'defund the police' is an indirect statement referring to the fact that actually, people over there should invest more in social work programs, the benefits system, that the police itself should be reformed (how you're going to achieve reform without investment, I as a bureaucrat don't fucking know but hey, try it).

The slogan isn't 'reform the police', isn't 'invest in our communities' or whatever - it's 'defund the police' uziq. To most people in the protest it will mean exactly what it appears to mean at face value. Your imagination that you're going to run into a BLM protest and bear witness to a lofty critique of society's spending habits and the ills of capitalism is about as detached as I imagine a stuffy editor can be.
oh my god. why don’t you read their fucking website.

‘how you achieve reform without investment i don’t know …’.

you persistently go out your way to just not understand the concept of defunding the police. it’s not even a complicated notion and yet you don’t want to know. i honestly don’t know what to say to you.

lofty critique of society’s spending habits? they see the nation’s tax wealth being spent on public guardians which murder them whilst their communities go to shit. it’s not exactly sniffy cosmopolitans talking disdainfully about ‘spending habits’. it’s basic tax and spend. you are absolutely hopeless.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
Schrodinger's Black Lives Matter: Completely ignorant of what they mean and say but also made up of ivory tower liberals with a vast agenda at the same time.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
They all voted for Sanders, truly.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Larssen wrote:

nazi germany was a GERMANIC SUPREMACIST state. The fucking jews were white people uziq
jews were never considered as white in the context of 20th century racism, least of all by nazis or ethno-nationalists. you’re really telling me aryans = germans? LMAO. guess that explains all the borrowed nordic iconography and runes.

to deny that europe more generally has a history of white  supremacism is just fucking hilarious. good lord you really missed the social attitudes that attended conquest and colonisation, didn’t you? part of the entire ideological justification for colonialism was the natural eminence of the white race ffs. you've really got your work cut out to explain to me that 'race doesn't cut through in europe like it does in the states'.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 16:25:31)

uziq
Member
+492|3422

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Schrodinger's Black Lives Matter: Completely ignorant of what they mean and say but also made up of ivory tower liberals with a vast agenda at the same time.
it's disingenuous to make out it's an ivory tower phenomenon, or has been hijacked that way.

even left-liberal darlings like AOC and ilhan omar can hardly be construed as being 'ivory tower' or 'coastal elites'. they were grassroots.

the leaders and figureheads of BLM are not exactly ivy league liberals with a 'vast agenda'.

not to say that any broad social movement doesn't attract the a coalition of people, some less savoury and palatable than others. but, again, because anarchists piggy-backed on the protests, doesn't invalidate the central point of BLM. because a bunch of well-meaning bienpensants in NYC suddenly 'identify' with BLM, doesn't invalidate the central point.
Larssen
Member
+99|1857

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

nazi germany was a GERMANIC SUPREMACIST state. The fucking jews were white people uziq
jews were never considered as white in the context of 20th century racism, least of all by nazis or ethno-nationalists. you’re really telling me aryans = germans? LMAO. guess that explains all the borrowed nordic iconography and runes.

to deny that europe more generally has a history of white  supremacism is just fucking hilarious. good lord you really missed the social attitudes that attended conquest and colonisation, didn’t you?
This is really some revisionist shit you're trying to pull now. Jew, Roma, Slav, Polish, Black, Indigenous American - they were all various types of sub-humans to the nazi's. Among their subhuman classification, their worst enemies, considered best dead, were all completely white. They were forced to wear the stars of david because you weren't able to tell who's a jew just by physical appearance. They looked like us. Black people were actually treated better than jews at the time.

Yes, they were racist as shit, but above all they were germanic supremacist - racist to everything that wasn't full blooded german. The scandinavians and dutch came closest afterwards, everyone else was looked down upon in a long ladder with jews at the bottom. I can't tell you if they valued a slav more than a black person or a chinese person, I don't think they distinguished much.

Last edited by Larssen (2021-06-17 16:25:36)

uziq
Member
+492|3422
clearly none of nazi race science was 'scientific' in an objective sense. but their hierarchy was clearly a continuation of deeply embedded assumptions about white people being the best – an attitude that came from THE AGE OF EUROPEAN EMPIRES. which is exactly my fucking point. the nazi death cult's bizarre taxonomies and hierarchies from 'pure aryan' downwards came, after all, from a gradient of supposed 'purity'. aryans were the best because they were THE MOST WHITE.

from mein kampf:

‘The last visible trace of the former master people is often seen in the lighter skin colour which its blood left behind in the subjugated race ...’ (p. 265).
tell me again it wasn't about 'whiteness', though.

jews were never considered as part of the 'white' ethnicity and have consistently been othered by racists throughout modern history. hitler in mein kampf LITERALLY insisted that jews were not a religious group but a separate race. the nazis did NOT think of them as part of the white race (as misbegotten as their own notions might have been). why the hell do you think nazi propaganda and cartoons went to such lengths to stress the physical differences between aryans and jews if 'jews were white'? all that talk of 'race-parasites', 'germs', and so on – you know, foreign bodies? odd way to talk about white people isn't it? jesus christ use your head.

‘Race, however, does not lie in the language, but exclusively in the blood, which no one knows better than the Jew’ (p. 283) [...] ‘He poisons the blood of others, but preserves his own’ (p. 272)
this is a stupid digression. you need to think again about the long implications of racial thinking in modern european history. declaring that europe is 'colour-blind' and things like 'white passing' don't happen here, is just hilarious. explain that concept to a mixed-race person or a jew in 18th or 19th century france or the netherlands. it was incredibly important for (newly) bourgeois non-whites to pass as white and to become 'acceptably' european during this time. did you miss the dreyfus affair? lmao.

both the economic systems of colonial/post-colonial europe AND plantation/post-emancipation USA, inasmuch as they can even be considered as separate things, are deeply implicated with race. your emphasis on 'recent history being more important' is totally misguided. it's the same capitalist engine that brings in people from the periphery for the purposes of economic exploitation, thus ensuring their social inferiority. migrant workers and their communities have the exact same social relation to the dominant culture as slaves or colonial subjects. it is primarily economic and always has been.

this uneasy proximity of an often-times racist capitalism to the birth and rise of liberal democracies is the WHOLE REASON why BLM's message cuts through to so many western nations today. you are going so far out of your way to miss this basic point when you talk about the 'cultural differences' between the USA and, say, belgium. you're really going to talk about the cultural differences between belgians and americans and not, er, the fact that both countries in their modern histories had huge slave-plantation systems using african labour? hahaha oh my god.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 17:01:13)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
In other interesting BLM stuff, my town is celebrating the fact that for the first time they hired black female cops. They had had token black male cops and women cops but this is a first for a black woman. Pretty crazy it took this long.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
Uziq ffs - the Roma were white. The jews were physically white. The russians were white. The polish were white. The balkans was full of white people. At least half of the physically white population on the planet were deemed sworn enemies and headed for extermination as far as the nazis were concerned. There's some historical link with european white supremacy, but I'd like you to consider a moment that Germany was a latecomer to colonialism and didn't at all partake in much of that at all seeing as the German state didn't even exist until 1871. Germany was Europe's laughing stock until Bismarck, or so they felt, and german ethnic nationalism was one of the main driving forces behind unification. The following supercharged nationalism, in part inspired by latecoming competition for colonies, became a bedrock for nazism. That nationalism was above all and primarily directed in competition to other European powers. Africa was a sideshow to that. Ethnic national german identity - against all other Europeans - was the main show. There was no shared brotherhood in whiteness. White supremacy completely misses the mark when talking about nazism.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
ethnic national german identity against all other europeans was the main show? so that's why hitler placed the nordic races at number one?

a pointless digression with no bearing on BLM anyway.

might i suggest you read mein kampf if you want to get your head around how hitler considered race? the whiter you were, the more phenotypically 'nordic', that is, the 'purer' you were. slavs, romas, polish were all 'mongrelised' to some degree. it wasn't only about skin pigmentation. and the jews were resolutely NOT considered white by nazi race science.

there is an entire fucking chapter in mein kampf about nation and blood and hitler talks, at extreme and odious length, about 'jewish blood'. jews were NOT considered to be part of the same race as fucking germans ... christ almighty.

as for 'germany missed european colonialism and racist attitudes'. you kicked off modern genocide with the hereros. read a book. like all african colonialism it was propped up by a sense that the white race were the most 'evolved'. miscegenation and race mixing was a huge taboo in germany since way before the nazis elevated bad race science to a killing principle. ask a schwarze deutsch now after 3 or 4 generations if they feel 'fully german' and then explain to me why BLM doesn't have a point because 'it comes from america and europe doesn't see race'.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 17:12:38)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
Weirdly, I don't actually own a copy of Mein Kampf. I heard it is a bad read. I would like a version with notes. I don't actually care what Hitler has to say but would like the context for it. I heard they were making such a version recently.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

uziq wrote:

as for 'germany missed european colonialism and racist attitudes'. you kicked off modern genocide with the hereros. read a book. like all african colonialism it was propped up by a sense that the white race were the most 'evolved'. ask a schwarze deutsch now after 3 or 4 generations if they feel 'fully german' and then explain to me why BLM doesn't have a point because 'it comes from america and europe doesn't see race'.
Germany actually had a major role in the ultimate partioning of Africa.

The Berlin Conference of 1884–1885, also known as the Congo Conference (German: Kongokonferenz) or West Africa Conference (Westafrika-Konferenz),[1] regulated European colonization and trade in Africa during the New Imperialism period and coincided with Germany's sudden emergence as an imperial power. The conference was organized by Otto von Bismarck, the first chancellor of Germany. Its outcome, the General Act of the Berlin Conference, can be seen as the formalisation of the Scramble for Africa, but some scholars of history warn against an overemphasis of its role in the colonial partitioning of Africa and draw attention to bilateral agreements concluded before and after the conference.[2][3][4] The conference contributed to ushering in a period of heightened colonial activity by European powers, which eliminated or overrode most existing forms of African autonomy and self-governance.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Conference
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3422
yep yep. as i said, it comes down to this:

this uneasy proximity of an often-times racist capitalism to the birth and rise of liberal democracies is the WHOLE REASON why BLM's message cuts through to so many western nations today. you are going so far out of your way to miss this basic point when you talk about the 'cultural differences' between the USA and, say, belgium. you're really going to talk about the cultural differences between belgians and americans and not, er, the fact that both countries in their modern histories had huge slave-plantation systems using african labour? hahaha oh my god.
the western model that we celebrate so much today was only possible, only attained pre-eminence, through an era of capitalist expansion and extraction. and the ideology that fuelled such a global 'grab' was outwardly racist, at times on religious grounds (converting heathens), but more often using first 'enlightenment' and then 'darwinist' scientific principles.

the economic engine of europe's and the new world's development was racist in character. the institutions and structures which persist to this day, in governance, in policing, in universities, in the law courts, in every aspect of that 'developed' civic world, was funded by capitalist exploitation, and was structurally racist. and this persists to the present-day, modern era. even ex-colonial subjects in places like french indochina/vietnam or the british west indies could never hope to be accepted in the post-imperial centre, being restricted to becoming only model citizens in model schools in the peripheries. these groups have been and still are excluded and subaltern.

i literally cannot believe a european is going to sit here today and scoff at BLM as an 'american import', acting affronted as if it's a belgian presented with french fries and ketchup. the message that 'black lives matter' has valence in many western nations, especially those, seemingly like germany and belgium, that prefer not to examine their recent history.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 17:23:51)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

It's not the only "American export" we've had to hear about from Larssen, though. IIRC, Cats was supposedly a bad product of American origin in the other thread.

If it's something gaudy or disagreeable to a Euro, I guess it must be American.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

BLM is very concerned with economic critique you dipshit. that’s why they want to DEFUND the police. it’s not merely finger-pointing at identity groups. they want previously racist, capitalist societies to be more fair! equitable! inclusive! jesus christ do you even listen to
your own arguments? do you really think a movement that protests the private prison industry is economically blind? Ffs go and read something.
The police and its interaction with society is not an economic dimension.
also this is just such an astonishingly bad take. the more i read it, the less i can believe it.

why do you think so much news coverage and right-wing outrage over BLM focuses on the destruction of property and looting? the entire social point of the movement is quickly passed over, and instead you see news coverage of the deployment of police forces in overwhelming numbers and using aggressive tactics, all to protect property

the matter of the overgeared police forces of the US, deployed to brutalise peaceful protestors and protect businesses, doesn’t have an ‘economic dimension’. who are the police FOR? ‘to protect and to serve’. whom? the owners?

now think of this: every chain store or business that got burned or looted in the BLM protests (not a large number, though your rhetoric makes out it was a national conflagration) all likely claimed insurance or were supported by crowdfunding campaigns. the police dispersed peaceful protests in order to protect businesses and order. contrast that with the tulsa race riots, say, in which the police actively handed out weapons and materiel to white rioters, and in which not a single dollar was ever paid out in insurance to the black business owners.

but economics and policing never meet, do they?

did your formal studies just entirely skip over political economy? your analysis is always completely devoid of it. it's like you think politics is solely a matter of international treaties and legislative process.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-17 21:33:38)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
I thought Roma were ethnically Indian, thats why everyone hates them so much including the Romanians.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

now think of this: every chain store or business that got burned or looted in the BLM protests (not a large number, though your rhetoric makes out it was a national conflagration) all likely claimed insurance or were supported by crowdfunding campaigns.
Lol OK, burning out businesses is a victimless crime.

Most insurance policies have specific exclusions for arson, riot, insurrection, war etc.

Better hope BLM don't bring peace and love to your flat eh.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
yes, correct, the roma are not white. just like slavs technically are vikings/nordics who sailed down the volga and became barbaric russians or whatever. the nazi race science thing is a waste of time.

jews are not ‘white’ in any racialist worldview. nazis, white supremacists and neo-nazis are make a big point of the jew as a blood-race distinct from ‘pure’ aryan stock or whatever.

all european peoples have indo-aryan roots. another nonsense nazi escapade there, sending german scientists off to the himalayas and so on.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

now think of this: every chain store or business that got burned or looted in the BLM protests (not a large number, though your rhetoric makes out it was a national conflagration) all likely claimed insurance or were supported by crowdfunding campaigns.
Lol OK, burning out businesses is a victimless crime.

Most insurance policies have specific exclusions for arson, riot, insurrection, war etc.

Better hope BLM don't bring peace and love to your flat eh.
not a victimless crime, of course, but who has power and state protection in the racial dynamics of america?

and you are totally wrong.  a business owner can claim insurance in the event of arson, looting or rioting. burning down your own business for a cash-out, not so much. of course business insurance covers someone else destroying your fucking property!

Business property that has been damaged by riot, civil commotion. vandalism and fire are covered under virtually all businessowners and commercial insurance property policies. This typically includes damage to windows, doors, light fixtures, store windows and plate glass on office fronts. There is also coverage for the contents of the building such as furniture, office supplies, computers or machinery that may be either damaged or stolen.
https://www.iii.org/insuranceindustrybl … insurance/

as i said, it’s black americans who are left out of the insurance game, whether it’s health, business or whatever else. my original comparison is entirely apt.

Last edited by uziq (2021-06-18 00:55:43)

uziq
Member
+492|3422
https://www.axios.com/riots-cost-proper … cea9c.html

The vandalism and looting following the death of George Floyd at the hands of the Minneapolis police will cost the insurance industry more than any other violent demonstrations in recent history, Axios has learned.
'insurance companies never pay out for rioting and looting'.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/insurance- … 1622293201

Insurance Exclusions Left Black Tulsans Footing the Bill for the Massacre
Insurers pointed to an exclusionary clause that entailed a lack of liability in the event of a riot or invasion, preventing payouts on many claims
whups! turns out your sympathies should be for the black african americans who got scammed by the insurance companies, right?

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