Larssen
Member
+99|1857
The amount of movements in the mediterranean vis a vis the australian coastline is so many magnitudes larger I don't think the numbers are in any way comparable.

You 'prevent them dying at sea' only to put them in indefinite detention inside literal prisons, with little to no government accountability for their processing or welfare.

This is what we're talking about

https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_620%2C$height_414/t_crop_fill/q_86%2Cf_auto/757f88e059c1efea713d898dbc4981ee702bf724

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Nauru_regional_processing_facility_%287983320399%29.jpg/1200px-Nauru_regional_processing_facility_%287983320399%29.jpg

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/files/styles/poster/s3/2019-02/58136.jpg?uG4cnNVA0KAuU_bksBshtA8m5slqqVLU&itok=QlReLIDu
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
That was all dismantled years ago, it had the desired effect of discouraging economic migrants from setting off and drowning at sea.

Still, it looks a lot plusher than what the 5.6 million Palestinian refugees have endured for the last 75 years.

https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2018/05/articles/main/20180505_map504.jpg

https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2018/11/09/thumbs_b_c_ef278fb11a72c005d5a3833a0cf45f75.jpg?v=171600

Where's your outrage now?

The key is to stop assholes fucking up the world and creating refugees in the first place, isn't that the UN's main purpose?
Not sitting back and letting it happen then trying to resettle the millions displaced.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

1 year later, police dislocating the shoulder and fracturing the humerus of a 73 year-old-woman with dementia. I don't really recommend watching the videos, they're just here for reference.

June 26 2020:

Laughing at the footage afterwards ("haha did you hear the pop?" "I could watch this all day"):

Cops Laughed After Abusing Woman With Dementia(TYT)


Lawsuit:

Colorado woman with dementia sues police over arrest (AP)


Hollis, are you still lurking? Is this another one of those cop grey areas where we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the boys in blue? Can you provide another pro bono analysis?
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

That was all dismantled years ago, it had the desired effect of discouraging economic migrants from setting off and drowning at sea.

Still, it looks a lot plusher than what the 5.6 million Palestinian refugees have endured for the last 75 years.

https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2018/05/articles/main/20180505_map504.jpg

https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2018/11/09/thumbs_b_c_ef278fb11a72c005d5a3833a0cf45f75.jpg?v=171600

Where's your outrage now?

The key is to stop assholes fucking up the world and creating refugees in the first place, isn't that the UN's main purpose?
Not sitting back and letting it happen then trying to resettle the millions displaced.
whatabouttery at its fucking insipid finest. 'let's get really angry about 3000 syrians per year because LOOK AT PALESTINE!'

you can be outraged and/or sympathetic about both issues, dilbert. they are not exclusive choices. the general idea(s) underlying the UN's refugee policies is, in fact, universalist in nature and precisely tries to extend the same rights to everyone, regardless of the particularities of their situation. hence innocent syrian families and innocent palestinians are deserving of the same basic rights (and right to seek refuge).

instead nations ike greece are engaging in sadistic 'pushback' policies, deploying their coastguard and navy to ... rough up sea-crossing migrants, slap them about a bit, and abandon them at sea. what an amazing use of time and money, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ … ees-at-sea

The legal case claims that in an operation of unprecedented size and sophistication, instead of helping the stranded people onboard, a Greek search and rescue vessel and two small patrol boats stalled the smuggler’s boat for five hours until speedboats carrying masked commandos arrived. Several passengers claim they were beaten in the ensuing incident.

Those onboard were separated into two groups and taken to two large coastguard boats, where armed crews of between 10 and 15 men, most wearing balaclavas, searched them and confiscated belongings including phones, passports and money.

The passengers were then reportedly forced on to several small life rafts, towed back to Turkish waters and abandoned at sea without food, water, life jackets or any means to call for help. By the time they were picked up by the Turkish coastguard, their ordeal had lasted more than 24 hours.

“It was like watching a movie. The men from the speedboats jumped onboard screaming and shouting, they all had guns and knives and were wearing black and masks,” said Mahmoud, a witness from Syria whose name has been changed.

Last edited by uziq (2021-04-27 05:40:00)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

instead nations ike greece are engaging in sadistic 'pushback' policies, deploying their coastguard and navy to ... rough up sea-crossing migrants, slap them about a bit, and abandon them at sea. what an amazing use of time and money, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ … ees-at-sea

The legal case claims that in an operation of unprecedented size and sophistication, instead of helping the stranded people onboard, a Greek search and rescue vessel and two small patrol boats stalled the smuggler’s boat for five hours until speedboats carrying masked commandos arrived. Several passengers claim they were beaten in the ensuing incident.

Those onboard were separated into two groups and taken to two large coastguard boats, where armed crews of between 10 and 15 men, most wearing balaclavas, searched them and confiscated belongings including phones, passports and money.

The passengers were then reportedly forced on to several small life rafts, towed back to Turkish waters and abandoned at sea without food, water, life jackets or any means to call for help. By the time they were picked up by the Turkish coastguard, their ordeal had lasted more than 24 hours.

“It was like watching a movie. The men from the speedboats jumped onboard screaming and shouting, they all had guns and knives and were wearing black and masks,” said Mahmoud, a witness from Syria whose name has been changed.
Also nothing compared with what Israel routinely does.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

ah, yes, israel, noted anti-immigration country with a hard line on refugees.
Israel doesn't take actual refugees though does it? It has a nicely racist migration policy, but takes no actual refugees at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_p … n_refugees
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
no one is talking about israel. how is it relevant to europe’s treatment of refugees from libya (for which they are indirectly responsible) or syria (which had also become a focus of geopolitical will)?

you sound like a totally unhinged crank.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Been dealing with whataboutism a lot in recent days, with Biden calling out the Armenian genocide. "The US lives in a glass hou-" why yes it does, let's talk about that too. "...well, Turkey is an all-" a strategic ally. "It should have been handled diplomatically!" Like a century of opportunities for Turkey to allow it to be handled diplomatically. "ERDOGAN IS SURROUNDED BY ENEMIES!" Why are American conservatives such staunch defenders of this guy all of a sudden? Love to talk about your oppressed Irish ancestors or whatever and the plight of Christian people in the Muslim sphere of influence on other occasions. Big fan of of that Lawrence of Arabia movie.

"...it happened years ago. It's so worthless to dwell upon."

Literal shower-class arguments. The contents of some of these interactions would 100% fit in those fake discussion texts ending with "and then everyone clapped."
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
At this point anything that pisses off Erdogan is an A+ move in my book.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

One of the guys I'm talking about, in a rather surprise move the other day put a ton of effort into trying to pronounce Erdogan correctly (still got it wrong, but at least closer to American pronunciation than Bush Guide). This same person made a huge deal about Buttigieg being difficult to pronounce.

I am guessing that the Armenian genocide is being made into a Republicans vs. Democrats thing now despite that it was avoided by presidents from both parties prior to Biden, and that some conservative outlets are now busy polishing Erdogan's knob. I'll have to take a look. If true, man.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

no one is talking about israel. how is it relevant to europe’s treatment of refugees from libya (for which they are indirectly responsible) or syria (which had also become a focus of geopolitical will)?

you sound like a totally unhinged crank.
You were whingeing about Australia's treatment of migrants, and apparently I'm the crank complaining about a country on the other side of the world.

If you want an example of a racist pariah nation which mistreats migrants and ignores its international obligations on refugees really Israel is the best place to start.
A few years of White Australia policy is nothing compared to coming up to 100 years of jewish Israel policy.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i expect liberal democracies to be able to do their bit, as part of their historical duty and as part of their present UN obligations, yes.

what israel does or any other rogue or disputatious state chooses to do, does not excuse abuses in another country. that is literally whatabouttery.

ironically the sort of argument you practice is the modus operandi of sino-shills and CCP propagandists all over the internet. 'yes we may be committing human rights atrocities but so did europe in 1944 so nur'. stunning argument.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Australia more than meets its UN obligations, no human rights atrocities here.

Go bother Netanyahu.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

Australia more than meets its UN obligations, no human rights atrocities here.

Go bother Netanyahu.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ … d-refugees

UN body condemns Australia for illegal detention of asylum seekers and refugees

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n … ration-act

UN body says Australia breached human rights laws and needs to review Migration Act

https://www.unhcr.org/uk/news/briefing/ … rates.html

UNHCR urges Australia to evacuate off-shore facilities as health situation deteriorates

... are you sure about that?

develop better skills of analysis and argument than whatabouttery and other lame-shit diversionary tactics. australia's record isn't unblemished and the actions of israel mean diddly squat in considering australia's own policies on refugees.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty mild stuff really, refugees are in indefinite 'detention' and camps that aren't ideal all over the world.
The alternative was do nothing about the flood of migrants and see thousands of them drown every year.

Its not as if we're driving them off their land and knee-capping their children.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i find it strange that you play a violin adagio for the poor palestinians three days a week and then cheer on fascists in europe over ‘the threat of islam’ on the other four. how’s all that cognitive dissonance working out for you?

nevermind that refugees fleeing syria or libya have the exact same religious beliefs and are fleeing for the exact same humanitarian reasons. somehow they’re persona non grata. i guess it’s easier to pretend to care when they stay in the middle east and just make for shocking news footage.

‘simply awful what’s happening to the palestinians. what’s that, some of them would prefer refuge in australia? not on the watch of MY white christian civilisation!!!’

Last edited by uziq (2021-04-29 07:17:44)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

NC doing a bit of work:

Transgender youth sports bill thrown out for lack of a problem, NC House speaker says 4/29
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/polit … 34409.html

Lawmakers decided not to move forward with a controversial bill that would prevent transgender girls from playing on female sports teams.

House Speaker Tim Moore confirmed to The News & Observer Thursday that House Bill 358, also known as the Save Women’s Sports Act, is dead after legislative staff found that there had been no complaints in North Carolina on this topic.

“A wise legislature does not go out looking for social issues to tap,” Moore said.

The Associated Press first reported the sports bill had been set aside. Had it passed, North Carolina would have followed the lead of several states that have passed similar bills, drawing national media coverage and a response from the NCAA.
non-issue after all?

Release police body-cam video within 48 hours, Democrats say in new NC bill 4/28
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/polit … 64779.html

Democratic House and Senate members want to repeal a North Carolina law that requires a court order to view body-worn camera footage captured by law enforcement.

The call for change comes as protesters line the streets in Elizabeth City demanding the release of body-cam video in the fatal shooting of Andrew Brown Jr. by Pasquotank County sheriff’s deputies.

“It’s also more than unfortunate that the death of Mr Brown, and the actions of authorities afterwards have clearly demonstrated the inadequacy and fallacies of our current body-cam release law,” said Rep. Amos Quick, a Guilford County Democrat, in a news conference Tuesday morning.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i find it strange that you play a violin adagio for the poor palestinians three days a week and then cheer on fascists in europe over ‘the threat of islam’ on the other four. how’s all that cognitive dissonance working out for you?

nevermind that refugees fleeing syria or libya have the exact same religious beliefs and are fleeing for the exact same humanitarian reasons. somehow they’re persona non grata. i guess it’s easier to pretend to care when they stay in the middle east and just make for shocking news footage.

‘simply awful what’s happening to the palestinians. what’s that, some of them would prefer refuge in australia? not on the watch of MY white christian civilisation!!!’
The Palestinians haven't historically been particularly muslim or extreme, so your argument doesn't matter.

Anyway, lets not focus on the causes of refugees fleeing their country, lets focus on rehoming them at someone else's expense.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

There's a ticking clock on these things. Why not help the refugees while they need help, while the government deliberates about what they can do for the situation abroad? Unless you're literally Scrooge muttering about reducing the surplus population or whatever.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Fingers in the pie:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/me1930.gif
uziq
Member
+492|3422
jordan already has over 2 million palestinian refugees. australia has 9,000. but apparently australia is full and the refugees should ask more of their neighbouring countries.

i don't have a problem with australia specifically, 'a country on the other side of the world'. i am saying that liberal democracies, especially those with colonial or historical responsibilities, can afford to take 3,000 refugees a year. the humanitarian crisis and gargantuan cost is already being dealt with by states in the middle-east, or land bridges like turkey.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Really Israel should be required to return their homeland to them.

Isn't that what multiple UN resolutions say?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
right and the world should fold their arms and pout and ignore all refugees until we *checks notes* fix the sources of all the world’s ills.

i thought engineers were pragmatic?
Larssen
Member
+99|1857

Dilbert_X wrote:

Really Israel should be required to return their homeland to them.

Isn't that what multiple UN resolutions say?
Why do you keep deflecting, god. Whenever you're questioned on the blatantly obvious hypocrisy in your views it's "JEWS!". Grow up ffs

Last edited by Larssen (2021-04-30 09:21:06)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

right and the world should fold their arms and pout and ignore all refugees until we *checks notes* fix the sources of all the world’s ills.

i thought engineers were pragmatic?
The pragmatic solution is to solve the problem at its root.

So send refugees back to their homes, not expect every other country in the world to shoulder the burden of a tiny selfish minority.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

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