Of all of the places in the world, the U.S. is probably among a handful of places that could have pulled off economic autarky until this COVID thing blew over.
- SuperJail Warden
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i have never advocated open borders and the free movement of people without tests, safety measures, tracking, etc. why would i? are you fucking retarded?
i countered your constant assertions that all flights should be banned and the entire world should go into a lockdown. you never spoke about smart quarantines and nations devising their own, bespoke measures. that was MY line, NOT yours. you have always advocated the ‘oh if only we all took a break for 3 months globally, all at once, we could have finished this thing’. your position was absolutist and unrealistic, NOT mine.
i’ve never expected for people to move freely without restrictions or respecting border measures. i have just spent THREE MONTHS myself arranging to go through an extremely intensive (and expensive) quarantine process, you dummie. jesus christ, i swear to god you just want attention half the time.
get a different argument. this is not a good one.
i countered your constant assertions that all flights should be banned and the entire world should go into a lockdown. you never spoke about smart quarantines and nations devising their own, bespoke measures. that was MY line, NOT yours. you have always advocated the ‘oh if only we all took a break for 3 months globally, all at once, we could have finished this thing’. your position was absolutist and unrealistic, NOT mine.
i’ve never expected for people to move freely without restrictions or respecting border measures. i have just spent THREE MONTHS myself arranging to go through an extremely intensive (and expensive) quarantine process, you dummie. jesus christ, i swear to god you just want attention half the time.
get a different argument. this is not a good one.
also that’s not true. all long-term visa holders could enter those countries. it’s a lot more than 0.01% of their people.Dilbert_X wrote:
There's a big difference between "open borders" which you've been advocating and 99.9% closed borders with very limited, controlled, quarantined essential travel mostly for citizens only which is what most countries including SK and Taiwan have had for almost a year - except Britain and America which have had largely open borders and are now looking like wastelands.
The rambling and confused arguments you've constructed around your self interest make little sense.
have you seen the flight schedule for korea’s two national airlines over the last year? i have. they have multiple flights per week to just about every major destination in the world. why would they do that if only 0.01% of returning nationals could get in?
their borders have been open to effectively many more foreigners than you make out. you are misconstruing things because you’ve hastily googled a few paragraphs, fancying an argument, without a clue what you’re saying. the taiwanese press releases even mention people with an ARC card being allowed in. that’s EVERYONE with a visa, you dumbass. anyone staying for longer than the 3-month tourist period needs an ARC registration.
both countries effectively banned visa-free travel. lots of countries have done that. i think canada has done that for most of the year, iirc. it’s not a ‘closed border’. many, many flights go to both destinations. their covid measures consist, instead, of good quarantine measures and day-to-day distancing. it is not reflective of your ‘close the borders’ strategy AT ALL.
Last edited by uziq (2021-01-06 15:47:43)
OK so you've never advocated for open borders?uziq wrote:
i have never advocated open borders and the free movement of people without tests, safety measures, tracking, etc. why would i? are you fucking retarded?
i countered your constant assertions that all flights should be banned and the entire world should go into a lockdown. you never spoke about smart quarantines and nations devising their own, bespoke measures. that was MY line, NOT yours. you have always advocated the ‘oh if only we all took a break for 3 months globally, all at once, we could have finished this thing’. your position was absolutist and unrealistic, NOT mine.
i’ve never expected for people to move freely without restrictions or respecting border measures. i have just spent THREE MONTHS myself arranging to go through an extremely intensive (and expensive) quarantine process, you dummie. jesus christ, i swear to god you just want attention half the time.
get a different argument. this is not a good one.
You're advocating for what we have now, which is 99% of flights cut and severe visa and quarantine restrictions?
Its very hard to keep track of what you're saying if you mix up definitions.
Fuck Israel
99% of flights aren’t cancelled?
what ‘severe visa restrictions’? i just got a visa to move to one of these countries for a year on a whim. was it severe? news to me.
an effective and well-organised quarantine process is not the same as saying it’s ‘severe’, either. people have been arriving in korea in high numbers all year. the quarantine and subsequent distancing measures just work. it’s just that simple. the borders have NOT been closed.
you’re literally arguing with someone who has been researching flights, visas, and covid restrictions for the better part of 4 months, based off a google search you did 10 minutes ago. incredible.
what ‘severe visa restrictions’? i just got a visa to move to one of these countries for a year on a whim. was it severe? news to me.
an effective and well-organised quarantine process is not the same as saying it’s ‘severe’, either. people have been arriving in korea in high numbers all year. the quarantine and subsequent distancing measures just work. it’s just that simple. the borders have NOT been closed.
you’re literally arguing with someone who has been researching flights, visas, and covid restrictions for the better part of 4 months, based off a google search you did 10 minutes ago. incredible.
Last edited by uziq (2021-01-06 15:50:49)
read my fucking posts oh my god.
Don't forget to take porn and drugs, or you won't get through it.uziq wrote:
i have just spent THREE MONTHS myself arranging to go through an extremely intensive (and expensive) quarantine process.
Also, don't take porn and drugs, they'll go through your phone and any other devices at the border and swab everything you have.
Fuck Israel
They're rambling and incomprehensibleuziq wrote:
read my fucking posts oh my god.
uziq wrote:
Open borders are great, every country should have open borders like SK and Taiwan
uziq wrote:
Obviously SK and Taiwan don't have open borders, that would be stupid, they're pretty well 99% closed
Fuck Israel
okay so you're resorting to acting like a 12-year-old again, having expended your efforts at being tiresome after your 'taiwan flight restriction' google search. have a biscuit, there there.
there is simply no way you can twist it. you have been advocating for shutting down air travel and borders for the entirety of the pandemic. meanwhile these two countries have had international air travel, albeit on a reduced schedule, for the entire year too. people are just funnelled into very good, very effective quarantine measures. i have no problem with that; i've tacitly if not always explicitly been fully in support of them. i have precisely argued against your 'the world needs to shut down for 3 months and we can finish covid' line. it has always been moronic, and you remain moronic on this subject.
please stop trying to make out that 99% of flights have been cancelled and only the most important VIP diplomats and visa holders can get in. i'm moving there on a whim after applying one day with no greater reason to have a visa than 'i want to look around for a bit'. come ON. you can't make out that korea has 'closed borders' when i am a literal counter-example to that claim. it just doesn't work, chap.
there there, there there.
there is simply no way you can twist it. you have been advocating for shutting down air travel and borders for the entirety of the pandemic. meanwhile these two countries have had international air travel, albeit on a reduced schedule, for the entire year too. people are just funnelled into very good, very effective quarantine measures. i have no problem with that; i've tacitly if not always explicitly been fully in support of them. i have precisely argued against your 'the world needs to shut down for 3 months and we can finish covid' line. it has always been moronic, and you remain moronic on this subject.
please stop trying to make out that 99% of flights have been cancelled and only the most important VIP diplomats and visa holders can get in. i'm moving there on a whim after applying one day with no greater reason to have a visa than 'i want to look around for a bit'. come ON. you can't make out that korea has 'closed borders' when i am a literal counter-example to that claim. it just doesn't work, chap.
there there, there there.
You're arguing about trivia, 99% closed is pretty much closed.
Fuck Israel
it isn't 99% closed. jesus christ. CHECK A FLIGHT SCHEDULE.
Googling quickly SK is 87% down, what the exact figures are today I don't know.
https://www.news18.com/news/auto/air-tr … 26939.html
I'm sure Taiwan and SK are transit points, neither seem to have 'open borders'.
NZ has reduced flights by 95%
Britain should be like NZ, cut flights by 95%, then you might get a grip on the pandemic, or bury your heads and carry on with the worst figures in the world, I don't care.
https://www.news18.com/news/auto/air-tr … 26939.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal … SKBN21908WTaiwan has already stopped all foreigners apart from residence permit holders from coming to the island and is quarantining for 14 days everyone arriving on the island.
From midnight on Tuesday, airline passengers will no longer be allowed to transit via Taiwan, until April 7.
I'm sure Taiwan and SK are transit points, neither seem to have 'open borders'.
NZ has reduced flights by 95%
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120573 … 5-per-centAir New Zealand has reduced its international flights by 95 per cent due to the impact coronavirus is having on travel demand and Government restrictions.
From March 30 to May 31, the national carrier will operate only a limited networ
The airline has slashed its international network to just 11 key routes to enable travel for essential workers, returning citizens and to keep air freight moving through important cargo corridors to North America and Asia.
Britain should be like NZ, cut flights by 95%, then you might get a grip on the pandemic, or bury your heads and carry on with the worst figures in the world, I don't care.
Fuck Israel
britain's approach to airports has always been fucked. we don't do any testing or have strict enough quarantine. i mentioned this only about 4-5 pages ago when i linked two twitter threads and compared the UK unfavourably to ... taiwan and korea's flight policies. whew we're really getting somewhere, aren't we? maybe read some.
we must have very different definitions of 'closed borders'. foreigners can still fly to and enter both of those countries. getting a long-term visa or permit is evidently not 'severe' or difficult. i filled out a form and paid the embassy a fee.
closing borders does not make any sense if you have high levels of community transmission and no track+trace system in place. which we don't. we gave a private company, serco, about £20 billion and then watched them and a bunch of management consultants scratch their heads and fuck it up. how many times do i have to repeat this?
we must have very different definitions of 'closed borders'. foreigners can still fly to and enter both of those countries. getting a long-term visa or permit is evidently not 'severe' or difficult. i filled out a form and paid the embassy a fee.
closing borders does not make any sense if you have high levels of community transmission and no track+trace system in place. which we don't. we gave a private company, serco, about £20 billion and then watched them and a bunch of management consultants scratch their heads and fuck it up. how many times do i have to repeat this?
Having open borders doesn't improve things though does it? I mean dur.
Fuck Israel
obviously. but having completely closed borders when EVIDENTLY quarantine+trace systems in places like south korea work perfectly well seems like an unnecessary economic harm, no?
it's like talking to a hockey puck.
it's like talking to a hockey puck.
Great, does the UK have a working quarantine+trace system yet?
Every country which has done well radically shut down its borders very early, then developed quarantine, tests, test and trace etc.
It took months to develop reliable tests IIRC. Total shutdown of travel, even if it means hipsters can't take a working holiday, is the right thing to do.
Every country which has done well radically shut down its borders very early, then developed quarantine, tests, test and trace etc.
It took months to develop reliable tests IIRC. Total shutdown of travel, even if it means hipsters can't take a working holiday, is the right thing to do.
Fuck Israel
dilderp knows best. drop the korean CDC an email. perhaps offer a small donation towards their airline industry?
I'll just get NZ to contact them, thanks for the suggestion.
Fuck Israel
China pissed and moaned about our harsh border stance early on but that vanished quickly once our death curve didn't grow.
Currently for those who are eligible to re-enter, it's 14 days minimum of isolation (at a 4+ star hotel...) and a test on days 3 and 12. The govt is now requiring a pre-departure negative test for travellers from high-risk areas. If you test positive at any stage it's off to a quarantine facility (2-4 star) where I'm told you have to wait for an additional 14 days then return 2 negative tests. All of these MQI facilities have not-shit food and free wifi/fibre, they're isolation/quarantine, not prison.
During the first lockdown, which was the only "full" lockdown (what UK has now with level 4), we could still go to the supermarket and other places to get essentials. In this time people maintained a 2 metre distance, sanitised their hands and wore masks. Because this was the only form of social interaction we got, it wasn't uncommon to see someone fully suited and booted just to get their groceries. I was still able to order a 24-pack of craft beer online, and also order bike parts from the UK...Lockdown doesn't mean everyone has to freeze in place pulling a silly face like when you were 8.
If it's anything over level 1, you have to register when you enter a business - that means leave your name, address & contact# on a register or use the Covid Tracer app which now has optional bluetooth proximity tracing built in.
It used to be the case that anyone wearing a mask in public was looked on as a weirdo. Now they're respected.
For a country which is the size and population of one state we have 25 deaths total and half of those were from a single rest home for dementia patients where they had do-not-rescussitate orders.
Yes the economy took a hit. But the "go hard, go early" approach worked, and now we don't have to deal with wartime casualty rates.
Lockdowns, social distancing, masks and border closures fucking work.
Currently for those who are eligible to re-enter, it's 14 days minimum of isolation (at a 4+ star hotel...) and a test on days 3 and 12. The govt is now requiring a pre-departure negative test for travellers from high-risk areas. If you test positive at any stage it's off to a quarantine facility (2-4 star) where I'm told you have to wait for an additional 14 days then return 2 negative tests. All of these MQI facilities have not-shit food and free wifi/fibre, they're isolation/quarantine, not prison.
During the first lockdown, which was the only "full" lockdown (what UK has now with level 4), we could still go to the supermarket and other places to get essentials. In this time people maintained a 2 metre distance, sanitised their hands and wore masks. Because this was the only form of social interaction we got, it wasn't uncommon to see someone fully suited and booted just to get their groceries. I was still able to order a 24-pack of craft beer online, and also order bike parts from the UK...Lockdown doesn't mean everyone has to freeze in place pulling a silly face like when you were 8.
If it's anything over level 1, you have to register when you enter a business - that means leave your name, address & contact# on a register or use the Covid Tracer app which now has optional bluetooth proximity tracing built in.
It used to be the case that anyone wearing a mask in public was looked on as a weirdo. Now they're respected.
For a country which is the size and population of one state we have 25 deaths total and half of those were from a single rest home for dementia patients where they had do-not-rescussitate orders.
Yes the economy took a hit. But the "go hard, go early" approach worked, and now we don't have to deal with wartime casualty rates.
Lockdowns, social distancing, masks and border closures fucking work.
we have all of those measures here and have experienced them in one form or another since at least last march. we have been through lockdowns ffs.
the problem is timing and a lack of organization. for the first wave there was no testing available and no tracing in place. during the summer recess, when every other country was gearing up and properly preparing itself, our govt were busy handing out contracts to their friends and grandstanding over brexit. we didn’t use the time and so, once again, the second and third round of lockdowns have been ineffective.
your measures aren’t unique. our politicians dither where yours took decisive action. yes, having 5 million people rather than 70 million probably does have something to do with that; locking down the world’s fifth largest economy is a bit different from putting red tape around the lord of the rings’ set. as i’ve said many times above, every country has a unique situation and it’s own economic profile. the U.K. has been hollowed out by years of austerity and privatisation and the support for renters/students/precariously employed just isn’t there. all of our emergency fiscal measures seemed designed to benefit landlords and barely honest business owners. go figure.
the quarantine system sounds identical to korea’s. it works. a virus that is active and detectable for 2-3 weeks can be filtered out using a 15 day isolation period. who knew? now remind me why, as dilbert recommends, all planes should be kept on the tarmac all over the world?
the problem is timing and a lack of organization. for the first wave there was no testing available and no tracing in place. during the summer recess, when every other country was gearing up and properly preparing itself, our govt were busy handing out contracts to their friends and grandstanding over brexit. we didn’t use the time and so, once again, the second and third round of lockdowns have been ineffective.
your measures aren’t unique. our politicians dither where yours took decisive action. yes, having 5 million people rather than 70 million probably does have something to do with that; locking down the world’s fifth largest economy is a bit different from putting red tape around the lord of the rings’ set. as i’ve said many times above, every country has a unique situation and it’s own economic profile. the U.K. has been hollowed out by years of austerity and privatisation and the support for renters/students/precariously employed just isn’t there. all of our emergency fiscal measures seemed designed to benefit landlords and barely honest business owners. go figure.
the quarantine system sounds identical to korea’s. it works. a virus that is active and detectable for 2-3 weeks can be filtered out using a 15 day isolation period. who knew? now remind me why, as dilbert recommends, all planes should be kept on the tarmac all over the world?
The key you keep refusing to accept was closing the borders early on.
Australia 'shut its borders' on March 20, Britain waited until May 22.
Besides that the UK response has been woeful and the behaviour of the public fairly poor, Cummings and now Rees-Mogg making a mockery of the whole thing haven't helped.
Australia 'shut its borders' on March 20, Britain waited until May 22.
Besides that the UK response has been woeful and the behaviour of the public fairly poor, Cummings and now Rees-Mogg making a mockery of the whole thing haven't helped.
Fuck Israel
i am very hesitant to blame a public who have been confounded by a labyrinth of u-turns and last minute decisions. there have been several huge furores in the last year to do with the timetabling of schools, universities, exams, and so on, as well as closing offices and re-opening them seemingly at a whim. at one point boris was nigh-on forcing everyone to return to the office despite there still being high levels of community transmission; a month later and we were talking ominously about full lockdowns once again. it has been trying and confusing at the best of times.
now we have a similarly puzzling tier-system in which people living 2 miles apart are expected to obey very different rules. up until about 2 months ago you could drive 5 miles and go have a drink in a pub in the next town over - whilst yours was experiencing blitz-like blackout rules. the tier system itself hasn't been rolled out evenly in england alone, let alone the rest of the united kingdom, who have similarly introduced severe rule changes upon crossing the welsh or scottish border (an everyday occurrence for anyone living in the border or marches counties). areas in the north, like manchester, have been in almost continual lockdown since march 2020, whilst areas in the south, notably london, have been mostly free despite having much higher r-numbers and rates of infection.
go figure. so no, i do not blame the public so much in this. we have our fair (and small) share of covid-protesting internet dimwits, but so do france, germany, spain, italy, even sierra leone if today's news is credible ...
i have no problem saying that UK airports should have introduced testing and safety measures right at the outset. you have been calling for worldwide bans on flights and general lockdowns throughout all of the last year, however. please don't act now like i'm the one who is egregiously wrong and missing the point, whereas you have some fine, nuanced proposal. all year you have been asking for economy-destroying measures and global freezes. please. give it a fucking rest.
now we have a similarly puzzling tier-system in which people living 2 miles apart are expected to obey very different rules. up until about 2 months ago you could drive 5 miles and go have a drink in a pub in the next town over - whilst yours was experiencing blitz-like blackout rules. the tier system itself hasn't been rolled out evenly in england alone, let alone the rest of the united kingdom, who have similarly introduced severe rule changes upon crossing the welsh or scottish border (an everyday occurrence for anyone living in the border or marches counties). areas in the north, like manchester, have been in almost continual lockdown since march 2020, whilst areas in the south, notably london, have been mostly free despite having much higher r-numbers and rates of infection.
go figure. so no, i do not blame the public so much in this. we have our fair (and small) share of covid-protesting internet dimwits, but so do france, germany, spain, italy, even sierra leone if today's news is credible ...
i have no problem saying that UK airports should have introduced testing and safety measures right at the outset. you have been calling for worldwide bans on flights and general lockdowns throughout all of the last year, however. please don't act now like i'm the one who is egregiously wrong and missing the point, whereas you have some fine, nuanced proposal. all year you have been asking for economy-destroying measures and global freezes. please. give it a fucking rest.
People are still holding parties and raves, its fucking dumb.
It took a while for tests to be developed, its taken a lot longer for rapid testing to be developed, allowing uncontrolled travel without isolation in the meantime was utterly fucking retarded. And I'm sure the postulated economic loss would have been far lower then having the country paralysed for what is likely to be 1.5-2 years.
While Britain has pretty well the worst figures you seem disinterested in learning any lessons. Weird.
It took a while for tests to be developed, its taken a lot longer for rapid testing to be developed, allowing uncontrolled travel without isolation in the meantime was utterly fucking retarded. And I'm sure the postulated economic loss would have been far lower then having the country paralysed for what is likely to be 1.5-2 years.
While Britain has pretty well the worst figures you seem disinterested in learning any lessons. Weird.
Fuck Israel
so you're reading the tabloid stories and presume to know how 'people' in the UK are acting. cute.
there are raves and parties all over. i have linked you news stories with anecdotes of the same in france, germany ... and australia. are 'people' in all those countries widely disobeying the rules and thus to blame? derp derp derp deeeeeeeerp.
more anecdotes, seeing as they're the highest form of argument for you: almost my entire social circle in bristol were employed in the arts and cultural sector. most of them were reliant on DJ'ing, putting on events, event promotion, artist PR, etc. for their incomes. none of them have been to a 'rave' or 'put on a party' in the last year. there have been several huge fundraising events to 'save our venues', which have remained shuttered for parties for almost the entire year. only recently have said venues put on very small, limited, socially distanced events with people sat metres apart at separate, screened tables. hardly 'going to raves', is it?
britain is in a dire situation, for many reasons. but it's not because people here are uniquely selfish or dim-witted and have been breaking all the rules. you exist in some tabloid land where every issue is reducible to pilloried figures and scapegoats.
there are raves and parties all over. i have linked you news stories with anecdotes of the same in france, germany ... and australia. are 'people' in all those countries widely disobeying the rules and thus to blame? derp derp derp deeeeeeeerp.
more anecdotes, seeing as they're the highest form of argument for you: almost my entire social circle in bristol were employed in the arts and cultural sector. most of them were reliant on DJ'ing, putting on events, event promotion, artist PR, etc. for their incomes. none of them have been to a 'rave' or 'put on a party' in the last year. there have been several huge fundraising events to 'save our venues', which have remained shuttered for parties for almost the entire year. only recently have said venues put on very small, limited, socially distanced events with people sat metres apart at separate, screened tables. hardly 'going to raves', is it?
britain is in a dire situation, for many reasons. but it's not because people here are uniquely selfish or dim-witted and have been breaking all the rules. you exist in some tabloid land where every issue is reducible to pilloried figures and scapegoats.